Football Leaks: Manchester City accused of using shadow firms to flout rules

[Dan_F]

Imagine using a fine as a way of punishing a team for financial doping. The same logic that sees homeless people get fined for begging.

I’m not even bothered by it. I’d be much more concerned with the issues around players like Sancho, where small clubs are getting cheated out of what are potentially huge fees, that have a massive impact on the future of their club.

 

[lysglimt]

It's a bit of a leap to call illegally obtained documents as clear documentation. I'd expect that UEFA will need to conduct their own investigation and will only be able to act upon evidence they can legally obtain themselves. Otherwise they'll be pissing in the wind if they want to punish City purely based on the Der Spiegel leaks.

How they obtain it - is relevant in a court of law - not to determine if a club has done anything illegal based on football rules.

 

[Thunderhead]

Nowt will happen, apparent His Highness is Sheik Mohammed Bin Zayed not Sheik Mansour relating to the first post on the thread

 

[andyox]

FFP is the first step towards resolving these problems you perceive. One step at a time. Over time it can certainly be refined, added to and improved.

City are actively breaking down this first step towards improving the health of the game. It's a disgrace.

If you can point me to any aspect of the design of FFP that lowers the gap between the biggest and smallest clubs I'd be all ears. I think it does the opposite. At the moment it seems to me to only really target the "financially doped biggest clubs" which I suppose is just City and PSG if we're honest. We're conflating UEFA FFP and PL FFP a bit here, but on competitiveness specifically (and per my previous post), how does PL FFP solve the problem of United's revenue being five times more than the club with the lowest revenue in the PL? United haven't broken any FFP rules, obviously, so FFP seems irrelevant to me in addressing that problem (of course we might disagree on whether that's a problem or not).

City have broken UEFA FFP rules in previous year(s), and we may be banned from the CL. I'm absolutely fine with that, but I'm guessing City's owners won't be, so it might lead to a messy legal challenge. Who knows!

In terms of FFP being refined and improved, I think probably it all depends on what we want FFP to solve. It was initially supposed to be about preventing clubs from bankruptcy but it's evolved to targeting mainly outside investment/financial doping. I'd love to see it evolve further to target competitiveness but I have a feeling that the elite European clubs would never allow that so it's probably a non-starter. It's worth noting that in 2019 City have no issues passing FFP, so it'll be interesting for many reasons to see what direction any redesigned FFP goes in (that might be influenced by any legal challenge obviously though).

 

[Verminator]

Us drawing them in the semi, only to get a by to the final when they get suspended, would do nicely.
I could have some fun with that.

 

[Verminator]

Sorry but being lectured on financial inequality in football by a fan of one of the two richest clubs in the world, is bloody annoying.
Spend what you earn is the fairest way to regulate football, without going NFL draft route.
Don't forget that loan repayments have been a big part of our recent finances, thanks to a leveraged buy out.

I'm sure while your team was hoisting trophies aloft, you were crying at the unfairness being imposed on Stoke and Sunderland.

 

[Adisa]

How they obtain it - is relevant in a court of law

Of course it's relevant.

 

[andyox]

Sorry but being lectured on financial inequality in football by a fan of one of the two richest clubs in the world, is bloody annoying.
Spend what you earn is the fairest way to regulate football, without going NFL draft route.
Don't forget that loan repayments have been a big part of our recent finances, thanks to a leveraged buy out.

I'm sure while your team was hoisting trophies aloft, you were crying at the unfairness being imposed on Stoke and Sunderland.

Haha yea fair enough. I was complaining about how unfair football was for 20 years pre-ADUG though, so it'd be hypocritical to stop now

 

[B20]

It's a bit of a leap to call illegally obtained documents as clear documentation. I'd expect that UEFA will need to conduct their own investigation and will only be able to act upon evidence they can legally obtain themselves. Otherwise they'll be pissing in the wind if they want to punish City purely based on the Der Spiegel leaks.

"Your honor! we hid our crimes well enough that they could not be revealed by legal means. That ought to count for something."

 

[GaryLifo]

There's a really simple solution to this.

You make it so spending outside your genuine revenue that isn't recouped through legitimate means within three years results in a tax of 100 per cent. That tax then gets distributed across all other clubs in the league.

City can then spend whatever they want. They just have to pay double for spending above their revenue and that money helps the rest of the league keep up.

 

[Jeppers7]

Haha yea fair enough. I was complaining about how unfair football was for 20 years pre-ADUG though, so it'd be hypocritical to stop now

Unfair ? How was it unfair ? United and City started out from similar points and historically spent similar amounts even up until your takeover. You spent poorly and suffered as a result of poor management and poor managers. Similarly we went 26 years without a title for the same reasons. Great management changed that and we had a spell of success that's unprecedented.

