Football coach jailed for 25 years in Dubai over CBD vape oil

Dr. Dwayne

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Aren't we talking about someone seeking help? I don't know a single doctor that wouldn't help an addict whatever the substance, when it comes to seeking help I think that the issue has more to do with people accepting that they have an issue in the first place, then they may seek and accept help. There are millions of alcoholics that can't be helped by their doctors because they refuse to be helped and I don't see why it would be different for other substances.
No, just addicts in general. People will usually be reasonably comfortable telling their doctor that "yeah I have a few drinks a week" because alcohol is socially acceptable. They may not be truthful about the level of their abuse or accept the help in good faith but at least their physician can monitor them for signs that the habit is becoming harmful.

You can bet that not many of those addicted to illicit substances will tell their doctor they shoot up four days a week or do cocaine from morning til night and the habit will go unnoticed until a serious issue occurs. This means that the person isn't getting guidance and advice that could benefit them because they are afraid to be open about their habits. This is due to the socially unacceptable nature and illegal status of those drugs.
 

K Stand Knut

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I don’t get what the issue with this story??

Is there other drug stories where the ‘suspects’ have gotten much more lenient sentences?

He has admitted his knowledge of the items and therefore has admitted possession of them, albeit inadvertently.

It’s for A court of law of any country to determine a sentence and whether we feel that it is draconian or not is irrelevant.
 

Spoony

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My friend from Dubai, claims that story goes around that guy was dealing, also you went to country like Dubai, do some research and if you did, you automatically accepts certain laws that are way different from west countries.
Yeah but he's our drug dealer.
 

Gehrman

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You can call any country backwards, but due to the complex nature of this kind of thing it’d be hard to do so with any kind of objectivity.
Kind of disagree, but we'd be going off-topic for discussing that in depth.
 

Cascarino

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Kind of disagree, but we'd be going off-topic for discussing that in depth.
Turn it into a thread if you cba

I'm not actually saying it can't be done, just that it comes with a lot of qualifiers. A thorough understanding of it's history and geopolitical situation, as well as it's culture. Someone might have an opinion on the DRC today but if they know nothing about the country's history prior to 1960 then I'd argue that their assessment isn't that useful. Then after that your individual perspective will inform your opinion, and which issues you'll give the most weight to.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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I was pointing out that your reply to his comment, had nothing to do with his comment.

He didn’t intentionally break the law

Of course it can be unfair or stupid, unless you think the law is just in every single application? Do you think it was fair that Mandela spent 27 years in prison? Do you think it was fair that Turing was chemically castrated for his sexual orientation? Was it fair that Jean Valjean went to prison for stealing some bread to feed his sister’s starving children?

It was a hypothetical. A non sequitur would be random and disconnected in nature
The tangential comment was a non-sequeter to my post. This isn't complicated.

Calling laws unfair is frivolous. You don't break a law because you think it's unfair, and if you do, you shouldn't expect to do so with impunity. That was a hypothetical, for what it's worth.
 

Trequarista10

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His opinion of the law (and mine) don't matter. You don't intentionally contravene laws of any country - regardless of how draconian they might be - and expect to be let off the hook.

Being imprisoned for breaking the law isn't unfair or stupid. It's to be expected. Replying with a non-sequeter about how you disagree with another country's law and suggesting that someone who deliberately breaks a law shouldn't face the jail time he's given because you disagree with the law is just risible.
Would you have the same lack of compassion if he was a local rather than a visitor?
 

Trequarista10

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Why would it matter where he's from? Whether he's a local or a visitor, he would deserve the same fate. No idea what you're on about.
Just curious.

You're view and mindset is absurd. As such, I don't feel bad using a good old reductio ad Hitlerum: the Nazis introduced laws persecuting Jewish people. Nobody should question the morality of the laws, its the law. People who broke them, by virtue of being Jewish, deserved to be punished in accordance with the law. Because its the law.
 

Abizzz

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Bunch of proper subjects in here. Do girls who attend schools in societies where it is forbidden deserve everything they get too? Ridiculous morality in my opinion.
 

Cascarino

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The tangential comment was a non-sequeter to my post. This isn't complicated.
No it wasn’t :lol:

Calling laws unfair is frivolous. You don't break a law because you think it's unfair, and if you do, you shouldn't expect to do so with impunity. That was a hypothetical, for what it's worth.
You have a habit of making comments unrelated to what you’re quoting. I never suggested you should break a law and do so with impunity, that’s just something you’ve put in my mouth. How is it frivolous? I gave you a bunch of examples that highlight the dangers of unequivocally viewing the law as just in absolute terms, am I to take from that that you believe Alan Turing being criminalised for his sexual orientation was not unfair?

