£126m transfer fee plus 357k per week is obscene money for this player
Florian Wirtz | Der Fußballgott | Der Fluch ist gebrochen!
- Thread starter Invictus
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It's a huge risk when you factor in injuries and loss of form.
They seem to be breaking their own model that has brought recent success.
The irony is that the success was kickstarted by Barcelona doing something similar with Coutinho.
They seem to be breaking their own model that has brought recent success.
The irony is that the success was kickstarted by Barcelona doing something similar with Coutinho.
But then Klopp was hit with a label sometimes that his reign was very good but not as good because he only won 1 PL and 1 CL. Perhaps they're now trying to make these moves so they can attempt to dominate the league like City did.
Most of us recognize that Klopp dragged them up a few levels to be at the top again.
Perhaps if he had this kind of funding he would have dominated.
The sad truth is that the cheats are a machine.
They have no worry of financial risk.
To compete by spending like they do will not be sustainable for a real club with real finances.
Sooner or later, a big buy goes wrong and a real club is left with a millstone around it's neck.
Maybe, but it's a risk worth taking for Liverpool I think. They have two years left of VVD and Salah. It's worth trying to complement those final years with big moves for established world class talents like Frimpong and Wirtz. Whether they work or not is another question, but I think it makes sense to take the gamble.
Football generally seems a lot harder once you wore a United shirt. I don't want to provoke you but as it happened, I currently get to read a lot of opinions on former United players and coaches and 90% of them are like "yeah he was shit for the last few years but he was shit for United, that doesn't count".
And if Sancho had any weaknesses when he joined you, it was his mindset. But that is one of Wirtz' strengthes as well. How this transfer unfolded is actually pretty representative of that. Sancho went to a club in disarray which didn't even know what kind of player he was. Maybe the extent of his fall from grace wasn't foreseeable but it was clear from the start that this was a terrible career decision for him. Wirtz on the other hand chose Liverpool over Bayern although the latter offered him more because Slot's tactical plan on how to integrate him convinced him while Kompany's didn't.
That is true for every league. There have been many shitty transfers from the EPL to the Bundesliga as well. And many players performed better in the EPL than in the Bundesliga, too.
The EPL clubs that are well run happen to have a good success rate with Bundeslga transfers, too. It's United and Chelsea which ruin the quota.
Since just being at Utd can make the player you thought was the best talent in the world look genuinely useless. You must think Bruno is like up there with prime Zidane right? Amad must be the greatest talent in the entire universe!
How exciting.
Even now Sancho isn't useless and the fact that you think he is highlights why United was a terrible choice for him as a player type. Not so much for Bruno who happens to thrive in chaotic systems with a strong bias for vertical play.
And like it or not, what I described is a thing among international fans. People have recognized that you have an abysmal success rate with your transfers. You may think the bad experiences you have made with Bundesliga buys discourages other clubs from buying Bundesliga players but every failure at United is a failure with an asterisk. I'm very sure Sancho's career would have seen a ver, different trajectory if he didn't join United at the qorst time possible.
I think you're just going round the hedges when it's very clear that all signings are risky, that risk is evidently heightened when the player is coming from another league, that risk is even riskier when it's huge money.
You were wrong about Sancho being the best talent in the world and definitely worth €95m. You might be right about Wirtz. You might be wrong. Who knows.. which is all I've ever said.
It’s not if he has any weaknesses. He clearly had plenty of them. His character was just the most obvious and alarming one. There were others like his lack of physicality or his unwillingness and inability to contribute in a meaningful way on defense.
He wasn’t some close to perfect player ruined by United. He was a very talented player with major flaws, who chose the worst possible club for his further development. Let’s not pretend that Dortmund didn’t work day and night to hide these flaws, because it’s their business modell to sell players like him.
You’re trying here, I’ll give you that. This is the biggest signing in Liverpool’s history in terms of money, player profile etc. Liverpool have tended to develop players rather than sign someone with such a reputation before signing.
It could go wrong - as could any signing. Heck, I’m old enough to remember the underwhelming response on here to Salah, Mané and Klopp joining.