Since then we've had five years of poor management and poor signings and guess what ? We've suffered as a result. This is football, not FM cheat mode.

Look at how spending has escalated since City and PSG won the lottery, clubs with spending power are now forced to try to compete. Spending has gone from 20-30 million a season to hundreds of millions not being enough, and god knows what city have actually spent.

There's a big 6 now in the premier league, what hope have any other clubs of breaking into that ? Less than 20 years ago that's for sure.

If FFP stops football being reduced to a waiting game, of who can get the next sugar daddy then I'm all for it.

 

[ROFLUTION]

If you can point me to any aspect of the design of FFP that lowers the gap between the biggest and smallest clubs I'd be all ears. I think it does the opposite. At the moment it seems to me to only really target the "financially doped biggest clubs" which I suppose is just City and PSG if we're honest. We're conflating UEFA FFP and PL FFP a bit here, but on competitiveness specifically (and per my previous post), how does PL FFP solve the problem of United's revenue being five times more than the club with the lowest revenue in the PL? United haven't broken any FFP rules, obviously, so FFP seems irrelevant to me in addressing that problem (of course we might disagree on whether that's a problem or not).

City have broken UEFA FFP rules in previous year(s), and we may be banned from the CL. I'm absolutely fine with that, but I'm guessing City's owners won't be, so it might lead to a messy legal challenge. Who knows!

In terms of FFP being refined and improved, I think probably it all depends on what we want FFP to solve. It was initially supposed to be about preventing clubs from bankruptcy but it's evolved to targeting mainly outside investment/financial doping. I'd love to see it evolve further to target competitiveness but I have a feeling that the elite European clubs would never allow that so it's probably a non-starter. It's worth noting that in 2019 City have no issues passing FFP, so it'll be interesting for many reasons to see what direction any redesigned FFP goes in (that might be influenced by any legal challenge obviously though).

There's so much hypocrisy and so many incorrect statements in this post, I dont even know where to start.

 

[KM]

It's a bit of a leap to call illegally obtained documents as clear documentation. I'd expect that UEFA will need to conduct their own investigation and will only be able to act upon evidence they can legally obtain themselves. Otherwise they'll be pissing in the wind if they want to punish City purely based on the Der Spiegel leaks.

There's clear precedence of CAS( where I suspect any case will go) using hacked evidence admissible in court so you're in for a disappointment.

http://www.cisarbitration.com/2018/...idence-in-the-court-of-arbitration-for-sport/

Here's the relevant paragraph:

Taking into account CAS case law, CAS panels are likely to take into account evidence, unlawfully obtained, which would not be admissible in state courts of most of the countries. So far CAS has adopted an approach that the end justifies the means.

 

[Gee Male]

It's a bit of a leap to call illegally obtained documents as clear documentation. I'd expect that UEFA will need to conduct their own investigation and will only be able to act upon evidence they can legally obtain themselves. Otherwise they'll be pissing in the wind if they want to punish City purely based on the Der Spiegel leaks.

UEFA didn't obtain anything illegally though. They read it in a German paper. I'm sure you've read it too - did it feel like you were committing a crime?

This case will drag on for years, so long as to be irrelevant in the end and a settlement will be reached.

Regardless of the punishment though, City are tainted by this. A zero morals club - their only argument is that it is unfair how they were caught.

 

[ExecutionerWasp001]

The only way PSG & City can be stopped is for the big clubs to find the Eliot Ness within UEFA. Corruption is only stopped when someone working for the greater good & who cannot be bought comes forward.

 

[FujiVice]

Premier League is looking into them now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47501423

 

[VanGaalEra]

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[PoTMS]

Imagine they retrospectively give us last year's title and then deduct points from them this season. We get a title but then so so Liverpool. Eurgh, I don't know how I feel about that.

 

[Klopper76]

Big points deduction please.

 

[FujiVice]

Imagine they retrospectively give us last year's title and then deduct points from them this season. We get a title but then so so Liverpool. Eurgh, I don't know how I feel about that.

We get the 2012 and 2018 title. Liverpool get 2014 and 2019.

I'd rather do without both to be honest.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Haha yea fair enough. I was complaining about how unfair football was for 20 years pre-ADUG though, so it'd be hypocritical to stop now

But now you only disagree with the rule which impacts your club. Your club which just happens to be one of the biggest drivers of inequality in the game. You must need some cognitive dissonance for that!

 

[jymufc20]

Does Liverpool's luck know no end ?

 

[SwansonsTache]

The only way PSG & City can be stopped is for the big clubs to find the Eliot Ness within UEFA. Corruption is only stopped when someone working for the greater good & who cannot be bought comes forward.