“You don't break a law because you think it's unfair” - This is the weirdest part of the comment because of course you do, I already mentioned Mandela and his anti-apartheid activism above, but there are so many examples that I don’t know how you’ve come to this conclusion. Do you think Rosa Parks broke the
Alabama law requiring black people to relinquish seats to white people when the bus was full not because of the injustice of the law but because she was just a petty criminal? And by your own logic you would say that law is neither unfair or stupid!

I mean technically that might qualify as a hypothetical, so we’re getting there. Everything else needs a lot of work though.
 

golden_blunder

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Some good examples of laws and law breaking for valid reasons.

however in my opinion we’re getting sucked in. This law was in a foreign country, seemingly ignored either by the chap or his friend. 2 non natives.

isnt it down to those within to change the laws through democratic change?
 

Cascarino

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Some good examples of laws and law breaking for valid reasons.

however in my opinion we’re getting sucked in. This law was in a foreign country, seemingly ignored either by the chap or his friend. 2 non natives.

isnt it down to those within to change the laws through democratic change?
Yeah that's a fair point, I was contesting the idea if a law can be unfair but you're right that it doesn't mean much in regards to this case, especially as I imagine it's a law that is supported by the wider populace.

It's interesting that he was convicted for drug trafficking, as over here one of the criteria that would have to be met is the amount of narcotics, in this particular case I think they found 4 small bottles of the oil, which seems like a very small amount to get that charge and not just possession.
 

JPRouve

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You have a habit of making comments unrelated to what you’re quoting. I never suggested you should break a law and do so with impunity, that’s just something you’ve put in my mouth. How is it frivolous? I gave you a bunch of examples that highlight the dangers of unequivocally viewing the law as just in absolute terms, am I to take from that that you believe Alan Turing being criminalised for his sexual orientation was not unfair?

“You don't break a law because you think it's unfair” - This is the weirdest part of the comment because of course you do, I already mentioned Mandela and his anti-apartheid activism above, but there are so many examples that I don’t know how you’ve come to this conclusion. Do you think Rosa Parks broke the
Alabama law requiring black people to relinquish seats to white people when the bus was full not because of the injustice of the law but because she was just a petty criminal? And by your own logic you would say that law is neither unfair or stupid!

I mean technically that might qualify as a hypothetical, so we’re getting there. Everything else needs a lot of work though.
Legally speaking it's an interesting conversation to have but it needs to be framed properly otherwise your conversation is bound to be unproductive. For example your examples are relevant when we are talking about someone's identity, things that someone can't change and are nonetheless targeted, these laws are considered discriminatory. Now it's obviously different to laws that target a behavior that you voluntarily take like driving recklessly, shooting a firearm in the sky or transporting drugs across borders. And in the case of drugs, I would actually be a lot more lenient if it was addictive but here people tell me that it's not, so the lad is just breaking a law for the sake of it and his friend is being punished for it.
 

Abizzz

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Legally speaking it's an interesting conversation to have but it needs to be framed properly otherwise your conversation is bound to be unproductive. For example your examples are relevant when we are talking about someone's identity, things that someone can't change and are nonetheless targeted, these laws are considered discriminatory. Now it's obviously different to laws that target a behavior that you voluntarily take like driving recklessly, shooting a firearm in the sky or transporting drugs across borders. And in the case of drugs, I would actually be a lot more lenient if it was addictive but here people tell me that it's not, so the lad is just breaking a law for the sake of it and his friend is being punished for it.
I'd wager whoever brought it in would have brought it in for some other reason than for the sake of breaking a law against it. Most probably consuming it, or possibly selling it, I would have thought.
 

JPRouve

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I'd wager whoever brought it in would have brought it in for some other reason than for the sake of breaking a law against it. Most probably consuming it, or possibly selling it, I would have thought.
And I assume that you understood the statement, I would have thought.
 

Cascarino

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Legally speaking it's an interesting conversation to have but it needs to be framed properly otherwise your conversation is bound to be unproductive. For example your examples are relevant when we are talking about someone's identity, things that someone can't change and are nonetheless targeted, these laws are considered discriminatory.
That plays into my wider point of the law not being morally infallible. The statement that provoked those examples was that the law can never be unfair, so the easiest rebuttal to that were the examples I listed, and as you mention are discriminatory in nature. In rough terms the law is a reflection of the society to which it belongs, and as such often times these laws will discriminate against the minority, and the more vulnerable. If someone states in binary terms that the law can never be unfair, I think that's clearly an incorrect belief, and a dangerous one too.

Now it's obviously different to laws that target a behavior that you voluntarily take like driving recklessly, shooting a firearm in the sky or transporting drugs across borders.
I see your point here, and I guess it would partly depend on how rigorously we apply 'voluntarily', and also what is fair and unfair in general. Homelessness is a crime over here, it's technically not an immutable characteristic, so this is an example of a law that targets a behaviour, which I would call call unjust. Many of the crimes that occur over here are a result of financially struggling, and sadly this is by design.

