Football, skin color and perception

Cascarino

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I get that he's intelligent, he has to be to stand out the way he does but what's the point in saying he is not superman when objectively speaking he clearly is the closest to being one in terms of physicality?

https://www.90min.com/posts/6299626...ance-during-the-2018-19-premier-league-season

https://www.football.london/chelsea-fc/players/terry-kante-ballon-dor-claim-21308479

“N’Golo still has so much to give over the next few years. He’s one of the fittest players I’ve come across as well.

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation...l-pogba-marvels-at-ngolo-kantes-fifteen-lungs
He's not. There are plenty of players who possess similar levels of physicality. He's obviously very fit, but the PL is full of players who have incredible stamina. What sets him apart from most of them is his tactical nous combined with elite stamina.
 

giorno

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I get that he's intelligent, he has to be to stand out the way he does but what's the point in saying he is not superman when objectively speaking he clearly is the closest to being one in terms of physicality?
The one article you posted that isn't teammates talking about how amazing he is and is based on actual data shows him covering 0.2 Km more than Milivojevic in the same number of games, and comparatively fewer per game than Jack Cork

Yes, Kante has amazing stamina. Yes, he's fast. Yes, he's an outlier. No, he's not unique, and most definitely not the most physically impressive player in the world - he just looks it because of his intelligence, graft and hard work - and finally no, the color of his skin isn't the reason for his stamina, pace and mobility, afterall he is an outlier in those regards regardless of skin color - and other such outliers don't necessarily have the same skin tone
 

JPRouve

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He's not. There are plenty of players who possess similar levels of physicality. He's obviously very fit, but the PL is full of players who have incredible stamina. What sets him apart from most of them is his tactical nous combined with elite stamina.
Someone like Beckham was an incredible athlete if you listen to his teammates but I don't think that has ever been part of his description in the press, I could be wrong though.
 

giorno

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Someone like Beckham was an incredible athlete if you listen to his teammates but I don't think that has ever been part of his description in the press, I could be wrong though.
Beckham was very much an incredible athlete in the same vein as Kante, in fact. Otherwordly stamina and very good pace and mobility. Compared to Kante he was slower, but also significantly stronger
 

tomaldinho1

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Someone like Beckham was an incredible athlete if you listen to his teammates but I don't think that has ever been part of his description in the press, I could be wrong though.
I remember Nev said him, Giggs and Yorke completed the bleep test. I reckon most PL players of a lighter, smaller build would probably pass/get close to passing that now, back then it was a rarity. Kagawa beat Becks' record when he came & a quick google tells me Dan James is the current record holder...shame we sold him!
 

GatoLoco

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The one article you posted that isn't teammates talking about how amazing he is and is based on actual data shows him covering 0.2 Km more than Milivojevic in the same number of games, and comparatively fewer per game than Jack Cork

Yes, Kante has amazing stamina. Yes, he's fast. Yes, he's an outlier. No, he's not unique, and most definitely not the most physically impressive player in the world - he just looks it because of his intelligence, graft and hard work - and finally no, the color of his skin isn't the reason for his stamina, pace and mobility, afterall he is an outlier in those regards regardless of skin color - and other such outliers don't necessarily have the same skin tone
We are not going to disagree on him standing out in aspects other than his physique. In fact that is what I said in my first post. In order to be elite, and Kante is clearly elite, he has to do well many things.

But what's the point in hiding that his endurance and intensity are top notch? I mean, how many coaches have you seen saying things such as the following after the games?


Has everyone agreed to remark something that should not be remarked? Terry, Tuchel, Pogba and so many others?
 

Cascarino

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Someone like Beckham was an incredible athlete if you listen to his teammates but I don't think that has ever been part of his description in the press, I could be wrong though.
That's an interesting shout, he was an incredible athlete but it's definitely not something that would be front and center in the media reports, in the way that is the case with other players.

We are not going to disagree on him standing out in aspects other than his physique. In fact that is what I said in my first post. In order to be elite, and Kante is clearly elite, he has to do well many things.

But what's the point in hiding that his endurance and intensity are top notch? I mean, how many coaches have you seen saying things such as the following after the games?


Has everyone agreed to remark something that should not be remarked? Terry, Tuchel, Pogba and so many others?


That's the 2017 season I think.
He obviously has top notch endurance, it's just that many other players do as well.
 

Bobski

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Stereotyping and sports go hand in hand, everyone does it, usually not realizing what they are doing. I played CB for years and when playing against new players I was always making a judgement on what type of player they might be, how to deal with them, much of it based on an initial impression of their physical make up. Probably not healthy and could indeed cross over to situations outside of the game, but I think everyone must do this do an extent. If I was playing against 2 strikers with similar builds, one black, one white, I would generally expect the former to be quicker, be warier of getting too tight and leaving space. Of course this was not a foolproof method and you would have to reassess quickly, much like the old "good touch for a big guy" trope.