Which own model? We bought Alisson and VVD for world-record fees at that time, and something like 350k is still 50k less than what our biggest stats are currently earning.
Trying what?
I've simply said it's a hell of a lot of money for a player when it remains to be seen if he adapts to the Premier League. I'm not sure why that's something you're struggling with.
I really rated your signing of Mane. I still remember the mass jealousy by many on here when you signed Keita.
Goes to show that you never know with signings. It's why signings over 120m or whatever are always a bit scary. They must really believe he's "the one" though so let's wait and see.
When considering the financial value of a deal - how much do you consider the marketing value of a player? I remember the famous quote by Florentino Pérez that he would rather sell the Bernabeu than Beckham back then.
This is not to compare the marketing value of Wirtz to the one of Beckham but just curious how you think it can or cannot change the equation?
I stand by the opinion that he was the biggest talent in the world at that point in time. Not every talent realizes its full potential.
And yes, transfers are risky. I don't think it makes sense to judge based on the league, though, especially with a strong confirmation bias.
I don't think it required covering, his performances were good enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. I also think the physicality aspect was blown out of portion. Sancho was very agile and is reasonably explosive as showcased against Atletico e. g. But it definitely seems as if he's gained weight after joining United.
The fee is a little high but he's a brilliant player with Ballon D'or potential and they've got him through his best years with plenty of resale value if things change down the line.
I'm surprised at the wages though. That would surely put him behind only Salah (and not far behind) as their 2nd highest earner? I would have expected somewhere between £250k-£300k.
The wages haven’t been reported by a single reliable outlet, only some random twitter handle. The journalist known to be the most reliable for Pool’s news puts the latest bid as £100m+£13m in addons.
I don’t see him as being a balon d’or potential level of player.
The thing about costing this much is you have to be the best of the best to justify it. Like in the case of Van dijk, he came in and was the best center back in the league and propelled Liverpool to new heights.
If you cost this much he'll have to take the league by storm and propel Liverpool to another league win and possibly to UCL to be worth it.
If you cost this much he'll have to take the league by storm and propel Liverpool to another league win and possibly to UCL to be worth it.
Agreed. Ballon d’Or potential is there and he’s the hottest prospect on the market, a fee way above 100m is expected
For the wages indeed 375k would be a lot but I guess his agent said look in a world where Casemiro is on 350k, Sterling on 325k, Sancho on 300k and Mount on 250k, how much do you want me to earn?
I think he can milk LFC for a high salary because they’re very motivated to get him as a marquee signing. So he can ask a lotFor that fee he should be expected to score, assist, defend and pretty much carry the side on his shoul...nevermind
Those expectations only go for United signings, nobody ever expected any of that from the likes of Grealish, Rice, Enzo, Caicedo etc or harped over their fees year in and year out
Outside of Neymar, Pogba and kinda Mbappé, none of the top 15 biggest transfers of all-time had any shot at being the best player on their team the season they signed. You could maybe argue for Enzo (what a wild fee) and Ronaldo to Juventus due to how poor those teams were at the time.
The biggest clubs already have 100M+ players, they have just often purchased them for less than that. Salah at Liverpool is a great example - if Wirtz isn't better than a guy who was Ballon d'Or favorite for half the season this year, it's not a huge indictment on his quality.
If that's what I said, I didn't mean toIt’s one thing to see they do things well (which they obviously do). But your first post implied you were pleased that Liverpool were signing a player that you rate so highly. I would never be pleased with Liverpool improving their squad
Id love for Wirtz to be a Utd player but he's not going to be. I think it's more jealousy and admiration for the off the planning that means they get players like Wirtz, frimpong, maradashvalli. If they manage to add Etkike to that team or Isak next summer its formidable.
It's where I want Utd to be. It's just going to take another 5 years to start to get there. It's a long wait and I don't want Liverpool to get further ahead on trophies especially the league titles.
Btw, the latest Athletic transfer episode that Ornstien was on. One of the guys ran though Wirtz stats and what he brings to Liverpool and he was drooling, not literally. It's not a suprise he was the guy City wanted first to replace Debryne.