This is slightly besides the point though. A law doesn't have to be discriminatory to be 'unfair or stupid' (the terms I initially used in my other comment), there's a litany of reasons as to why they could fall under those categories in my eyes. Most drug laws do, because of the cost to benefit ratio and the fact that other policies have had better results with far less harm.

And in the case of drugs, I would actually be a lot more lenient if it was addictive but here people tell me that it's not, so the lad is just breaking a law for the sake of it and his friend is being punished for it.
It's not addictive, and this in parts stems from it not being recreational. By law CBD oil has to have less than 0.3% THC (I think). It's not something one would vape to get high on. As for the motivation behind breaking the law, I have no idea. I know the charge of drug trafficking is clearly not the case, drug trafficking doesn't usually involve 4 small ml bottles and with the information we have that is a horrible application of the law. While it would be very foolish to have not checked, I imagine that due to the nature of CBD oil the friend didn't realise it would be contraband until after he was there.
 

Abizzz

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And I assume that you understood the statement, I would have thought.
What other way was there to understand your statement than that the person broke the law for the sake of breaking the law!?
Legally speaking it's an interesting conversation to have but it needs to be framed properly otherwise your conversation is bound to be unproductive. For example your examples are relevant when we are talking about someone's identity, things that someone can't change and are nonetheless targeted, these laws are considered discriminatory. Now it's obviously different to laws that target a behavior that you voluntarily take like driving recklessly, shooting a firearm in the sky or transporting drugs across borders. And in the case of drugs, I would actually be a lot more lenient if it was addictive but here people tell me that it's not, so the lad is just breaking a law for the sake of it and his friend is being punished for it.
 

KirkDuyt

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Drugs are like guns. They're not necessarily dangerous if used responsibly, but we need strict laws to control their use to protect us from the irresponsible.

Or as Jim Jeffries said, I can do drugs like a champion, but fecking Debby went and OD'd on smack, so now they made it illegal.
 

Jippy

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Just curious.

You're view and mindset is absurd. As such, I don't feel bad using a good old reductio ad Hitlerum: the Nazis introduced laws persecuting Jewish people. Nobody should question the morality of the laws, its the law. People who broke them, by virtue of being Jewish, deserved to be punished in accordance with the law. Because its the law.
You're labelling other people's arguments absurd while comparing one country's very strict rules against what they classify as illicit substances to Nazi laws of oppression against Jews? It makes sensible debate with you impossible.
 

Trequarista10

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You're labelling other people's arguments absurd while comparing one country's very strict rules against what they classify as illicit substances to Nazi laws of oppression against Jews? It makes sensible debate with you impossible.
Yes, it was a purposefully extreme comparison because of the absolute stance taken by the poster, who himself argued that laws are laws and the morality of those laws are not relevant. By their own logic, not mine, the same can be applied to any law.
 

Cascarino

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You're labelling other people's arguments absurd while comparing one country's very strict rules against what they classify as illicit substances to Nazi laws of oppression against Jews? It makes sensible debate with you impossible.
No, he's not comparing the laws in a moral sense. He's highlighting what is wrong with the argument that the law is infallible, and that any punishment from breaking the law is warranted and deserved by virtue of its existence. If that is someone's belief then they're entitled to it of course, but it's fair to point out the reality of this thought process.
 

Jippy

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Yes, it was a purposefully extreme comparison because of the absolute stance taken by the poster, who himself argued that laws are laws and the morality of those laws are not relevant. By their own logic, not mine, the same can be applied to any law.
My reply may have sounded more confrontational than was intended. His argument seemed to be if you choose to break a law and wind up facing the draconian punishment when caught it's your own fault, regardless if we find it crazily excessive.

For me your argument is flawed, given this guy chose to go into UAE with the contraband. Being Jewish isn't discretionary.

No, he's not comparing the laws in a moral sense. He's highlighting what is wrong with the argument that the law is infallible, and that any punishment from breaking the law is warranted and deserved by virtue of its existence. If that is someone's belief then they're entitled to it of course, but it's fair to point out the reality of this thought process.
Loads of laws are obviously stupid, but if you pick and choose which ones you abide by in somewhere like UAE you're asking for trouble.
Something being deserved or just a consequence of an action are kind of by the by if you're banged up.

Good luck expecting this government to give a shit and try and get you out too.
 

Cascarino

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Loads of laws are obviously stupid, but if you pick and choose which ones you abide by in somewhere like UAE you're asking for trouble.
Something being deserved or just a consequence of an action are kind of by the by if you're banged up.

Good luck expecting this government to give a shit and try and get you out too.
I don't disagree with any of that. And while I know it's slightly different in this case, I haven't got much time for people who holiday to another area and expect the local laws to not apply, I'm always confused by what they were thinking.
 

