Florian Wirtz | Der Fußballgott | Der Fluch ist gebrochen!

NewGlory said:
Here I said it - this day and age (with prices actually going down) only an idiot would pay £100m for a player from Bundesliga. Risks are just too high. Looking like prime Messi in that league means very little when the player actually moves to EPL. Doesn't mean you can't sign players from Bundesliga but an English club with half a brain should never pay more than £70-75m for a player from Germany.

Liverpool owners are pretty smart and shrude, so it will be interesting what, if anything, actually happens
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You judge based on Chelsea's and United's success rate. Not out fault those two clubs have made a.competition out of the question who can ruin the biggest talent ;)
 
Zehner said:
You judge based on Chelsea's and United's success rate. Not out fault those two clubs have made a.competition out of the question who can ruin the biggest talent ;)
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Sure why not take a look at Liverpool's record signing striker instead.
 
He will be a stunning signing for Liverpool and by end of season amongst the best players in the league. Lad is definitely Real Madrid material. As much as I don't like Liverpool, I want to see him play in the PL. It's a coup for the league to get someone like him before his prime years.
 
Posh Red said:
And yet the British press are reporting a drastically lower fee. Typical :lol:
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Typical Liverpool journos who act like fans of the club they are reporting on. Unlike us who get shit stirrer Luckhurst and Stone who writes like he hates his job.
 
dinostar77 said:
He will be a stunning signing for Liverpool and by end of season amongst the best players in the league. Lad is definitely Real Madrid material. As much as I don't like Liverpool, I want to see him play in the PL. It's a coup for the league to get someone like him before his prime years.
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I'd rather not see a player in the PL that I rate highly playing for Liverpool than seeing them play in the PL for Liverpool.

I'm a United fan first and the league is waaaaaayyyyyyyy behind.

Wirtz won't make the league any more popular than it is, the league doesn't depend on individual players to make it popular or else La Liga would be the most popular league in the world by now as they have had the best 2 and most commercially successful players in their league for over a decade together with Ronaldo and Messi, and that's even before we talk about players before and since then. The Premier League has always had top players but not necesserily the very best in the world and when you look at the awards given, there's been what 3 ballon d'or winners in the whole history of the PL and 2 of them ended up in Real Madrid.

So yes Wirtz is a good player, but it's no coup, it makes zero difference to the league in popularity or commercially.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Revolutionary stuff. All those clubs who signed £100m+ players who flopped should have hired scouts first!
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It is very rare that a player of Wirtz' quality moves clubs because most take this step earlier.

The record transfers which flopped usually were either overhyped talents with very few seasons at top level before or prestige signings with no profound plan on how to integrate them.
 
Zehner said:
It is very rare that a player of Wirtz' quality moves clubs because most take this step earlier.

The record transfers which flopped usually were either overhyped talents with very few seasons at top level before or prestige signings with no profound plan on how to integrate them.
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*Presumed quality*

I think he looks a very good player but it's definitely not outside the realms of possibility that people could be using your second paragraph when talking about him in a few years.
 
simonhch said:
The money is one thing. This is very unlikely to prove good value for money. Just go and look at the top 20 most expensive transfers of all time, and you'll see that only about 3 are actually successes relative to their fees, and at least half are just straight up disasters. Of the others, you can say they played well for their new teams but didn't push their clubs any closer to their major objectives. So what was the point in spending so much on just one player when that intensifies the risk so greatly? Often there was no point. For context, Wirtz will move for the third largest transfer fee of all time.

The other thing is the quality of the recruitment. If you put the money aside - because I think that's a metric that will be almost impossible to ever qualify as a success - and just focus on the quality of the player being added to their squad; then this signing is sensational for them. He's a brilliant player who will probably get better. It's hard to see any world where he doesn't significantly improve them, although it's also true that there's no guarantee of that either.

Liverpool have often focused resources on signing fewer, but higher quality players that fit their exact needs. It's often involved substantial fees for players that were, at the time, slightly baulked at (VVD, Alisson), but a strategy that proved very successful, and much better than the "sign three players for the same price" approach that United often took, which ended up with just lots of mediocre players on high salaries and no improvement to our best XI. However, this is one situation - and my example is really strongly indicative of the scale of the fee they are paying - where I much prefer signing Cunha and Mbuemo for nearly the same money as just Wirtz. If you gave me the choice of the two scenarios, I would take Cunha and Mbuemo every day. For Liverpool, however, bringing in that one major difference maker to an already very strong squad, makes perfect sense, and I am sure they would take Wirtz over the combo of Cunha and Mbuemo.