One thing that was constant, whatever the demographic, was the "if he had a brain he would be dangerous fast winger" skinned the full back constantly only to Gronkjaer the cross out for a throw on the far side or run it out of play for a goal kick, teammates start off optimistic with them then are screaming for them to be subbed after an hour.
 

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He's not. There are plenty of players who possess similar levels of physicality. He's obviously very fit, but the PL is full of players who have incredible stamina. What sets him apart from most of them is his tactical nous combined with elite stamina.
Kante has great stamina but is also extremely quick. That’s an unusual combination. Long distance runners wouldn’t be expected to win sprints. When you hear coaches blown away by his stats it’s probably the number of high intensity runs, not total distance.
 

Bobski

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Kante has great stamina but is also extremely quick. That’s an unusual combination. Long distance runners wouldn’t be expected to win sprints. When you hear coaches blown away by his stats it’s probably the number of high intensity runs, not total distance.
Yes, remember all the Barca drug insinuations, wasn't distance covered but the intensity of the press. Running 10-12 K in 90 mins is not that hard, constantly sprinting at full intensity is the challenge.
 

Cascarino

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Kante has great stamina but is also extremely quick. That’s an unusual combination. Long distance runners wouldn’t be expected to win sprints. When you hear coaches blown away by his stats it’s probably the number of high intensity runs, not total distance.
Even with that caveat, he's not far removed from the rest of the pack. Looking at Chelsea alone his teammate Chilwell beats him when it comes to these metrics, he generally has a lot more sprints over the season. This isn't to say Kante isn't amazing at this stuff as he obviously is, just that he's not significantly better than others who excel in these areas

I honestly think that there is a small amount of racism in football but a lot of it is nonsense, invested in finding racism because it is important to a certain narrative.
Did you read the study in the op?
 

EngimaMK

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I honestly think that there is a small amount of racism in football but a lot of it is nonsense, invested in finding racism because it is important to a certain narrative.
For example, we were told that "England fans are racist because of the racist tweets after England's final loss".

It's frankly bollocks but the intellectual, woke class won't let that be the narrative.

Of all the huge amount of tweets in the shadow of England's final loss, the Guardian identifies 100 or so tweets. On further inspection approximately 70 or so of them actually came from England. But the media tells us that the tweets (from horrible, arsehole racist) tells us a thing about racism in this country? It's frankly bollocks.

Yes, those 70 or so people are awful. But they are not representative of the greater people. They are not a symptom of "deep rooted racism". They are 70 or so dickheads on Twitter from a population of 70million or so.

Stop focusing on a handful of dickheads and pretending they are the norm and instead realise that 99%+ of England fans are NOT like that. The media and a certain type of idiot love racism, despite their claims to hate it.

If you want to find an asshole in this world, you will. But actually try to appreciate the fact you need to look. This country is one of the best in the world for racial harmony. That doesn't mean it is perfect but so many of you lack a sense of perspective.
 

Cascarino

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For example, we were told that "England fans are racist because of the racist tweets after England's final loss".

It's frankly bollocks but the intellectual, woke class won't let that be the narrative.

Of all the huge amount of tweets in the shadow of England's final loss, the Guardian identifies 100 or so tweets. On further inspection approximately 70 or so of them actually came from England. But the media tells us that the tweets (from horrible, arsehole racist) tells us a thing about racism in this country? It's frankly bollocks.

Yes, those 70 or so people are awful. But they are not representative of the greater people. They are not a symptom of "deep rooted racism". They are 70 or so dickheads on Twitter from a population of 70million or so.

Stop focusing on a handful of dickheads and pretending they are the norm and instead realise that 99%+ of England fans are NOT like that. The media and a certain type of idiot love racism, despite their claims to hate it.

If you want to find an asshole in this world, you will. But actually try to appreciate the fact you need to look. This country is one of the best in the world for racial harmony. That doesn't mean it is perfect but so many of you lack a sense of perspective.
What does any of this have to do with this thread? I'm genuinely confused
 

Conor

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For example, we were told that "England fans are racist because of the racist tweets after England's final loss".

It's frankly bollocks but the intellectual, woke class won't let that be the narrative.

Of all the huge amount of tweets in the shadow of England's final loss, the Guardian identifies 100 or so tweets. On further inspection approximately 70 or so of them actually came from England. But the media tells us that the tweets (from horrible, arsehole racist) tells us a thing about racism in this country? It's frankly bollocks.

Yes, those 70 or so people are awful. But they are not representative of the greater people. They are not a symptom of "deep rooted racism". They are 70 or so dickheads on Twitter from a population of 70million or so.