Only hope is the Yanks and FBI getting involved. They will be less than impressed about the obvious corruption. As it stands today they hardly bother to even hide it.

 

[Paxi]

We get the 2012 and 2018 title. Liverpool get 2014 and 2019.

I'd rather do without both to be honest.

That will never happen.

I'd massively surprised if they were deducted points at all. A heavy fine and a ban from CL would probably be the worst of it.

 

[yumtum]

City fans assuming FFP was to stop City and PSG. The arrogance.

FFP was to stop financial doping not to help smaller teams bridge the gap between themselves and historically bigger ones, for that they'd have to gain it over time (history innit??). FFP was to stop clubs going under when rich owners pulled the plug on their toys and leave them in ruins (Portsmouth anyone?).

City are only lucky that FFP exists so that their billionaire owners (who dont give a single f**k about City) have to break rules so it's in contracts how much money their shadow companies give them, cos if this wasn't the case then their owners would be pumping billions in, with them potentially leaving, and if they did leave under that situation, City would be even more insignificant than they were before, just with a little less respect from every other football fan going.

Just face it City fans, you begrudge and moan about FFP, but without it you'd be risking the longterm status of your club for some empty victories.

 

[worldinmotion66]

Disgusting. And we are going to go out of the CL v a similarly horrible club, these two shouldn't even be allowed in the CL.

Come again?

 

[Zebs]

So, if City get a points deduction and Liverpool win 3, draw 4 and lose 2 of their nine games, and we win all nine of ours, we win the league. It's on!

white text

 

[Thunderhead]

i very much doubt it'll be done before then end of this season, could see us starting next season on minus points though

 

[BobbyManc]

City fans assuming FFP was to stop City and PSG. The arrogance.

FFP was to stop financial doping not to help smaller teams bridge the gap between themselves and historically bigger ones, for that they'd have to gain it over time (history innit??). FFP was to stop clubs going under when rich owners pulled the plug on their toys and leave them in ruins (Portsmouth anyone?).

UEFA's FFP would have had no bearing on what happened to Portsmouth so yeah, nice try, but no. I've literally posted quotes from Platini who implemented the whole thing where he admits it was requested by owners like Abramovic because they didn't want to spend more money to compete with other sides, but no one seems to have bothered replying to that.

 

[Adisa]

Any word from bluemoon?

 

[BobbyManc]

There's clear precedence of CAS( where I suspect any case will go) using hacked evidence admissible in court so you're in for a disappointment.

http://www.cisarbitration.com/2018/...idence-in-the-court-of-arbitration-for-sport/

Here's the relevant paragraph:

Yeah from what I gather if it goes to court they can be used as evidence but if not then UEFA can't use them, I've seen a couple of journalists mention this so I'm presuming it to be true. And UEFA will not want it to go to court at all, neither will City, so I'd expect another face-saving settlement for both sides. I do not think the documents are the big expose that people seem to think they are. UEFA are supposed to have been aware of most of the arrangements that have been disclosed, and it again seems to boil down to a legal dispute over what constitutes a Related Party Transaction. To be honest I'm not really worried about this at all, it doesn't seem anywhere near as significant as the other potential problems relating to third-party ownership and deals involving youth players.

 

[andyox]

There's so much hypocrisy and so many incorrect statements in this post, I dont even know where to start.

Have a go then?

 

[andyox]

Unfair ? How was it unfair ? United and City started out from similar points and historically spent similar amounts even up until your takeover. You spent poorly and suffered as a result of poor management and poor managers. Similarly we went 26 years without a title for the same reasons. Great management changed that and we had a spell of success that's unprecedented.

Since then we've had five years of poor management and poor signings and guess what ? We've suffered as a result. This is football, not FM cheat mode.

Look at how spending has escalated since City and PSG won the lottery, clubs with spending power are now forced to try to compete. Spending has gone from 20-30 million a season to hundreds of millions not being enough, and god knows what city have actually spent.

There's a big 6 now in the premier league, what hope have any other clubs of breaking into that ? Less than 20 years ago that's for sure.

If FFP stops football being reduced to a waiting game, of who can get the next sugar daddy then I'm all for it.

Agree with your first paragraph. United were run better than City, and benefited from that, as you deserved. Our poor management led to us getting relegated to the third tier. Your poor management has led to a lowest finish of 7th in the PL and four more trophies (since Ferguson retired). As I said previously, United are now so big in terms of revenue that it's hard to believe that poor management could ever lead to you becoming non-elite the way football is currently structured.

On unfairness, my main gripe was always the CL and the revenue it provided to participants, which made the rich richer in a way that was more important back then (when CL money was a bigger part of the revenue pie than it is now -- PL TV money is now king). It's why I never watched the CL, and am not bothered about it now.