Wibble

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Some good examples of laws and law breaking for valid reasons.

however in my opinion we’re getting sucked in. This law was in a foreign country, seemingly ignored either by the chap or his friend. 2 non natives.

isnt it down to those within to change the laws through democratic change?
Dubai? Democracy?
 

Foxbatt

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If you bring in any substance that is banned into a country then you would get the penalty for violating that law. It is the same everywhere. Not knowing is not an excuse. If in the UK, HM Customs find any drugs in your baggage the excuse that it is not mine does not hold. You are responsible for anything that is in your baggage and under your control.
Look at Cannabis. It is legal in Canada for adults but still you cannot take it to US across the Border. In some States it is legal but it is a Federal Offence. If you import it into Canada and then if you do not declare it, you will be prosecuted. CBD is still not legal in many countries and anyone living in UAE or the Middle East should know it about these things.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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No it wasn’t :lol:



You have a habit of making comments unrelated to what you’re quoting. I never suggested you should break a law and do so with impunity, that’s just something you’ve put in my mouth. How is it frivolous? I gave you a bunch of examples that highlight the dangers of unequivocally viewing the law as just in absolute terms, am I to take from that that you believe Alan Turing being criminalised for his sexual orientation was not unfair?

“You don't break a law because you think it's unfair” - This is the weirdest part of the comment because of course you do, I already mentioned Mandela and his anti-apartheid activism above, but there are so many examples that I don’t know how you’ve come to this conclusion. Do you think Rosa Parks broke the
Alabama law requiring black people to relinquish seats to white people when the bus was full not because of the injustice of the law but because she was just a petty criminal? And by your own logic you would say that law is neither unfair or stupid!

I mean technically that might qualify as a hypothetical, so we’re getting there. Everything else needs a lot of work though.
Ironically enough, you're doing what you're claiming I'm doing. We are talking about whether someone who breaks a law deserves punishment for breaking a law. Not your subjective opinion of that law.

Justice/injustice aren't concepts that matter here because we aren't discussing the merits of a law that you or I disagree with. You seem to be having a separate conversation altogether.
 

Cascarino

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Ironically enough, you're doing what you're claiming I'm doing. We are talking about whether someone who breaks a law deserves punishment for breaking a law. Not your subjective opinion of that law.

Justice/injustice aren't concepts that matter here because we aren't discussing the merits of a law that you or I disagree with. You seem to be having a separate conversation altogether.
I mean obviously our wired have been crossed a little here. The comment you initially replied to never gave an opinion on the bolded, and neither did I. The only thing I've contested is your belief that a law, or being punished for breaking a law, can never be unfair. Which has nothing to do with this particular case, I just find that to be an obvious bad take.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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I mean obviously our wired have been crossed a little here. The comment you initially replied to never gave an opinion on the bolded, and neither did I. The only thing I've contested is your belief that a law, or being punished for breaking a law, can never be unfair. Which has nothing to do with this particular case, I just find that to be an obvious bad take.
I never said that because I don't believe that. It's a bad take but it isn't my take, so I'm essentially in a position where I have to rebut points I never made.

Of course laws can be unjust, and that's the case a lot of the time, the Rosa Parks case that you adduced being one example.
 

Cascarino

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I never said that because I don't believe that. It's a bad take but it isn't my take, so I'm essentially in a position where I have to rebut points I never made.

Of course laws can be unjust, and that's the case a lot of the time, the Rosa Parks case that you adduced being one example.
Fair enough, I think I took this

Being imprisoned for breaking the law isn't unfair or stupid. It's to be expected.
as a wider stance on the law in general, I can see now that you were talking in the context of this case whereas I wrongly applied it to meaning the law an absolute.

If you bring in any substance that is banned into a country then you would get the penalty for violating that law. It is the same everywhere. Not knowing is not an excuse. If in the UK, HM Customs find any drugs in your baggage the excuse that it is not mine does not hold. You are responsible for anything that is in your baggage and under your control.
Look at Cannabis. It is legal in Canada for adults but still you cannot take it to US across the Border. In some States it is legal but it is a Federal Offence. If you import it into Canada and then if you do not declare it, you will be prosecuted. CBD is still not legal in many countries and anyone living in UAE or the Middle East should know it about these things.

While this is all true, and I say this as someone who thinks UK drug policy is terrible, I'm still not sure how 4 small ml bottles can lead to a charge of trafficking and supplying. If we take the information we have as gospel, we have someone who was beaten after the authorities intercepted a whatsapp message from his friend saying he'd left cbd oil in his car, told if he signed a confessional the abuse would stop, signed the document in a language he both didn't understand and didn't have translated, and was then sentenced to 25 years.



I'm struggling to