France 1998-2006

[horsechoker]

I've been watching some highlights from this era and France looked incredible, as good as any international side in history. However, I'm left wondering should this team have done better despite winning a World Cup and European Championship.

1998-2000 - Clearly the best team in the world

2002 World Cup - I don't know whether it was bad luck, fatigue, arrogance, injuries but going out at the group stages blighted this team

2004 Euros - Going out to a Greek side who were destined by god to win that tournament, probably should've beat Greece but you can't defeat destiny

2006 World Cup - They looked somewhat back to their best, with the legendary Zidane performance against Brazil. The final though will be one of football's what ifs. What if Zidane didn't headbutt Materazzi?

How would you rank them among great international teams? In some ways I think they were better than Spain 2008-2012 despite winning less.

 

[Gio]

I'm not sure about under-achievement as winning 1 World Cup, 1 Euros and reaching the final of another World Cup is an impressive return for any group of players. For instance, they are one of only three teams - along with West Germany 1972-1974 and Spain 2008-2012 - to have held both the World Cup and Euros at the same time.

In 1998 they were at their defensive peak, a world-class back four shielded by a hard-grafting midfield. They were underwhelming going forward though and relied on defenders to score all their knockout goals until the final. And even then netted through two set-pieces as opposed to open play. Still I would rate that team as one of the hardest to beat in international history.

Euro 2000 was probably their pinnacle as a team as Vieira lifted the midfield while Henry was electric in his best ever international tournament. Zidane was at the peak of his powers and, unlike 1998, available throughout to dominate matches. By 2002 though, the defence was well past its sell-by date and they were vulnerable to pace and lacked the compactness that swallowed up and spat out Brazil in the 1998 final. While new players had emerged by 2006, they remained singularly reliant on Zidane to spark them into life. They were dreadful in the group stages and, even had they prevailed in the final, I don't think that version goes down as a particularly memorable tournament winner.

 

[11101]

I think they got it about right.


In 1998 Brazil should have beaten them. If not for the Ronaldo situation i think they would have done.

In 2002 they had too many old players who were still hanging around because of their names.

2006 should have been their year. They should have beaten Italy.

 

[harms]

1998-2000 - Clearly the best team in the world

I'm not sure if they were the best team in the world in 1998 though. Brazil were better and I have a feeling that they would've won it if not for Ronaldo's seizure. Not sure if they were better than the Dutch team, but we'll never know. They had massively improved offensively in 2000 (mostly thanks to Zidane performing in a much more consistent fashion and also not missing half of the tournament) and Ronaldo already began his downfall at that point, so I'll give you that (also that Netherland's team had never reached its full potential because of the internal issues).

Overall I'd say that they had achieved about the same as they deserved. They were a bit lucky in the beginning and were a bit unlucky at the end of that time period, but overall it evens it out.

Spain were better though. They had dominated 3 major tournaments in a row, as well as both of the club continental competitions, and I wouldn't say that they were lucky in any of their campaigns. They were insanely boring in 2010 and didn't score a lot, but they were better than every one of their opponents for me. I would've loved to see Robben score that one-on-one, but having Iniesta putting in another MOTM performance had compensated for it.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

2004 Euros - Going out to a Greek side who were destined by god to win that tournament, probably should've beat Greece but you can't defeat destiny

I think you meant gods, they have a lot!

 

[11101]

I'm not sure if they were the best team in the world in 1998 though. Brazil were better and I have a feeling that they would've won it if not for Ronaldo's seizure. Not sure if they were better than the Dutch team, but we'll never know. They had massively improved offensively in 2000 (mostly thanks to Zidane performing in a much more consistent fashion and also not missing half of the tournament) and Ronaldo already began his downfall at that point, so I'll give you that (also that Netherland's team had never reached its full potential because of the internal issues).

Overall I'd say that they had achieved about the same as they deserved. They were a bit lucky in the beginning and were a bit unlucky at the end of that time period, but overall it evens it out.

Spain were better though. They had dominated 3 major tournaments in a row, as well as both of the club continental competitions, and I wouldn't say that they were lucky in any of their campaigns. They were insanely boring in 2010 and didn't score a lot, but they were better than every one of their opponents for me. I would've loved to see Robben score that one-on-one, but having Iniesta putting in another MOTM performance had compensated for it.

