France : proposal to ban wearing of the veil for minors and the Burkini

[africanspur]

It's difficult to know where to start with this.
Your reference is an incident in the USA.
The last sentence I was referring to was the last sentence - ie you think it's islamophobic for someone to be upset after an Islamic Terrorist attack????? Really.

You seem to know a lot about my life but actually know nothing, just assumptions which are of course all completely wrong.
Giving you a small clue, which you've had many times in another thread, working for an international trading group with offices in the UK, France and many other countries, working with colleagues, friends right across the world. Another clue, the owners were not British or white. How many thousands of people I know, difficult to say.

Before that when I was younger I worked mainly in North and Central London, even for a while next to door to the White Hart Lane stadium. One isolated example among thousands - My best friend at that time was a Muslim of Pakistani origin. I said to him regularly, how do you put up with all this abuse? His reply was that he didn't want any trouble and just wanted to fit in. Pretending it didn't happen. Sounds familiar.

The attitude of Zemmour in France and Braverman in the UK - both trying so hard to be more French or English according to their views so that the racists and xenophobes won't notice.

Also my wife's sister married a Muslim half French/Algerian. I knew all his side of the family as well who lived in France. My younger daughter married a Buddhist.

Now you're talking about the hijab - you told some other poster we were talking about the abaya.

Anyway, appararently the abaya is not now a religious item of clothing, therefore if it is banned it has nothing to do with religion any more than a baseball cap does and therefore would not be deemed as islamaphobic to ban it? So much flip-flopping.

Jesus fecking christ.

Can you even read my post or the article linked? Sikh people were physically attacked because some absolute idiots thought a turban makes them Muslim. Do you think that's islamophobic or not? How can you not understand what I'm trying to say?

Attacking a sikh person is a little bit more than just being upset no?

So you're not white British and don't live in the French countryside? Because that's what I said so I'm interested to see what assumptions were wrong there? I know your job, you mention it in an almost weekly basis.

Among thousands of personal examples . You've got actual Muslims on this thread also explaining their perception of islamophobia in France.


We're talking about the hijab because we're now talking about islamophobia in France as a general topic. I don't have any close family friends who wear the abaya. I do have some who wear the hijab though which is why I referenced them. They can go swimming in public pools in the UK for one thing.

You can't even get that physically attacking a sikh person because of a recent islamist attack and perception that they are Muslims is islamophobic. You deem this to 'be upset'. I don't expect you therefore to get my point about the abaya,even though there clearly isn't any flip flopping.

But hey ho, let's just agree that everything about France is perfect eh?

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Anyway, appararently the abaya is not now a religious item of clothing, therefore if it is banned it has nothing to do with religion any more than a baseball cap does and therefore would not be deemed as islamaphobic to ban it? So much flip-flopping.

If the motivation and justification for the ban was that it broke the rules of secularism then of course it has something to do with religion. If I, Philip feckwit the II, attack Billy Whizz because I think he's gay it doesn't make it not a homophobic attack just because it transpires he's heterosexual.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Jesus fecking christ.

Can you even read my post or the article linked? Sikh people were physically attacked because some absolute idiots thought a turban makes them Muslim. Do you think that's islamophobic or not? How can you not understand what I'm trying to say?

Attacking a sikh person is a little bit more than just being upset no?

So you're not white British and don't live in the French countryside? Because that's what I said so I'm interested to see what assumptions were wrong there? I know your job, you mention it in an almost weekly basis.

Among thousands of personal examples . You've got actual Muslims on this thread also explaining their perception of islamophobia in France.


We're talking about the hijab because we're now talking about islamophobia in France as a general topic. I don't have any close family friends who wear the abaya. I do have some who wear the hijab though which is why I referenced them. They can go swimming in public pools in the UK for one thing.

You can't even get that physically attacking a sikh person because of a recent islamist attack and perception that they are Muslims is islamophobic. You deem this to 'be upset'. I don't expect you therefore to get my point about the abaya,even though there clearly isn't any flip flopping.

But hey ho, let's just agree that everything about France is perfect eh?

What?
This is definitely surreal.
Sikh people were attacked in the US mistakenly because some people thought they were Muslims. And the connection with children not wearing religious items in France? This is surreal.

Muslims explaining their "perception" of islamophobia in France - what as written in the UK press?, what about their perception of islamophobia in the UK or other countries.

What are you actually trying to say because you are flip-flopping all over the place, USA, now hijabs, now I'm white (you assume) and of British origin and live in the French countryside - I don't know any Muslims? What are you trying to say? What does living in the French countryside got to do with anything?
By the way men can't go swimming in France in a public swimming pool unless they wear speedos. But they could be White, Black, Green, Pink with blue spots and be Muslims/Christians/Hindus/ Buddhists or atheists, nothing to do with religion.