Thing is, I think this will be looked as a great signing for them when one just looks at how he plays over the coming years; but I think he will likely be viewed as a disappointment or failure when he's looked at as a player that was signed for over a hundred million pounds. The size of the fee means that it's hard to win any value for money argument here. There are virtually no players, ever, who have justified a fee of this size, and that includes players who were better than Wirtz is now.

Liverpool have finally sat at the big boy table when it comes to transfers, and made their way onto that hallowed list of biggest all time transfers. Big d*ck player. Thing is, they are just as likely to discover that this list is in fact mostly a collection of over compensating Chairmen, poor due diligence, capricious fan driven fantasy signings, and hubris. Welcome to the club LFC.
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Sensible take and solid arguments. You are forgetting one thing, though, in regards to the value for money ratio. Wirtz is not just a supremely talented footballer. He is one of two golden boys of the German national team. And Germany (and by extension the German speaking areas in Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, etc.) is the biggest market in Europe, which is one of the reasons Bayern is only behind Barca for kit and merch sales: https://tmssl.akamaized.net//images...es-top-20-1741365356-162811.png?lm=1741365365
Liverpool increased their popularity massively in Germany when Klopp was their manager. Now that he left the interest may have begun to fade over time, but singing Wirtz will enable them to keep a foothold in the biggest European market, be it shirt sales, merch, online subscriptions, etc.
 
jadajos said:
Sensible take and solid arguments. You are forgetting one thing, though, in regards to the value for money ratio. Wirtz is not just a supremely talented footballer. He is one of two golden boys of the German national team. And Germany (and by extension the German speaking areas in Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, etc.) is the biggest market in Europe, which is one of the reasons Bayern is only behind Barca for kit and merch sales: https://tmssl.akamaized.net//images...es-top-20-1741365356-162811.png?lm=1741365365
Liverpool increased their popularity massively in Germany when Klopp was their manager. Now that he left the interest may have begun to fade over time, but singing Wirtz will enable them to keep a foothold in the biggest European market, be it shirt sales, merch, online subscriptions, etc.
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Wirtz is a completely normal, boring guy. A completely different character to Klopp. Wirtz has zero charisma. You will never really be able to push and position him in the media.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Wirtz is a completely normal, boring guy. A completely different character to Klopp. Wirtz has zero charisma. You will never really be able to push and position him in the media.
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Messi is also a boring character. Wirtz doesn't have to start his own perfume label or designer brand. If he doesn't bomb as a transfer and fulfills his potential for club and country he'll be marketable regardless.

Edit: or to use the more natural analogy - Musiala is also a quite boring character. Doesn't stop millions of teenagers to follow what he's doing at Bayern, though.
 
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OverratedOpinion said:
*Presumed quality*

I think he looks a very good player but it's definitely not outside the realms of possibility that people could be using your second paragraph when talking about him in a few years.
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Wirtz has been voted the best player in the league by the other players for the second time in a row. The first win was by a landslide with almost over 50% of the vots, this time he was narrowly in front of Olise, both around 30%, with the third best player (Musiala or Kane or so) getting around 5%. He has now played at least two seasons at a world class level and three more as a world class talent, was far and away the best player in a team that almost won a triple losing just one match all season and got the second highest points return ever in the league, on par with Guardiola's best Bayern season that he achieved with players such as Robben, Ribery and Leqandowski in the team. Compare that to the CV of Dembele or Joao Felix at the time of their move.

This isn't about a talent who didn't show he performs consistently or whose professionalism is questionable.
 
Zehner said:
Wirtz has been voted the best player in the league by the other players for the second time in a row. The first win was by a landslide with almost over 50% of the vots, this time he was narrowly in front of Olise, both around 30%, with the third best player (Musiala or Kane or so) getting around 5%. He has now played at least two seasons at a world class level and three more as a world class talent, was far and away the best player in a team that almost won a triple losing just one match all season and got the second highest points return ever in the league, on par with Guardiola's best Bayern season that he achieved with players such as Robben, Ribery and Leqandowski in the team. Compare that to the CV of Dembele or Joao Felix at the time of their move.