I don't want to derail the topic too much but nobody will ever convince me they weren't doped to the eyeballs. That sullies their reputation for me.

 

[Luke1995]

I know the thread covers up until 2006, but this seems like a good place to ask what the hell happened in 2010 ?

 

[JPRouve]

I know the thread covers up until 2006, but this seems like a good place to ask what the hell happened in 2010 ?

Subpar team and very poor man-management. Players were frustrated because Domenech would ask them to play in ways that didn't suit them and would then criticize them for not being able to appl;y it to a great standard, Anelka was the best example, Domenech wanted to see him play as a poacher which is the opposite of what Anelka was. Eventually, the tension between the coaching staff and the players was too big and Knysna happened.

 

[tjb]

Subpar team and very poor man-management. Players were frustrated because Domenech would ask them to play in ways that didn't suit them and would then criticize them for not being able to appl;y it to a great standard, Anelka was the best example, Domenech wanted to see him play as a poacher which is the opposite of what Anelka was. Eventually, the tension between the coaching staff and the players was too big and Knysna happened.

It wasn't that subpar a team on paper. Players like Malouda, Nasri, Anelka and Ribery were in that team. They did not take Benzema, but an aging Henry wasn't bad at the time. In defence they had Evra, Sagna, Gallas and Abidal, which was a good defence relatively speaking at that time. The only truly weak area of that squad was the midfield. Personally on paper, it was a better squad than 2010 Brazil, yet they were dumped out.

 

[JPRouve]

It wasn't that subpar a team on paper. Players like Malouda, Nasri, Anelka and Ribery were in that team. They did not take Benzema, but an aging Henry wasn't bad at the time. In defence they had Evra, Sagna, Gallas and Abidal, which was a good defence relatively speaking at that time. The only truly weak area of that squad was the midfield. Personally on paper, it was a better squad than 2010 Brazil, yet they were dumped out.

People should really stop with the "on paper", football isn't played on paper. It wasn't a balanced team and the players didn't fit with each others, it wasn't good defensively and was totally unable to control or break any game due to the total absence of top quality in midfield. The right side was also completely useless going forward.

That team was terrible for a while and pretty bad in 2008 too, so 2010 wasn't a surprise.

 

[tjb]

People should really stop with the "on paper", football isn't played on paper. It wasn't a balanced team and the players didn't fit with each others, it wasn't good defensively and was totally unable to control or break any game due to the total absence of top quality in midfield. The right side was also completely useless going forward.

That team was terrible for a while and pretty bad in 2008 too, so 2010 wasn't a surprise.

I know. At the time, people were far too focused on Gourcuff becoming the midfield savior. There was also a little moment when there was hype around Marvin Martin.Really dark times in midfield for them.

 

[Full bodied red]

I know the thread covers up until 2006, but this seems like a good place to ask what the hell happened in 2010 ?

Karma happened.

They shouldn't have been there anyway - ask anyone from the Republic of Ireland whether they should have been there.

 

[horsechoker]

Karma happened.

They shouldn't have been there anyway - ask anyone from the Republic of Ireland whether they should have been there.

Why? What did they do?

 

[JPRouve]

Why? What did they do?

Henry's handball?

 

[Sayros]

I think they did very well with that group, there's that curse of winning the world cup + euro that says you have to go out in the group stages the next edition, and France simply had to oblige.

The biggest surprises for me were 2004 and 2006. I don't think anybody expected France (or the rest of the teams) to get beat by Greece or to get to the WC final the next international tournament.

As far as France losing to Brazil if R9 didn't get ill, I don't buy it. Ronaldo wouldn't have turned around 3-0 on his own, especially with France playing their first final ever on home soil, and R9 got himself in plenty of good positions and had chances to score but Barthez was simply on a different level that night, as was the whole team. The fact is, playing Brazil consistently brings out the best of France and it's been a very long time since they've been able to beat France in any international competition (outside of friendlies which I don't count).

 

[paraguayo]

Which French title winning generation do you guys think is better?