City's financial doping is also now unfair. I've never disagreed with that. I think where we disagree is that I think City's financial doping is a symptom of problems in the current structure of football, whereas you may think that City's financial doping is the problem itself.

 

[Johan07]

I am not so sure that this will be discarded/swept under the rug as seems to be the common notion in this thread. There are very powerful clubs that will want UEFA to punish the feck out of City and PSG: Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern to name three. For selfish reasons of course, but still. Those three clubs are hurt bad by the oil money. United and the top English clubs will be fine due to the PL-money, those clubs in the long run: not so much. And those clubs carry weight in UEFA. No mistake about it.
I think this will be a much bigger issue than this thread suggests. And it should be tbf.

 

[andyox]

Yeah from what I gather if it goes to court they can be used as evidence but if not then UEFA can't use them, I've seen a couple of journalists mention this so I'm presuming it to be true. And UEFA will not want it to go to court at all, neither will City, so I'd expect another face-saving settlement for both sides. I do not think the documents are the big expose that people seem to think they are. UEFA are supposed to have been aware of most of the arrangements that have been disclosed, and it again seems to boil down to a legal dispute over what constitutes a Related Party Transaction. To be honest I'm not really worried about this at all, it doesn't seem anywhere near as significant as the other potential problems relating to third-party ownership and deals involving youth players.

I've no idea how UEFA would go about trying to obtain the evidence they'd need tbh, beyond the hacked emails. As City's statement says, our accounts are a matter of legal and regulatory record. Etihad have previously released a statement to say the cash came from Etihad's accounts, and assume the other UAE sponsors would say the same. At that point, what could UEFA do? They're not detectives, they can't subpoena evidence from anyone? I think we're guilty, I just don't know how UEFA would go about proving it, but I guess we'll see.

 

[Irish Jet]

If these corrupt bastards finally get done for their money laundering propaganda scam only for it to hand Liverpool the league I will lose my shit.

 

[Cassidy]

If you can point me to any aspect of the design of FFP that lowers the gap between the biggest and smallest clubs I'd be all ears. I think it does the opposite. At the moment it seems to me to only really target the "financially doped biggest clubs" which I suppose is just City and PSG if we're honest. We're conflating UEFA FFP and PL FFP a bit here, but on competitiveness specifically (and per my previous post), how does PL FFP solve the problem of United's revenue being five times more than the club with the lowest revenue in the PL? United haven't broken any FFP rules, obviously, so FFP seems irrelevant to me in addressing that problem (of course we might disagree on whether that's a problem or not).

City have broken UEFA FFP rules in previous year(s), and we may be banned from the CL. I'm absolutely fine with that, but I'm guessing City's owners won't be, so it might lead to a messy legal challenge. Who knows!

In terms of FFP being refined and improved, I think probably it all depends on what we want FFP to solve. It was initially supposed to be about preventing clubs from bankruptcy but it's evolved to targeting mainly outside investment/financial doping. I'd love to see it evolve further to target competitiveness but I have a feeling that the elite European clubs would never allow that so it's probably a non-starter. It's worth noting that in 2019 City have no issues passing FFP, so it'll be interesting for many reasons to see what direction any redesigned FFP goes in (that might be influenced by any legal challenge obviously though).

It was the outside investment/financial doping that was causing clubs to go bankrupt either with the owner not having the money they say they have or leaving abruptly.
Financial Fair Play it is all in the name, it's about the financing of clubs and making sure its done in a sustainable manner which won't result in a Rangers or Portsmouth or more recently AC Milan type situation.

UEFA are actually usually quite favourable to City and PSG so its odd when this is seen as an attack on them. Actually FFP safeguards City as a club from its owners.

 

[Sandikan]

There's no chance in hell they're getting a points deduction this season!

They may well get some huge fine, reduced squad limit, some ban on transfers etc. At absolute worst a ban on entering next year's euro cup.

I'll be amazed if they get to the bottom of the paying players through separate accounts and sponsors figures being hyped up by shell companies.

 

[Giggsyking]

It's a bit of a leap to call illegally obtained documents as clear documentation. I'd expect that UEFA will need to conduct their own investigation and will only be able to act upon evidence they can legally obtain themselves. Otherwise they'll be pissing in the wind if they want to punish City purely based on the Der Spiegel leaks.

It does not matter how they obtained the documents. It will be valid evidence at the end. If city want to sue the german paper, it is another thing.

 

[Suedesi]

CONGRATS TO MANCHESTER CITY FOR ACHIEVING AN UNPRECEDENTED QUADRUPLE:
BEING INVESTIGATED BY FIFA, UEFA, THE FA, AND THE PREMIER LEAGUE.