This isn't about a talent who didn't show he performs consistently or whose professionalism is questionable.
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Out of interest, was all of that in the Premier League or was it in the league where Sancho pulled up trees?
 
TsuWave said:
I didn’t even know Liverpool had money like that
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Coutinho money mate

In all seriousness, they’ve won a few titles in the last few years. Got to be paying for something. VVD and Salah are on very heavy contracts nowadays.
 
dinostar77 said:
He will be a stunning signing for Liverpool and by end of season amongst the best players in the league. Lad is definitely Real Madrid material. As much as I don't like Liverpool, I want to see him play in the PL. It's a coup for the league to get someone like him before his prime years.
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Strange post in a United forum
 
simonhch said:
The money is one thing. This is very unlikely to prove good value for money. Just go and look at the top 20 most expensive transfers of all time, and you'll see that only about 3 are actually successes relative to their fees, and at least half are just straight up disasters. Of the others, you can say they played well for their new teams but didn't push their clubs any closer to their major objectives. So what was the point in spending so much on just one player when that intensifies the risk so greatly? Often there was no point. For context, Wirtz will move for the third largest transfer fee of all time.

The other thing is the quality of the recruitment. If you put the money aside - because I think that's a metric that will be almost impossible to ever qualify as a success - and just focus on the quality of the player being added to their squad; then this signing is sensational for them. He's a brilliant player who will probably get better. It's hard to see any world where he doesn't significantly improve them, although it's also true that there's no guarantee of that either.

Liverpool have often focused resources on signing fewer, but higher quality players that fit their exact needs. It's often involved substantial fees for players that were, at the time, slightly baulked at (VVD, Alisson), but a strategy that proved very successful, and much better than the "sign three players for the same price" approach that United often took, which ended up with just lots of mediocre players on high salaries and no improvement to our best XI. However, this is one situation - and my example is really strongly indicative of the scale of the fee they are paying - where I much prefer signing Cunha and Mbuemo for nearly the same money as just Wirtz. If you gave me the choice of the two scenarios, I would take Cunha and Mbuemo every day. For Liverpool, however, bringing in that one major difference maker to an already very strong squad, makes perfect sense, and I am sure they would take Wirtz over the combo of Cunha and Mbuemo.

Thing is, I think this will be looked as a great signing for them when one just looks at how he plays over the coming years; but I think he will likely be viewed as a disappointment or failure when he's looked at as a player that was signed for over a hundred million pounds. The size of the fee means that it's hard to win any value for money argument here. There are virtually no players, ever, who have justified a fee of this size, and that includes players who were better than Wirtz is now.

Liverpool have finally sat at the big boy table when it comes to transfers, and made their way onto that hallowed list of biggest all time transfers. Big d*ck player. Thing is, they are just as likely to discover that this list is in fact mostly a collection of over compensating Chairmen, poor due diligence, capricious fan driven fantasy signings, and hubris. Welcome to the club LFC.
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Personally I'd argue the success rate is a bit higher than that but would depend what you consider a success. Bale and CR to Real were successes, Bellingham arguably, for me he was worth it for Real. The PSG transfers of Neymar and Mbappe I'd consider successes for elevating the club although I know the lack of CL will be used against them, they have the money that it was worth it to raise their profile. I consider Rice to Arsenal worth the money and so far looks like a success. Same with Kane to Bayern. Caicedo to Chelsea still might be worth it when all is said and done. So for me that's a success rate of about 35%. Not great of course but I think its better than 3/20 for what the club was looking for.
 
If the extortionate numbers in the German press are accurate, I'd love for the shoe to be on the other foot and see him go 007 for Liverpool
 
Red00012 said:
Strange post in a United forum
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Not really, just shows how far off the pace we are and how far ahead of us Liverpool are. Plus I'm not a child or teenager so can talk about Liverpool FC like an adult. I don't like them winning trophies, but their model is proving successful and they are getting stronger.

We need two new keepers and they will have two outstanding keepers (Alisson and marmadasvalli) next season, both good enough to be our no1 keeper.
 
dinostar77 said:
Not really, just shows how far off the pace we are and how far ahead of us Liverpool are. Plus I'm not a child or teenager so can talk about Liverpool FC like an adult. I don't like them winning trophies, but their model is proving successful and they are getting stronger.