France 1998-2004 (Vieira, Thuram, Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Makelele, Desailly, Djorkaeff)

or Current France (Griezmann, Pogba, Mbappe, Kante, Giroud, Varane, Lloris)

 

[Infordin]

Which French title winning generation do you guys think is better?

France 1998-2004 (Vieira, Thuram, Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Makelele, Desailly, Djorkaeff)

or Current France (Griezmann, Pogba, Mbappe, Kante, Giroud, Varane, Lloris)

1998-2004 was better.

A combined XI of the two teams would probably look like this:

Lloris
Thuram - Desailly - Varane - Lizarazu
Kante - Vieira
Mbappe - Zidane - Henry
Trezeguet​

 

[Robertd0803]

How would you rank them among great international teams? In some ways I think they were better than Spain 2008-2012 despite winning less.

I think Spain would have beaten them if there was some way they could play each other.

Karma happened.

They shouldn't have been there anyway - ask anyone from the Republic of Ireland whether they should have been there.

Damn right.

 

[Canagel]

Which French title winning generation do you guys think is better?

France 1998-2004 (Vieira, Thuram, Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Makelele, Desailly, Djorkaeff)

or Current France (Griezmann, Pogba, Mbappe, Kante, Giroud, Varane, Lloris)

Old group won WC+ Euros, in terms of achievement it's quite easy

If Current one wins next Euros it will be good to revisit

 

[Luke1995]

Karma happened.

They shouldn't have been there anyway - ask anyone from the Republic of Ireland whether they should have been there.

Karma to Thierry Henry you mean ? It's not the other players fault that he threw his hands at the ball

 

[Luke1995]

Subpar team and very poor man-management. Players were frustrated because Domenech would ask them to play in ways that didn't suit them and would then criticize them for not being able to appl;y it to a great standard, Anelka was the best example, Domenech wanted to see him play as a poacher which is the opposite of what Anelka was. Eventually, the tension between the coaching staff and the players was too big and Knysna happened.

In that environment, wasn't the key player's job to put some leadership into that dressing room ? You'd expect Henry, Evra and even Anelka to step up and tell the group to sit the hell down.

Except if the coach was the only problem...

 

[JPRouve]

In that environment, wasn't the key player's job to put some leadership into that dressing room ? You'd expect Henry, Evra and even Anelka to step up and tell the group to sit the hell down.

Except if the coach was the only problem...

No, because the problem was that the leaders were ignored by Domenech for months, the leadership is the reason why things didn't implode sooner but when he turned against Anelka it was over, the leaders gave up on the coaching staff.

 

[FootballHQ]

They very nearly didn't qualify for 2006 world cup.

Were in that ridiculously tight qualifying group with Republic of Ireland, Swiss and Israel where all the key games seemed to end in draws until France went to Dublin and won 1-0, likes of Zidane and Makelele came out of retirement for that game and Zidane stayed around for the world cup.

Even in the world cup they weren't far off going in the group stages, drew with Swiss again and also South Korea and were 0-0 with Togo until 50th minute. Then Zidane and Henry got going in the knock outs.

I wonder looking back if the french guys had rather they'd have just bowed out in quarters or something as then Domenech got a new contract and he persided over the awful performances and morale in 2008 and 2010, both group stage exits.

Their peak was 98-00. Even in 2000 qualifying they only got through last game (can remember them losing to Russia at home and only winning 1-0 v Andorra with a late goal).

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

A match that really stands out to me when France were at their pomp wasn't even a competitive match, but when they went to Istanbul and thumped Turkey 4-0 in a friendly in late 2000, in front of a very hostile crowd. Turkey were a very good team around then, and both teams weren't quite at full strength but still fielded strong starting line-ups.


I remember watching Euro 2000 and being amazed at their strength in depth, which was far beyond what they had in 1998, especially in the striker department with Henry, Anelka, Trezeguet and Wiltord. In their final group game against a stacked Netherlands team, they played a second string team apart from Desailly and Vieira (I think), and still played very well in a hugely entertaining game (in a hugely entertaining tournament). The Netherlands needed to win that match and the group far more than France did, otherwise they would have played their quarter-final and potential semi-final in Belgium rather than in their own country.

