Are you bring sarcastic? You 'liberal European types' have three of your biggest clubs owned by these countries.They don't care. This particular 'sportswashing' exercise is not for us liberal European types. The rest of the world will love Qatar for this.
This argument has been refuted ten thousand times already.Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?
Also “we’re taking a knee because we know it can make a difference”. I’m a pale as feck white fecker with a white fecker upbringing so obviously it’ll be different for me but that knee yesterday was weak, rushed and about three seconds long, and stood for feck all after the events leading up to it that day. It looked like a theatre piece or superstition that the England team now just do before a match. You can bet your arse that if FIFA turned around and promised the same yellow card punishment for kneeling then they wouldn’t do that either. What’s the point of a symbol if you can drop it at the first sight of inconvience.Those Southgate ones are awful and show the weak fecker he is.
"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."
He comes across awfully with these lines. Really really poor.
How so it's been refuted? Summarize it if needed.This argument has been refuted ten thousand times already.
I started a thread about the protests following the killing of George Floyd. It had hundreds of pages and thousands of replies.Also, I hope you see this same energy in four more years when the world cup takes place in the US. Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?
I mean I know prompting a change of attitude in Qatar been trotted out as a reason for having the WC in Qatar, but I'm not sure anyone ever really believed it would change anything. As we can see so far it looks like they're just doubling down on their backward views as opposed to softening them.If that is true it kills every argument for having a WC in Qatar at all.
It seems the doubters were correct all along, yes. Good enough reason for me to never have another one in a place like Qatar again.I mean I know prompting a change of attitude in Qatar been trotted out as a reason for having the WC in Qatar, but I'm not sure anyone ever really believed it would change anything. As we can see so far it looks like they're just doubling down on their backward views as opposed to softening them.
Yeah, just keeping presuming you actually know who you are talking with. Presume you know what else I object to or support based on where I'm from.Are you bring sarcastic? You 'liberal European types' have three of your biggest clubs owned by these countries.
Also, I hope you see this same energy in four more years when the world cup takes place in the US. Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?
We're only a few days in and Qatar have made this event more about imposing their ''values'' than the football and shown themselves up on the world stage, who knows what else we're in store for over the next 3-4 weeks. And while mass bribery is always a possibility with FIFA I don't see another middle eastern regime getting to host a World Cup for a very long time after this absolute farce.It seems the doubters were correct all along, yes. Good enough reason for me to never have another one in a place like Qatar again.
I'd like a system where say the winner of the 2026 WC gets to host the 2030 one and so on. Would put an end to the corruption and make sure wherever it ends up people actually care enough about the game to show up.
Must be easy for you to say given you're likely not impacted by it and seemingly have zero empathy for those who are either.It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.
I started a thread about the protests following the killing of George Floyd. It had hundreds of pages and thousands of replies.
Only a few meager morons went into that asking "ye but what about the police in the middle east".
1. There is a "Current Events" forum on Redcafe. People there discuss "Current Events." If you go there, you will find threads about "illegal invasions", "human rights abuses", "gun violence", "restricted abortion rights", "transphobia", things of that nature. The general opinion you will find is that Redcafe posters are broadly against all those things. They do what they can within their own country to prevent those things from happening. You are levelling a charge of hypocrisy at an imaginary person.How so it's been refuted? Summarize it if needed.
Yep, and while that person most likely does exist, one cannot attack all of us on that probability.1. There is a "Current Events" forum on Redcafe. People there discuss "Current Events." If you go there, you will find threads about "illegal invasions", "human rights abuses", "gun violence", "restricted abortion rights", "transphobia", things of that nature. The general opinion you will find is that Redcafe posters are broadly against all those things. They do what they can within their own country to prevent those things from happening. You are levelling a charge of hypocrisy at an imaginary person.
2. This thread is about LGBT stuff, not Qatar WC as a whole. But the fundamental problem with Qatar WC is that the bulk of the harm done (the exploitation of labor) is a direct result of hosting the WC there; they did not have the infrastructure to host this project, the manpower, nor the legal structures and culture to prevent worker abuse; the inevitable outcome is excess human suffering in the service of a World Cup. Therefore our relationship to this harm, by 'consuming' this World Cup or condoning it, is very direct. This is not the case for a World Cup hosted in the U.S, as they already have the infrastructure to host a World Cup. If you take any kind of utilitarian or harm-reduction approach to this issue (and most people do to some extent), then a U.S. WC is almost certainly much better than a Qatar WC.
Comparing random people who probably can't risk being fired to a multi millionaire?Honest question, have you guys who wanted Kane etc to take the yellow actually ever done something like that in your field of work?
@Pintu has already answered this very well and I’ll just add - if we view every country in the prism of elements being similar to Nazi Germany, then guess what…literally every country can be Nazi Germany. It’s a lazy comparison to make and is just sensationalist. It doesn’t add any nuance or depth to a discussion.It’s a belief system that people CHOOSE to believe.