Fair enough. I guess every now and again you get the funds available to make a huge purchase on a potential/ World class player, but as i mentioned, this strategy is a huge risk, whereas a state funded machine doesn't care if their expensive signings are sitting on the bench.
You are a well run club and maybe Wirtz will rip the league up, but it's always a huge risk at these prices. Just look at what happened to Coutinho.
Liverpool got to where they are by not making signings like this. This feels like a Woodward deal.
If Wirtz is a success of course it's going to make a difference for the league. Yes the PL has a high floor regarding it's popularity but more stars + better football = higher viewership. This is true for every sport and every league.
If prime Messi would have played in the PL many more people would have watched it no doubt about it. Or Imagine the news of Yamal moving to United.. the hype would be unreal.
Wirtz is not in that category of course but If he's going to fulfill his potential he will be a fun player to watch and a plus for the league.
It would be typical Liverpool if this insane money signing actually ends up being worth it
As far as I've seen he's a good player, but that is a huge fee and massive pressure to perform
As far as I've seen he's a good player, but that is a huge fee and massive pressure to perform
it seems that the english press are being briefed much later than their German counterparts. They are reporting a third bid whereas Joyce is speaking of a 2nd bid. The Germans mentioned the second bid at the start of the week and with the same figure.
Klopp was happy to sign VVD and Alisson for massive fees. also its not just the coach, LFC have been following Wirtz for years. Lfc have Salah and VVD signed up for 2 more years, after that who knows what happens and what level they can play at, if you ask me LFC are trying to make the most of these two years and fair play to them.
Sorry, why had Musiala lived up to the hype but not Wirtz?
Go back and read what i was replying to, its the +100m+ players point im talking about, alisson and VVD as GK and CB are up there with the top fees paid for their positions. Nunez isnt, was a failure but wasnt bought under this recruitment group if you remember.
They are not, they are reporting bid2--Germans are on to Bid 3.And yet the British press are reporting a drastically lower fee. Typical
Exactly, with Salah close to the end i feel this signing is seen as them paving the way for life without him. Its impossible we replace Salah like for like. To add someone to the attack who could be a massive player is great for NOW but also for THEN. There is no doubt there is risk, but its good to see some ambition.
Nothing is certain, but a deal like this is what i wouldve loved to have seen with the last PL win, there was no ambition. He has to perform make no mistake.
Id like to add, if he had chosen City, the majority would've seen this as the KDB replacement and the most suitable one available.
if he had followed Xabi to RM people would've said, typical of RM adding extra quality.
Dare i say if UTD were top 4 and he had chosen them, you would all be saying how this is a sign of how big UTD are. *sees Mbuemo thread*
It's a stupid deal at par to the many we did before. Let me explain
Many assume that Liverpool is buying potential. After all he's 22 years old....right? Yes and no. Sure he's 22 years old but that's irrelevant. If it was then Trent Alexander-Arnold would still be at Liverpool being age 26 and all. What is relevant is his contract which would be probably be 5+1. Contracts are usually re-negotiated towards year 3 or 4 max. That means that contract renewal will happen when Wirtz is 26 years of age ie heading to his prime. What would a 350k a week ask at that point? Cause hell will probably freeze before a player would renew while remaining on the same salary. Then what happens on the next top up at 29 years of age?
That's all assuming that Wirtz is a huge success which in turn would justify a 109m fee + 18.5m per year salary. What if he tanks? Whose going to match that salary to take him off their hands? Cause the modern football will never ever accept a pay-cut
Many assume that Liverpool is buying potential. After all he's 22 years old....right? Yes and no. Sure he's 22 years old but that's irrelevant. If it was then Trent Alexander-Arnold would still be at Liverpool being age 26 and all. What is relevant is his contract which would be probably be 5+1. Contracts are usually re-negotiated towards year 3 or 4 max. That means that contract renewal will happen when Wirtz is 26 years of age ie heading to his prime. What would a 350k a week ask at that point? Cause hell will probably freeze before a player would renew while remaining on the same salary. Then what happens on the next top up at 29 years of age?