On a side note, generally the best international tournaments I've seen in my lifetime, are ones that France have happened to win. I've seen the last 6 World Cups starting from 1998, and 1998 and 2018 were clearly the best ones; 2006 and 2014 were good and 2002 and 2010 were poor. I've seen the last 5 European Championships starting from 2000, and Euro 2000 was clearly the best one; in fact I think Euro 2000 is the best international tournament that I've seen bar none and ahead of any World Cup. Euro 2008 was also excellent and comes in second place. I've seen more extensive coverage of Euro 96 during this lockdown, and it seemed like that was the weakest out of the 5 Euros from 1996-2012 with the perfect 16 team format.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

They very nearly didn't qualify for 2006 world cup.

Were in that ridiculously tight qualifying group with Republic of Ireland, Swiss and Israel where all the key games seemed to end in draws until France went to Dublin and won 1-0, likes of Zidane and Makelele came out of retirement for that game and Zidane stayed around for the world cup.

Even in the world cup they weren't far off going in the group stages, drew with Swiss again and also South Korea and were 0-0 with Togo until 50th minute. Then Zidane and Henry got going in the knock outs.

I wonder looking back if the french guys had rather they'd have just bowed out in quarters or something as then Domenech got a new contract and he persided over the awful performances and morale in 2008 and 2010, both group stage exits.

Their peak was 98-00. Even in 2000 qualifying they only got through last game (can remember them losing to Russia at home and only winning 1-0 v Andorra with a late goal).

That Euro 2000 qualifying campaign was memorably depressing from Russian point of view. The football Union appointing the has-been and well known since the early 90s to be tactically inept Anatoliy Byshovets as manager - seemingly only due to a few good months of form for Zenit - almost killed that campaign before it started as he lost all six games in charge, which included the first 3 qualifiers. Fair enough that despite some bad decisions and lineup choices the opening 3-2 losses to Ukraine and France were results that could have happened to any manager, but for the 3rd and now already must win game against Iceland (who were very well organised defensively that campaign) he put out a bizarre 4-6-0'ish lineup with no forwards that ended up losing 1-0 after a comical late own goal blunder.

To then get back into the group after changing manager and bring it down to having the chance to top the group on the last day, only to be foiled and crash out completely after an even more comical late goalkeeping blunder that resulted in the 1-1 draw with Ukraine was a devastating sickener at the time for most fans of my age.

France were cutting the margins thin in a few games in that group, besides the late penalty against Andorra and early 1-1 draw with Iceland, there was the last two games against Armenia and Iceland won both 3-2, with the final Iceland game in particular just an own goal and bit of classic Trezeguet poaching away from the play-offs. Shows the often slim margins in the deeper eras of international football, as just a couple of things going slightly differently in that group and you could have a team that solidfies it's greatness in the actual tournament not even qualifying at all.

 

[FootballHQ]

Interesting summary @Demyanenko_square_jaw . I always remember Ukraine around that point always failing in the play offs despite Shevchenko-Rebrov at their peak, I think for euro 2000 they fell to a shock defeat to Slovenia (who 10 years later would then shock a Hiddink led Russia in world cup play offs). Then they finally made a major tournament in 2006 when both were past their peak but were in easiest group of the tournament and somehow got to the quarter finals.

Russia had some lovely players around that time in midfield, Mostovoi and Karpin stand out although I think Karpin retired early from a dispute. Mostovoi played on until euro 2004.

Really Ukraine should've won that group, had 0-0s home and away v France but messed up with 1-1 draw at home to Iceland and 0-0 in Armenia. Looked like Andorra were pretty tough to break down aswell, Russia only won 2-1 there near the end.

 

[MoskvaRed]

France were very good value in Euro 2000 even they very nearly lost the final to Italy. In 98, the most you can say is that they got the job done on home soil. It certainly wasn’t entertaining (like England in 66 I suspect).

The French team of the 80s was also superb - WC semi-final (and should have got to the final), EC Winner, WC semi-final. A contender for best side never to win the World Cup.

 

[Sayros]

France were very good value in Euro 2000 even they very nearly lost the final to Italy. In 98, the most you can say is that they got the job done on home soil. It certainly wasn’t entertaining (like England in 66 I suspect).