There are homosexual ‘conversion’ camps a short drive from where games are taking place.
Gay people are beaten in the streets and arrested for who they are. Punishable by death.
They are viewed as 2nd class citizens - LESS human… sound familiar?
There absolutely are similarities between Nazi Germany’s treatment of Jewish people and Qatar’s treatment of gays. It’s a totally valid comparison.
That’s the one! Thanks.
It's sad that this has to be explained to people.1. There is a "Current Events" forum on Redcafe. People there discuss "Current Events." If you go there, you will find threads about "illegal invasions", "human rights abuses", "gun violence", "restricted abortion rights", "transphobia", things of that nature. The general opinion you will find is that Redcafe posters are broadly against all those things. They do what they can within their own country to prevent those things from happening. You are levelling a charge of hypocrisy at an imaginary person.
2. This thread is about LGBT stuff, not Qatar WC as a whole. But the fundamental problem with Qatar WC is that the bulk of the harm done (the exploitation of labor) is a direct result of hosting the WC there; they did not have the infrastructure to host this project, the manpower, nor the legal structures and culture to prevent worker abuse; the inevitable outcome is excess human suffering in the service of a World Cup. Therefore our relationship to this harm, by 'consuming' this World Cup or condoning it, is very direct. This is not the case for a World Cup hosted in the U.S, as they already have the infrastructure to host a World Cup. If you take any kind of utilitarian or harm-reduction approach to this issue (and most people do to some extent), then a U.S. WC is almost certainly much better than a Qatar WC.
Its the national team....its nothing to do with money.Comparing random people who probably can't risk being fired to a multi millionaire?
The problem is if you can't bring yourself to say "homosexuality is morally ok", it creates a certain impression. Can you see what others might think about your reluctance to clear up where you stand?Respond to these together as I think it's appropriate.
Muslim is not just a label Islamically. It's two words/syllables mu and Islam.
In simple terms it's a verb and means to do Islam. There is no interpretation or culture or ideas. It is just that.
I claim to be a Muslim because I "do Islam". I don't care what someone interprets or what someone's culture or what someone's idea says or comes up with. I study and discuss and argue with Muslim people/scholars/imams all the time in my pursuit for what Islam is and should be. Sometimes I accept what they have said based on the evidences they have provided. Sometimes I leave them to their devices.
Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that
Then why did you compare it to people's jobs?Its the national team....its nothing to do with money.
I think it's pretty clear where he stands.The problem is if you can't bring yourself to say "homosexuality is morally ok", it creates a certain impression. Can you see what others might think about your reluctance to clear up where you stand?
There is extensive polling on this.That's fine and I'm glad you admit that not all Muslims agree with you.
I find it interesting to finally hear that you choose to believe in something that oppresses approximately 10% of the world's population for what they are rather than choices they have made.
I also think it is really important for everyone here and elsewhere to understand that not all Muslims believe this and Islam is not an inherently homophobic religion. Like Christianity and other major religions, some sadly choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin but many others do not and instead believe that inclusivity, justice and love for all humanity are far far more important.
How has Qatar played this brilliantly? They’ve been the subject of a large volume of highly critical press arising from yesterday’s events. Had the teams just been allowed to wear the rainbow armbands, the level of exposure would have been far lower and it would have been the nice but relatively pointless gesture it was intended to be.of course it's not, very few are genuinely surprised. but they're also being expectedly called out now, which they entirely deserve. that's what happens when you're so vocal about certain cause but your support collapse at the first sign of any kind of consequence.
several teams refused to wear armbands and made their stance clear a while ago. they are now joined by every other nation who will also not wear them, but only couple of them were exposed as full of shit hypocrites. if they can accept praise, they should accept criticism as well. that's how it goes.
Qatar played this brilliantly it seems. people are enjoying games under their rules, players and managers behave just as they want it and other nations will face criticism after all those talks and big words because they backed down under the threats of yellow card. Qatar will remain the same as they've always been, but from now on, every strong support talk from players and managers will be met with doubt and ridicule because all of that have been tested and proven to be just empty words.
It’s the equivalent of “all lives matter”. Qatar can also convince themselves that they aren’t discriminating against LGBT because all they are doing is punishing acts that they view as immoral and illegal.This is why FIFA’s approved No Discrimination armband as a replacement for OneLove is a load of rubbish. It’s doesn’t mean No Discrimination to All, because the narrative from FIFA and Qatar this entire time has been “Don’t discriminate against our way of life that allows us to persecute the LGBT community.“
FIFA have really fecked up. And any time they try to spout shit about how inclusive they are from now on these images and videos will be thrown back at them.
Or just evade and claim the nasty stuff is made up. Well made up by non Muslims or ex Muslims.So you're for all the nasty stuff in there too?
Tolerance paradoxIt’s the equivalent of “all lives matter”. Qatar can also convince themselves that they aren’t discriminating against LGBT because all they are doing is punishing acts that they view as immoral and illegal.