Stop focusing on a handful of dickheads and pretending they are the norm and instead realise that 99%+ of England fans are NOT like that. The media and a certain type of idiot love racism, despite their claims to hate it.

If you want to find an asshole in this world, you will. But actually try to appreciate the fact you need to look. This country is one of the best in the world for racial harmony. That doesn't mean it is perfect but so many of you lack a sense of perspective.
Yeah, instead of the literal thousands on thousands of first hand accounts from minorities in the UK, let's let you determine how well everything is going.
 

EngimaMK

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What does any of this have to do with this thread? I'm genuinely confused
Well it is somewhat related because the thread is about perceptions of racism in football. Something so many seem to be obsessed with (as you see from the kneeling every week). I don't have particularly strong feelings about that but I find it bizarre that it's a black player finds kneeling not okay then he is just wrong and if a white player finds kneeling not okay, then he is (heaven forbid), a terrible racist.

This topic is undeniably and indelibly linked to the wider narrative of racism in football.

For what it is worth, I hate the narrative that x black player is the same as y black player because they look the same. Or that being black = athleticism (although it often does). Race does dictate some differences, for example East Asians are rarely powerhouse muscle merchants.
 

AllGoodNamesRGone

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Ffs and another one comes along. Anyone who uses the term “woke” without a hint of irony is generally going to make a really stupid point.
 

Champ

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Well it is somewhat related because the thread is about perceptions of racism in football. Something so many seem to be obsessed with (as you see from the kneeling every week). I don't have particularly strong feelings about that but I find it bizarre that it's a black player finds kneeling not okay then he is just wrong and if a white player finds kneeling not okay, then he is (heaven forbid), a terrible racist.

This topic is undeniably and indelibly linked to the wider narrative of racism in football.

For what it is worth, I hate the narrative that x black player is the same as y black player because they look the same. Or that being black = athleticism (although it often does). Race does dictate some differences, for example East Asians are rarely powerhouse muscle merchants.
Is it about racism though??

Surely it's more about stereotypes?

The article in question also highlights people's attitudes to woman's football, so I don't think it has anything to do with racism, just the way people perceive certain aspects of football, and indeed life.
 

Cascarino

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Well it is somewhat related because the thread is about perceptions of racism in football. Something so many seem to be obsessed with (as you see from the kneeling every week). I don't have particularly strong feelings about that but I find it bizarre that it's a black player finds kneeling not okay then he is just wrong and if a white player finds kneeling not okay, then he is (heaven forbid), a terrible racist.

This topic is undeniably and indelibly linked to the wider narrative of racism in football.

For what it is worth, I hate the narrative that x black player is the same as y black player because they look the same. Or that being black = athleticism (although it often does). Race does dictate some differences, for example East Asians are rarely powerhouse muscle merchants.
I think it's good to be aware of the subconscious decisions we make though, and it doesn't always come from a nefarious place. I think the study in the op is interesting, others have put forward reasons in this thread as to why we might have these perceptions and I think it's well worth a discussion. There's been plenty of times when I've made a snap judgement on a player, not just for race related reasons and it's always interesting to see why I came to the conclusion I did.
 

Oly Francis

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More woke opium of the masses
Ffs and another one comes along. Anyone who uses the term “woke” without a hint of irony is generally going to make a really stupid point.
This trend of calling anyone who denounces social inequalities "woke" is appalling. I generally expect a comment about how terrible critical race theory is and about a certain stolen election right after that.
 

Glaswegian

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When I was wee I thought every player with dreadlocks was amazing cause of Larsson, Seedorf and Davids.

I mind one night staying up watching the Dutch highlights on channel 5 and it was a Utrecht game that was on. Enter Robin Nelisse, couldn't hit a coo's arse way a banjo but by feck did I idolise him. School playground, I was him, pals thought I was some football expert cause I waxed lyrical about the big lanky dreadlocked striker for Utrecht. Even managed to get a top of theirs from Greaves Sports back in the day.
 

Solius

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For example, we were told that "England fans are racist because of the racist tweets after England's final loss".

It's frankly bollocks but the intellectual, woke class won't let that be the narrative.

Of all the huge amount of tweets in the shadow of England's final loss, the Guardian identifies 100 or so tweets. On further inspection approximately 70 or so of them actually came from England. But the media tells us that the tweets (from horrible, arsehole racist) tells us a thing about racism in this country? It's frankly bollocks.

Yes, those 70 or so people are awful. But they are not representative of the greater people. They are not a symptom of "deep rooted racism". They are 70 or so dickheads on Twitter from a population of 70million or so.

Stop focusing on a handful of dickheads and pretending they are the norm and instead realise that 99%+ of England fans are NOT like that. The media and a certain type of idiot love racism, despite their claims to hate it.