The French team of the 80s was also superb - WC semi-final (and should have got to the final), EC Winner, WC semi-final. A contender for best side never to win the World Cup.

The French team of the 80's was by far the most beautiful to watch. I still believe if they never got absolutely robbed by the shocking Battiston-Schumacher incident, the WC could have been France's much sooner.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Their physicallity was something to behold, no other side could put together so many players of elite physicallity, especially in Europe. They basically bullied teams into submission.

It also helps to have a technical leader of the standard of Zidane who continually does things no other player on the pitch even tries. It gave the side direction in the midst of all physical play.

The only regret for them is they didn't have a collective peak. When Zidane was at his best, Henry was still learning the game and Pires wasn't trusted. Anelka lost his way and Desaily was getting old. 2002 was as close to a collective peak that they would have had but they made a mess of things in Zidanes absence.

Imo they'd have beaten the Spain side, the pretty much wouldve bullied them, got the ball to Zidane and let the quick forwards run wild as he released them into space.

 

[RooneyLegend]

As far as France losing to Brazil if R9 didn't get ill, I don't buy it. Ronaldo wouldn't have turned around 3-0 on his own, especially with France playing their first final ever on home soil, and R9 got himself in plenty of good positions and had chances to score but Barthez was simply on a different level that night, as was the whole team. The fact is, playing Brazil consistently brings out the best of France and it's been a very long time since they've been able to beat France in any international competition (outside of friendlies which I don't count).

While I'm also of the opinion that it isn't as easy as saying had Ronaldo been fit Brazil would've won, they really struggled in that match and Ronaldo was basically non existent. They pretty much played a man short and that's on the coach as much as anything.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Their physicallity was something to behold, no other side could put together so many players of elite physicallity, especially in Europe. They basically bullied teams into submission.

It also helps to have a technical leader of the standard of Zidane who continually does things no other player on the pitch even tries. It gave the side direction in the midst of all physical play.

The only regret for them is they didn't have a collective peak. When Zidane was at his best, Henry was still learning the game and Pires wasn't trusted. Anelka lost his way and Desaily was getting old. 2002 was as close to a collective peak that they would have had but they made a mess of things in Zidanes absence.

Imo they'd have beaten the Spain side, the pretty much wouldve bullied them, got the ball to Zidane and let the quick forwards run wild as he released them into space.

I disagree about Spain. I remember them humiliating a good Italian side in the 2012 final. France were never that far ahead of the pack. Xavi, Iniesta and Alonso against the likes of Deschamps and Petit would have been like one of those two finals United lost..

 

[KirkDuyt]

We beat them in euro 2000 and wouldve won the whole thing if not for that fecking bottle job against Italy. Cnuts.

 

[Peyroteo]

Don't think I've ever rooted against an international team as much as them. We should have made one final either in 2000 or 2006, played better than them in both semis and got knocked out by a stupid penalty twice.

 

[harms]

We beat them in euro 2000 and wouldve won the whole thing if not for that fecking bottle job against Italy. Cnuts.

That is entirely possible, but that group game shouldn't be overestimated — they basically gave it away even before it began by benching Zidane, Blanc, Thuram, Lizarazu, Henry and even Barthez (how were they going to win it when Blanc was kissing his bald head on the bench?). And even then it was surprisingly competitive.

 

[Sayros]

That is entirely possible, but that group game shouldn't be overestimated — they basically gave it away even before it began by benching Zidane, Blanc, Thuram, Lizarazu, Henry and even Barthez (how were they going to win it when Blanc was kissing his bald head on the bench?). And even then it was surprisingly competitive.

I was going to post that, but you nailed it. If one thinks beating that French team meant the Netherlands were going to win it all if not for XYZ, that's some serious mental gymnastics.

Don't think I've ever rooted against an international team as much as them. We should have made one final either in 2000 or 2006, played better than them in both semis and got knocked out by a stupid penalty twice.