Do you live in Qatar? Let’s imagine VDV had taken the yellow card and worn the armband. What difference would it make? I wouldn’t get my hopes up that an armband overcomes thousands of years of Qatar’s backwards religion and the culture around it. It’s just empty, vain bollocks whether they “take a yellow” or not.Because they aren't just footballers, they're people who are members of our society and I'd like to live in a society that supports their fellow humans in the ways they need and deserve to be supported.
Why do I need to live in Qatar? You realise that despite countries in the world legalising homosexuality and gay marriage, homophobia still exists and is a societal issue across the world? This isn't just about Qatar.Do you live in Qatar? Let’s imagine VDV had taken the yellow card and worn the armband. What difference would it make? I wouldn’t get my hopes up that an armband overcomes thousands of years of Qatar’s backwards religion and the culture around it. It’s just empty, vain bollocks whether they “take a yellow” or not.
Depends on what they want from the tournament maybe?How has Qatar played this brilliantly? They’ve been the subject of a large volume of highly critical press arising from yesterday’s events. Had the teams just been allowed to wear the rainbow armbands, the level of exposure would have been far lower and it would have been the nice but relatively pointless gesture it was intended to be.
It would show LGBT football fans watching that there are players willing to stick there neck out there for their principles and risk disciplinary action to stand with them. It would show people that Fifa's bullying threats are less important than respect and inclusiveness. It would maybe give Qatar's LGBTQ communities hope that change is possible even if the present looks bleak. It would possibly bring greater awareness to the issue. It would show Fifa that players have power and that they should be wary because they are looked at in a more favourable way than the grubby administrators are. It would show the fans that players are not cowards and stooges who value football above human dignity.Do you live in Qatar? Let’s imagine VDV had taken the yellow card and worn the armband. What difference would it make? I wouldn’t get my hopes up that an armband overcomes thousands of years of Qatar’s backwards religion and the culture around it. It’s just empty, vain bollocks whether they “take a yellow” or not.
Perhaps. My assumption was that it was to raise prestige globally, which is clearly not helped by all the coverage of Qatar being a backwards country with outdated laws around basic human rights. I doubt anyone in the region is that impressed by their bullying of fifa - I suspect everyone already knows that throwing a few quid their way can generally get favourable outcomes…Depends on what they want from the tournament maybe?
If the goal is to present a benign face to the sort of countries who bridle at anti-LGBT measures, all that criticism is a problem. But if the goal is to project power within their own region then the fact that they're successfully bullying their way to a WC on their own terms to the dismay of pro-LGBT critics they disdain is possibly a plus.
Yes, I realize that. Just like I realise there’s all sorts of other bad stuff going on anywhere in the world at any time. I could decide one day that Luke Shaw’s opinion on Monsanto or American gun laws is really, really important. But what would be the point?Why do I need to live in Qatar? You realise that despite countries in the world legalising homosexuality and gay marriage, homophobia still exists and is a societal issue across the world? This isn't just about Qatar.
Yep, spinless fecks, but that doesn't mitigate the situation in Qatar. It's still shite.England and the other Western countries, with their behaviour here, have screamed:
"WE HAVE VALUES! WE HAVE GREAT VALUES! AND WE STAND BY OUR VALUES ... but only if there are zero negative consequences for us."
Simple, isn't it?
That's only true if they never get yellow cards or if a yellow card actually impacted a career. They risk it to celebrate a goal and argue over a throw in, but won't risk it for human rights. On a wider level they ,transgress hugely and still get taken back by clubs. They're spineless pricks.While I do support footballers trying to make moral or political statements for me it's still like hollywood celebrities thinking they are the beacon of humanity at the Oscars. Its unsurprising they back down the moment their career could be even slightly hurt. Fair fecks to the players of Iran and their supporters though.
If Monsanto sponsored United and Luke Shaw make a huge deal of it, then it would be relevant and have impact and highlight who they were to a wider audience. Context is huge. Qatar hasn't randomly been singled out.Yes, I realize that. Just like I realise there’s all sorts of other bad stuff going on anywhere in the world at any time. I could decide one day that Luke Shaw’s opinion on Monsanto or American gun laws is really, really important. But what would be the point?
I just don’t see footballers as having much (any) importance in solving it. I don’t see the point in feeling “let down” or “betrayed” when they feck it up. Not quoting your words, but it’s generally what’s going round.
People putting so much store in what footballers think and do outside of football just seems a bit mental to me. Most of their “views” are just following someone else, taken from their PR, or just a sense of what they should say. No wonder that when it comes to the crunch they put football first. That’s not good, but as I said, why hang so much on them in the first place?
Yeah they are like Hollywood celebrities. Agree that not even risking a yellow is spineless. But presumably they would get a yellow each game if they wore the armband correct?That's only true if they never get yellow cards or if a yellow card actually impacted a career. They risk it to celebrate a goal and argue over a throw in, but won't risk it for human rights. On a wider level they ,transgress hugely and still get taken back clubs. They're spineless pricks.
