I agree... I think there's a really useful player in Fred which we can unleash if we by the right partner for him. McTominnay too.. he can play the Fred role.
Formation change next season (4-3-3)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Yeah Locatelli looks pure quality. Actually, the balance in Italy's midfield is so good, switch Bruno for Barella and that would be a the kind of balance we need.
For me, I don't really see an obvious role for Pogba in the squad anymore. Of course, you want a player like him in your team, but the idea of changing style to squeeze him in alongside Bruno doesn't sit well with me.
As you said, someone like Locatelli is what we need in midfield. Something like Locatelli and Tielemans in a duo behind Bruno would be a massive upgrade on Fred and McTominay. Or even Pogba and one of Fred/McTominay.
Fernandes played in a three for sporting quite a lot didn’t he? He was a number 8 and still put in the numbers for goals and assist.
Even if Pogba, VdB and Bruno suit a 4-3-3, McT and Fred and Matic dont. Making it unsuitable.
An attacking 433- 235
Henderson
Maguire - Pau Torres
AWB - Rice - Shaw
Bruno - Pogba
Greenwood- Cavani - Rashford
The 442 Diamond with a false CB and a False 9/shadow striker
Henderson
AWB -Maguire - Torres - Shaw
Rice
Bruno - Pogba
VDB
Greenwood- Rashford
Henderson
Maguire - Pau Torres
AWB - Rice - Shaw
Bruno - Pogba
Greenwood- Cavani - Rashford
The 442 Diamond with a false CB and a False 9/shadow striker
Henderson
AWB -Maguire - Torres - Shaw
Rice
Bruno - Pogba
VDB
Greenwood- Rashford
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Yeah if Pogba leaves that would be ideal. Tielemans to me has Modric level talent. His next move someone will be getting a future World Class CM.
There's a really weird point in the Express article:I hear rumours about a coming formation change (4-3-3):
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...nsfer-news-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-formation-SNT
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...r-news/man-united-transfer-news-fred-20860203
Make sense to me because I consider our existing formation a result of reducing vulnerability or compensating for defensive shortcomings.
Discussion about transfers and own players very often limits itself to current system and formation. Would be fun if we use the next couple of months to think a little bit outside the box regarding formation and who plays where? Maybe Ole surprise us next season
- Maybe Ole wants to make some adjustments in order to utilize the potential of Pogba?
- Maybe Ole expect defensive issues to be solved this summer (transfer window)?
Pulling Fernandes and Pogba further back would then open up space in the team for another attacker, be that Marcus Rashford, Mason Greenwood or potential new signing Jadon Sancho.
How so? If you pull back the No 10 into a 3-man midfield line, there's still 3 remaining places in the forward line, just like before. Can't they count?
Well, it's not like 4231 is bad though. We just need to upgrade the base 2. Similarly even if it's 433, you still need to upgrade that DM.
Problem is not the formation but the quality of the players. Doesn't matter what formation we play.
Problem is not the formation but the quality of the players. Doesn't matter what formation we play.
I’m VERY surprised. Reliability issues when it was measured?
Fred sometimes look slow, maybe because he runs A LOT and very often is to tired to use his speed.
Maybe top speed isn’t everything? In my view McT has much more “drive” in his running.
I think most want 433 but if we do it Bruno needs to change how he plays in my opinion. I’d probably copy the France set up. I mean Kante isn’t really someone who sits as such. He goes about and gets at people and breaks stuff up. Fred where obviously not being as good could probably do that if he’s backed up with a flat 3 with Bruno and Pogba.
Now when we came back from Lockdown I’m sure there was a period of time where we played Bruno Fred and I’m sure it was mata and we played some really nice stuff. Probably some of the best stuff I’ve seen from Fred really. He was getting forward and helping out and was breaking up play.