One of my best friends is Portugese, and he's suffered a lot watching games with me over the years (to my delight, I might add) but to be fair, Euro 2016 helped restored some balance as Portugal was the poorer side but managed to win, in France of all places, and for the first time in our friendship I was miserable and couldn't hear the end of it until the WC. I still remember the whole debacle around Zidane's penalty in 2000, Figo didn't even want to play anymore, but it was absolutely a handball, just like it was a penalty for the foul on Henry in '06 (come to think of it, Henry was involved in both situations). I honestly don't remember if Portugal really was the better side, but it's not as if they got beat by incorrect decisions.

 

[harms]

Don't think I've ever rooted against an international team as much as them. We should have made one final either in 2000 or 2006, played better than them in both semis and got knocked out by a stupid penalty twice.

Interesting. I'll need to rewatch that 2000 semi-final, it's been on my list anyway, from what I remember it was a fantastic game.

 

[Infordin]

France had quite a rivalry with Italy around this time too.

World Cup 1998: France beats Italy on penalties to advance to the semifinal
Euro 2000: France beats Italy 2-1 in extra time in the final
World Cup 2006: Italy beats France on penalties in the final

In my opinion Italy 1998-2006 was not inferior to France 1998-2006 overall, the two teams were evenly matched.

The one glaring difference is that Italy’s side changed a lot from 1998 to 2006. Only Cannavaro was a starter for both teams.

You could argue that Italy’s peak was around 2004, when they theoretically could have fielded this lineup:

Buffon
Panucci - Cannavaro - Nesta - Zambrotta
Pirlo - Gattuso
Camoranesi - Totti - Del Piero
Vieri​

What a team that could/would have been. Unfortunately the coach was too old and stubborn.

 

[Peyroteo]

One of my best friends is Portugese, and he's suffered a lot watching games with me over the years (to my delight, I might add) but to be fair, Euro 2016 helped restored some balance as Portugal was the poorer side but managed to win, in France of all places, and for the first time in our friendship I was miserable and couldn't hear the end of it until the WC. I still remember the whole debacle around Zidane's penalty in 2000, Figo didn't even want to play anymore, but it was absolutely a handball, just like it was a penalty for the foul on Henry in '06 (come to think of it, Henry was involved in both situations). I honestly don't remember if Portugal really was the better side, but it's not as if they got beat by incorrect decisions.

I still think with the power in the shot it was pretty much impossible to get the hand out of the way. In a game of that importance after 117 minutes of 2 teams cancelling eachother out you don't call that imo but it is what it is. To this day it feels like a harsh decision. Anelka was offside for Henry's equalizer too...

It's true that 2016 made up for it all but for the 15/20 years before that it was heartbreak after heartbreak for us. Always knocked out by the smallest of margins in fairly even games and often with bad refereeing involved.

Interesting. I'll need to rewatch that 2000 semi-final, it's been on my list anyway, from what I remember it was a fantastic game.

It's worth watching for nostalgia but it wasn't very entertaining, played out like a final and a penalty shootout to decide it would have been fair as no team did enough to win really. Zidane was brilliant in the 2000 game, in 2006 he was pretty much nullified after tearing Brazil apart in the quarters. Still put his penalty away though of course.

 

[paraguayo]

I still think with the power in the shot it was pretty much impossible to get the hand out of the way. In a game of that importance after 117 minutes of 2 teams cancelling eachother out you don't call that imo but it is what it is. To this day it feels like a harsh decision. Anelka was offside for Henry's equalizer too...

It's true that 2016 made up for it all but for the 15/20 years before that it was heartbreak after heartbreak for us. Always knocked out by the smallest of margins in fairly even games and often with bad refereeing involved.



It's worth watching for nostalgia but it wasn't very entertaining, played out like a final and a penalty shootout to decide it would have been fair as no team did enough to win really. Zidane was brilliant in the 2000 game, in 2006 he was pretty much nullified after tearing Brazil apart in the quarters. Still put his penalty away though of course.

How do you guys remember Scolari? He reached the Euro finals and got 3rd in the world cup.

 

[Peyroteo]

How do you guys remember Scolari? He reached the Euro finals and got 3rd in the world cup.

As a person he's beloved, as a manager it depends on who you ask really as national team managers always get extreme criticism here. He got historically great results, might feel normal now to see Portugal as contenders for trophies but at the time what he did was very special.