If you want to find an asshole in this world, you will. But actually try to appreciate the fact you need to look. This country is one of the best in the world for racial harmony. That doesn't mean it is perfect but so many of you lack a sense of perspective.
You do realise there are other ways to be racist than to outright post racist messages. It won’t only be ‘70’ people. There’s so much of it that’s deep rooted that people won’t even realise they’re doing it.

And to add to the chorus of replies you’re getting. Calling things ‘woke’ is never a good look. That word in itself has its origins in black culture and has been twisted to use as a stick to beat any attempt at change or improving society somewhat. Which is ironic really.
 

Oly Francis

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You do realise there are other ways to be racist than to outright post racist messages. It won’t only be ‘70’ people. There’s so much of it that’s deep rooted that people won’t even realise they’re doing it.

And to add to the chorus of replies you’re getting. Calling things ‘woke’ is never a good look. That word in itself has its origins in black culture and has been twisted to use as a stick to beat any attempt at change or improving society somewhat. Which is ironic really.
I think that's the core issue. Very racist people know that they are racist. When you call out more "subtle" forms of racism, it makes people realize they might have racist bias when they thought they weren't racists at all and they can't accept it. And then they use absurd expressions like "woke" or "social justice warriors" just because they think anti-racists are just being cry babies complaining about something that doesn't exist.
 

Zlatattack

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I honestly think that there is a small amount of racism in football but a lot of it is nonsense, invested in finding racism because it is important to a certain narrative.
I wouldn't class what is in this report as racism. People don't think this way because of hatred of another race. It's important we don't make it out as that.

What it is, is an unconscious bias based around racial stereotypes. Sometimes these are positive, other times negative. Kind of like if how you work in IT everyone assumes you can fix thier computer. It's a social stereotype. Racial versions of these can have a negative impact.
 

GatoLoco

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Even with that caveat, he's not far removed from the rest of the pack. Looking at Chelsea alone his teammate Chilwell beats him when it comes to these metrics, he generally has a lot more sprints over the season. This isn't to say Kante isn't amazing at this stuff as he obviously is, just that he's not significantly better than others who excel in these areas
Could you please show me those metrics? Because I have looked for them everywhere and I cannot find them other than quotes from Thomas Tuchel and Gregory Dupont speaking about them.

Gregory Dupont has said, in particular, that he's the player with the best performance in high intensity runs. Now, we know Kante is the player that has covered the most ground in certain competitions like some PremierLeague seasons and WC. Now I ask, which other players have excelled in both departments lately?
 

giorno

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I wouldn't class what is in this report as racism. People don't think this way because of hatred of another race. It's important we don't make it out as that.

What it is, is an unconscious bias based around racial stereotypes. Sometimes these are positive, other times negative. Kind of like if how you work in IT everyone assumes you can fix thier computer. It's a social stereotype. Racial versions of these can have a negative impact.
You're making the mistake of thinking racism = hatred

It's not even necessarily the case. What the report shows is very much a form of racism. Just because the people in question don't hate african people doesn't make it less racist

This ties in with what @Oly Francis said about the insidious, deep rooted nature of racism
 

Giant Midget

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Did they do any study on players who are red? Cause they all seem fecking shit to me.
 

Cascarino

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Could you please show me those metrics? Because I have looked for them everywhere and I cannot find them other than quotes from Thomas Tuchel and Gregory Dupont speaking about them.

Gregory Dupont has said, in particular, that he's the player with the best performance in high intensity runs. Now, we know Kante is the player that has covered the most ground in certain competitions like some PremierLeague seasons and WC. Now I ask, which other players have excelled in both departments lately?
He's literally in the post you quoted, Ben Chilwell. For the 18-19 season he had the most sprints in the entire league, while covering a comparable distance. The likes of Andrew Robertson posted similar numbers and has done ever since he joined Liverpool. I'd have to rebuy the stats program but I'm pretty sure Chilwell has topped the most sprints a game ever since joining Chelsea. So even if the criteria is distance covered and high intensity running, there's still players who post similar numbers to Kante (and even better ones crazily). Even focusing solely on players in similar positions, like Silva and Allan.

Again, not to say he isn't elite at this sort of stuff, just that he's a lot more than his physical qualities.
 

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You're making the mistake of thinking racism = hatred

It's not even necessarily the case. What the report shows is very much a form of racism. Just because the people in question don't hate african people doesn't make it less racist

This ties in with what @Oly Francis said about the insidious, deep rooted nature of racism
Correct.
 

arnie_ni

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Did Gary neville not support Lukaku? So of the quotes I seen led me to believe he did. One was along the lines of its refreshing to hear some honesty from players etc etc.