He was backed becuase Shaw was playing a different role where he was between Opposition CB and RB and although he did quite well attacking between those two going inside of Rashford. It was working a treat but his primary role seemed to be as a player to hold midfield. That period was like I said some of the best stuff we’ve played and I think I’d happily sacrifice the width Shaw was providing this season for more of that. I actually believe this period was the catalyst for what we saw this season.
When in possesion and attacking it looks a bit more like this
Pogba just plays like he does for France hopefully, no big change for him. Hopefully ball retention, movement and use of the ball would improve as it would have to.
Now when we came back from Lockdown I’m sure there was a period of time where we played Bruno Fred and I’m sure it was mata and we played some really nice stuff. Probably some of the best stuff I’ve seen from Fred really. He was getting forward and helping out and was breaking up play.
He was backed becuase Shaw was playing a different role where he was between Opposition CB and RB and although he did quite well attacking between those two going inside of Rashford. It was working a treat but his primary role seemed to be as a player to hold midfield. That period was like I said some of the best stuff we’ve played and I think I’d happily sacrifice the width Shaw was providing this season for more of that. I actually believe this period was the catalyst for what we saw this season.
When in possesion and attacking it looks a bit more like this
Pogba just plays like he does for France hopefully, no big change for him. Hopefully ball retention, movement and use of the ball would improve as it would have to.
Mbappe plays on the left and I think that also suits Rashford more as he’s crap on the right. Pogba also looks better on the left and Bruno doesn’t really do a good job of playing the Kante or Rabiot role. So wouldn’t really work with that set up. VBD could do a good job though if management ever trusted him.I think most want 433 but if we do it Bruno needs to change how he plays in my opinion. I’d probably copy the France set up. I mean Kante isn’t really someone who sits as such. He goes about and gets at people and breaks stuff up. Fred where obviously not being as good could probably do that if he’s backed up with a flat 3 with Bruno and Pogba.
Now when we came back from Lockdown I’m sure there was a period of time where we played Bruno Fred and I’m sure it was mata and we played some really nice stuff. Probably some of the best stuff I’ve seen from Fred really. He was getting forward and helping out and was breaking up play.
He was backed becuase Shaw was playing a different role where he was between Opposition CB and RB and although he did quite well attacking between those two going inside of Rashford. It was working a treat but his primary role seemed to be as a player to hold midfield. That period was like I said some of the best stuff we’ve played and I think I’d happily sacrifice the width Shaw was providing this season for more of that. I actually believe this period was the catalyst for what we saw this season.
When in possesion and attacking it looks a bit more like this
Pogba just plays like he does for France hopefully, no big change for him. Hopefully ball retention, movement and use of the ball would improve as it would have to.
I like it but not against top teams.
For me Rashford playing on the right forces him to be a better team player and I think he makes much better choices from the right than the left which will hopefully improve the team as to me right now the team suffers with him on the left. I would however be giving he and Sancho Freedom to move and swap.
Pogba is playing on the right for France at the moment and looking every bit the baller. Bruno played deeper for Sporting and was probably a better team player there than he is for us, so hopefully he can change how he plays a bit to adapt to the role or basically just going back to what he was doing at Sporting.
I do agree in reality I would probably have to choose between Pogba or Bruno and have VDB as the midfielder in a 3 but Bruno and Pogba are both world class players so hopefully they can work it out. Then having Fred and Shaw doing the covering in midfield .
This, unfortunately.
Agreed.
Just playing a three man midfield doesn't solve anything. You need the right balance of players in there. Normally one will have a fair bit more freedom and attacking impact than the other two, and both Pogba and Bruno are most suited to playing that role. Well Bruno is most suited to being even further forward as a #10, but the two roles are largely the same.
The only way I can see both Pogba and Bruno working together in central areas is if we had an absolute workhorse on one of the wings. Like how France always play an extra midfielder there, or how in the past we would often play a Park or Hargreaves on a wing. None of our current options (or the hopefully incoming Sancho) can fill that role.