That's all assuming that Wirtz is a huge success which in turn would justify a 109m fee + 18.5m per year salary. What if he tanks? Whose going to match that salary to take him off their hands? Cause the modern football will never ever accept a pay-cut
He may be a nice guy but I hope he absolutely flunks it there
How many 100 million players do Liverpool have, no one in Europe is paying 100 million for Van dijk or Salah at this stage of their career. Maybe the Argentinian but that's it. He should definitely look a better player than Mac Allister
Haaland
Isak
A few like Salah, Van dijk if they were 10 years younger and playing at this level. It's stupid money but really really stupid if you pay that money for someone below that level.
So that is the level that would justify the price, maybe he can time will tell. By the way almost all the top ten transfers in football was really poor moves by the clubs.
Premier league players who would cost 150 million if they're sold now.
Haaland
Isak
A few like Salah, Van dijk if they were 10 years younger and playing at this level. It's stupid money but really really stupid if you pay that money for someone below that level.
So that is the level that would justify the price, maybe he can time will tell. By the way almost all the top ten transfers in football was really poor moves by the clubs.
I can’t help but think how weird it is to make this psychological barrier at 100m (let’s talk pounds), but if a player costs 80m it’s a completely different discussion
like when we got Hojlund for 70m+ (one decent but not crazy good season to his belt) and Antony for 80m+ (coming from fecking Eredivise) so many here were like “ok overpriced but that’s what you pay for top talent” - and none of them were top talents in fact. But there was no talk they’d need to get Ballon d’Or or win the CL single handedly to justify the fee.
Now anyone dare to go above 100m, and it’s a world of difference - the player has to instantly be top3 (even top1) footballer in the league or it’s a stupid transfer.
Vast majority of transfer to (or within) Premier League are well overpaid because of immense financial advantage of Premier League. But even if Chelsea overpaid big time for Enzo and Caicedo, they're still decent value and improved Chelsea - got them to trophies and CL qualifiers - a lot, much better value than our below 100m transfers. Wirtz can be great value for LFC even if he doesnt have 25g 25a in his first season.
like when we got Hojlund for 70m+ (one decent but not crazy good season to his belt) and Antony for 80m+ (coming from fecking Eredivise) so many here were like “ok overpriced but that’s what you pay for top talent” - and none of them were top talents in fact. But there was no talk they’d need to get Ballon d’Or or win the CL single handedly to justify the fee.
Now anyone dare to go above 100m, and it’s a world of difference - the player has to instantly be top3 (even top1) footballer in the league or it’s a stupid transfer.
Vast majority of transfer to (or within) Premier League are well overpaid because of immense financial advantage of Premier League. But even if Chelsea overpaid big time for Enzo and Caicedo, they're still decent value and improved Chelsea - got them to trophies and CL qualifiers - a lot, much better value than our below 100m transfers. Wirtz can be great value for LFC even if he doesnt have 25g 25a in his first season.
That's part of the reason such high transfer fees very very rarely go down as successes.
Because the expectation and level needed are almost impossibly high.
It's why Anthony had no chance at all of being a big success as he'd come in at near best in the world levels, yet wasn't even in our best 2 wingers.
Yes it puts too much pressure on the individual and creates a culture of individuality over team play. Antony was constantly going for speculative shots more so than he did at Ajax am sure he felt the need to get a lot more goals to justify the fee and free himself of the pressure.
Klopp spent big on Van Dijk, Alisson, Fabinho, Salah, Keita, Jota, Diaz, Nunez.
It's such a myth that Klopp barely spent and made the most of a small budget.
Helped massively by that ludicrous Coutinho sale, so they could be net spend heroes.
He did but their net spend was lower than the other competing clubs. It seems like they are now willing to not balance the books as much in that respect. That's what I meant by it.
I think its the only way they can see of replacing Salah's influence / contributions in the long run.
Your not gonna find a new Salah, that happens by accident.
I don't expect him to ask for insane money. He could have earned more elsewhere and still chose you. If it was abput money, he would have left us much earlier. He's probably around €9m p. a. right now. I'm sure he was constantly offered double of what we were paying him over the last 3 years or so and likely would have stayed for anpther year if we didn't implode in the second half of the season plus the Alonso departure. His priority is clearly on football.
I am a Manchester United supporter mate.