We need two new keepers and they will have two outstanding keepers (Alisson and marmadasvalli) next season, both good enough to be our no1 keeper.
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You probably start supporting PL FC or Liverpool FC maybe
Feck those cnuts
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Personally I'd argue the success rate is a bit higher than that but would depend what you consider a success. Bale and CR to Real were successes, Bellingham arguably, for me he was worth it for Real. The PSG transfers of Neymar and Mbappe I'd consider successes for elevating the club although I know the lack of CL will be used against them, they have the money that it was worth it to raise their profile. I consider Rice to Arsenal worth the money and so far looks like a success. Same with Kane to Bayern. Caicedo to Chelsea still might be worth it when all is said and done. So for me that's a success rate of about 35%. Not great of course but I think its better than 3/20 for what the club was looking for.
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Setting the individual arguments for each player aside, it’d be interesting to have numbers on a general success rate of transfers. There was an Athletic video on “why a majority of transfers fail” a few months back I believe. And probably a vast majority do.

The follow-up question would be: do you label a transfer a “success” relative to the fee or independent from it. If it’s the latter, you’d want the success rate to be higher the more expensive the transfer. If it’s the former, the success rate would be expected to be roughly the same as for any other transfer.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Revolutionary stuff. All those clubs who signed £100m+ players who flopped should have hired scouts first!
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Maybe the club with a strong recruitment track record deserve the acknowledgment that they’re better at this stuff than the majority of clubs. The approach that’s seen the club climb to the top of English football.
 
jadajos said:
Setting the individual arguments for each player aside, it’d be interesting to have numbers on a general success rate of transfers. There was an Athletic video on “why a majority of transfers fail” a few months back I believe. And probably a vast majority do.

The follow-up question would be: do you label a transfer a “success” relative to the fee or independent from it. If it’s the latter, you’d want the success rate to be higher the more expensive the transfer. If it’s the former, the success rate would be expected to be roughly the same as for any other transfer.
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Paul Tompkins - who writes extensively about Liverpool and analytics - said that 1/3 of transfers are successful if you consider impact, value for money etc. Quite a broad brush metric but he backed it up well.

Under Klopp, Liverpool far exceeded that 1/3 measure which is why they improved. Arteta’s Arsenal, I believe it, have also exceeded the 1/3 measure which is why they’re so much better. Villa also been clever in the market. United and Spurs are obvious examples where the 1/3 success rate is being met just about but probably not bettered.
 
PickledRed said:
Maybe the club with a strong recruitment track record deserve the acknowledgment that they’re better at this stuff than the majority of clubs. The approach that’s seen the club climb to the top of English football.
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You can acknowledge what you want. I can understand why you are hesitant to acknowledge that signings of this size are always a big risk.

Madrid brought well for years and then they brought Hazard.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Out of interest, was all of that in the Premier League or was it in the league where Sancho pulled up trees?
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Are footballs heavier in the EPL? Or do they have a different shape? Are the goals smaller or the pitches larger?
 
dinostar77 said:
Not really, just shows how far off the pace we are and how far ahead of us Liverpool are. Plus I'm not a child or teenager so can talk about Liverpool FC like an adult. I don't like them winning trophies, but their model is proving successful and they are getting stronger.

We need two new keepers and they will have two outstanding keepers (Alisson and marmadasvalli) next season, both good enough to be our no1 keeper.
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It’s one thing to see they do things well (which they obviously do). But your first post implied you were pleased that Liverpool were signing a player that you rate so highly. I would never be pleased with Liverpool improving their squad :lol:
 
Zehner said:
Are footballs heavier in the EPL? Or do they have a different shape? Are the goals smaller or the pitches larger?
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No, but the overall quality and physicality of the league is higher, and many players have struggled to replicate their form when moving to the premier league.
 
Zehner said:
Are footballs heavier in the EPL? Or do they have a different shape? Are the goals smaller or the pitches larger?
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It seemed to be quite a lot harder for Sancho despite you personally speaking just as effusively about him after he tore up the Bundesliga at a similar age.

Now we can all be wrong, goodness knows I have been. But that's the point I'm making. You can't talk about any transfer as a sure thing, especially when moving to the Prem where it can be quite difficult to adapt.
 
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