It's something we should definitely aim to try. Sign a DM and our team is so much better
There's nothing of substance in those articles, I wouldn't get your hopes up.
Firstly Rice isn't good enough to be a lone holding midfielder. Even if we signed him he'll end up playing in a double pivot with whoever is stinking up the place less out of McTominay and Fred.
Ole and the coaching staff don't have the tactical nous for new formations, we've seen that plenty of times already. Every time we tried something else, be it the diamond in midfield or 3 at the back, it ends in total disaster.
Firstly Rice isn't good enough to be a lone holding midfielder. Even if we signed him he'll end up playing in a double pivot with whoever is stinking up the place less out of McTominay and Fred.
Ole and the coaching staff don't have the tactical nous for new formations, we've seen that plenty of times already. Every time we tried something else, be it the diamond in midfield or 3 at the back, it ends in total disaster.
Using Pogba, Bruno with Sancho and Rashford on the wings, IMO, have 0 chance of ever properly working. It's fine using attacking wingers like that who don't do much defensively and clearly what we're going to do. But you need 2 more conservative and defensively sound midfielders at least around the playmaker. Bruno and Pogba in midfield could only work if our wingers were less forwards and more wide midfielders who did a good amount of defensive work too. There is no defensive mid who could make it work, not even Kante, because you need balance throughout the team. The only way to balance Rashford and Sancho on the wings is with a really hard working midfield. Bruno does fine as a 10 but the 2 behind him, while yes need to improve on the ball, also need to improve defensively as they aren't quite good enough in that regard either.
Oh, you mean like when we beat PSG and Leipzig?
But by all means, don't let the facts get in the way. After all, you're enough of an expert to be able to ascertain with confidence that the coaching staff are clueless.
There was me thinking we already pretty much played 4-3-3
Strange question
How familiar are you with Fred?
Watch every game, and have never considered him as a player who catch up speedy players or brings the ball forward with great “drive”
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Fans here reckon Bruno can play deep. Portugal don't seem to think so
Oddly so, as Fred is rapid and covers ground better than pretty much all midfielders in the game. Catching up players is his exact MO I’d say, but hey, we all interpret football differently I guess.Strange question
First game against PSG very much the exception that proves the rule.
If so we don’t need a new CM in a 4-3-3 formation.
Yeah? Didn't do too badly against Leipzig with the diamond either (5-0). According to footballcritic, we were 2-1-1 playing the diamond, and 1-0-1 with the 3412. So go on then, enlighten us about "the rule" to which the PSG game is apparently the exception: Which were all of these games where we supposedly "every time" ended in "total disaster"?
I think Bruno is the elephant in the room in this formation and Pogba is the elephant in the way we currently play 4-2-3-1. We basically have too many elephants. I’d like to see Bruno as a false 9 at some point just out of curiosity but he’d probably need to join City for that to happen.
I wonder why. Maybe they reckon that would be an unwise use of a player who outscored (G+A) every striker in the premier league except one, but who's not much of a tackler, marker, ball retainer or aerial player and who has the worst pass completion among all midfielders in his club.
Come on people - almost everything Bruno does well, he does in or around the opposition box. And almost everything he does badly, he does further back. To play him deep would be mental.
Should football formations be changed to be described by roman numerals?
Played 3 at the back from the start against Leipzig and pissed away the CL though didn't we? In the 5-0 we maybe started with a diamond but very rapidly it turned into a bog standard 4-2-3-1 with Fred dropping deeper with Matic and Pogba on the left. Solidified even more when Rashford and McTominay came on - we were 4-2-3-1 when 4 of those goals went in. And regardless, let's not re-write history, on the balance of play that Leipzig game could very easily have gone very differently.
I don't care what footballcritic says our formations were. It's evidently incapable of differentiating between formation changes within matches for starters.
Ole deviated formation for the Leipzig game and we bottled the CL. He deviated against Chelsea and Leicester in the FA cup runs and we bottled both games.
Its obvious mcfred wont win us anything. I have a feeling we will sign a dm/dlp this summer after the Euros and after Sancho and Verane or whoever we get at CM.
Brilliant. I'm switching to that right now. Personally, I much prefer the IVIIIIII to the IVIIIIII. Although sometimes against stronger opponents 3 at the back is the way to go, but then preferably IIIIVIII rather than IIIVII, or IIIIVIII. And sometimes against weak teams I think we should just go crazy, and use a IIIIIIIIII.
I think this is the point where your best option is to just admit you hadn't really thought things through when you claimed that every time we played something different than 4231 it ended in total disaster. It would be less embarrassing, at least.
Sorry that you apparently have no understanding of hyperbole.
The real embarrassments were trying to play tinkerman with the formation for the crunch tie vs Leipzig and crashing out of the CL despite two good opening wins in the group, and blowing two eminently winnable FA cup ties with dodgy squad rotations into a mostly alien formation.
Thankfully I don't need to consult 'footballcritic' to be able to see that every time we've played with a narrow diamond we have looked utter shite.
Oh, I understand hyperbole. Especially the two most important things about it, which is "don't use it if you want to make a serious argument", and "if you're already making an argument that is hard to sustain, hyperbole makes that worse". Also, if your point is something other than what you actually wrote, which the steady slide in what you're arguing indicates, then that's on you for not expressing yourself clearly, not on me for failing to mind read you and then make appropriate deductions for hyperbole.
"despite two good opening wins in the group": Yes, both of which were achieved with other formations than our usual.
You do seem to need to consult footballcritic, or at least something other than your own head, to work out in which of our games we've played with other formations than 4231. And do let me remind you that your point was that it's ended in disaster every time we tried to deviate from our usual formation because the coaching staff is too incompetent to manage that sort of thing, not that we looked shite whenever we played the narrow diamond.
Not that I'm much of a fan of the diamond myself. I agree actually that we've generally looked shite playing it, even against Leipzig where it worked. Or of 3412 for that matter, at least on a more than occasional basis. But the results when we have tinkered with formation have clearly been mixed rather than generally bad.
I agree with this. This is a point in my main criticism with recruitment of late. Seems to be little to no planning and ideas. I can’t see any way both players can play to their optimum in the same XI. And these are probably our two best players.
But 'accomodates pogba'
@justsomebloke
The thing for me about Bruno is that even though he is an CAM - he is never just sticking there. You will see him run around everywhere because he has a high work rate - usually ends up tackling a player that might have bypassed Mctominay or Fred - you will see him as deep as the defensive line at times.
That’s why I wonder why we can’t start Bruno a bit deeper and let him focus on making his runs forward rather than him starting forward and making runs back. The same with Pogba - 2 attacking minded CAM that start at CM but have the freedom to attack due to the right protecting CDM.
The thing for me about Bruno is that even though he is an CAM - he is never just sticking there. You will see him run around everywhere because he has a high work rate - usually ends up tackling a player that might have bypassed Mctominay or Fred - you will see him as deep as the defensive line at times.
That’s why I wonder why we can’t start Bruno a bit deeper and let him focus on making his runs forward rather than him starting forward and making runs back. The same with Pogba - 2 attacking minded CAM that start at CM but have the freedom to attack due to the right protecting CDM.
I agree. The 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 or 4-5-1 or 4-1-2-2-1 or however people like to call it is very versatile and can pretty much change entire with the midfield players and fullbacks you put on the field.
I reckon a midfield three composed out of Pogba - Fred - Bruno would behave completely different to a midfield out of McTom - Matic - Fred.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, put two more defensive minded players in that formation, and you get a fairly defensive midfield, put two attacking minded players in this midfield, and you get a really attacking midfield, think of de Bruyne and D. Silva for example, or balance it out and play a defensive minded player, a box to boxer and a really attacking player like Bruno. It all depends on the personal you choose, how attacking or defensive this midfield will be.