Who said France is perfect. Trying to pretend that there is not a serious problem with racism and xenophobia in the UK is laughable. There are racists and xenophobes in every country in the world.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

My opinion on this? It is peak stupidity and shows how far extreme secularisation can go.

I honestly don't ever want to see that kind of crappy decision in my home country, even when there are a few idiots on the right pushing for similar extremes.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If the motivation and justification for the ban was that it broke the rules of secularism then of course it has something to do with religion. If I, Philip feckwit the II, attack Billy Whizz because I think he's gay it doesn't make it not a homophobic attack just because it transpires he's heterosexual.

That's not what I'm saying. If the ban is wrong and the abaya is not deemed a religious item then why are Muslims upset and class it as islamophobia. They can't have it both ways.
Personally they can wear what they like.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I am a Sikh person. I was physically attacked after the Paris attack. By a French person. In the UK. He thought I was Muslim.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

That's not what I'm saying. If the ban is wrong and the abaya is not deemed a religious item then why are Muslims upset and class it as islamophobia. They can't have it both ways.
Personally they can wear what they like.

I honestly don't know if the abaya is religious or not, but a law banning a purely cultural item for reasons of religion makes for stronger evidence of prejudice than otherwise. It targets a specific culture, demonstrates a lack of understanding of that culture and by extolling secular ideals as motive intimates an underlying fear that said culture is automatically religious. It would be an undue burden brought on a specific group of people for a specious reason.

 

[africanspur]

I am a Sikh person. I was physically attacked after the Paris attack. By a French person. In the UK. He thought I was Muslim.

Be quiet Peter, Paul knows far more about Sikhs' lived experiences than you do.

 

[africanspur]

If the motivation and justification for the ban was that it broke the rules of secularism then of course it has something to do with religion. If I, Philip feckwit the II, attack Billy Whizz because I think he's gay it doesn't make it not a homophobic attack just because it transpires he's heterosexual.

Thank god someone gets it, wanted to make sure I hadn't gone completely insane and what I was writing actually made sense.

 

[africanspur]

That's not what I'm saying. If the ban is wrong and the abaya is not deemed a religious item then why are Muslims upset and class it as islamophobia. They can't have it both ways.
Personally they can wear what they like.

You seem to spend a lot of time defending policies you personally apparently don't agree with?

 

[The Corinthian]

I have no idea wtf @Paul the Wolf is arguing. France is a deeply Islamaphobic country.

French-Algerian Footballer Sanctioned for “Allah is great” on his T-shirt

Spoiler: pic of the player

Islamophobia in France: Olympique Marseille player Enzo Sternal who is of Algerian origin has reportedly been excluded from France's Under-16 national squad for 'behavioural reasons' after he celebrated a goal revealing his undershirt, which said 'Allah is Great'

 

[africanspur]

What?
This is definitely surreal.
Sikh people were attacked in the US mistakenly because some people thought they were Muslims. And the connection with children not wearing religious items in France? This is surreal.

Muslims explaining their "perception" of islamophobia in France - what as written in the UK press?, what about their perception of islamophobia in the UK or other countries.

What are you actually trying to say because you are flip-flopping all over the place, USA, now hijabs, now I'm white (you assume) and of British origin and live in the French countryside - I don't know any Muslims? What are you trying to say? What does living in the French countryside got to do with anything?
By the way men can't go swimming in France in a public swimming pool unless they wear speedos. But they could be White, Black, Green, Pink with blue spots and be Muslims/Christians/Hindus/ Buddhists or atheists, nothing to do with religion.

Who said France is perfect. Trying to pretend that there is not a serious problem with racism and xenophobia in the UK is laughable. There are racists and xenophobes in every country in the world.

The sikh example is to try to explain to you how people can make assumptions about things and be incorrect in doing so, even if their intent is something else.

An islamist attack happens
Billy bloggs attacks a sikh man with a turban be sure he presumes that he is a Muslim
He is not a Muslim
The attack still has islamophobic intent

A woman in France wears the abaya
The abaya is a cultural item, worn by women of north African and middle eastern descent.
For some, it has taken on religious meaning
The French education minister is banning it because he believes it is an actively Muslim garment.

Are you seeing the parallels now?

Don't worry though, it's not just islamophobia. I see as well when France tried to force sikh men to take off their turbans for id photos.

No? Again, I'm talking about my experiences with family friends and in laws? People who live and grew up in France. People who live in the UK. People who came over from Egypt, UAE, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia and the USA, who couldn't care less about French or British media? All of whom have visited or lived in France at some point?

Many Muslims wearing the headscarf in ulir village in the French countryside Paul?

That's great for men in France. Do any religions say that male adherents of their religion are actively banned from swimming in speedos? Because Muslim (or indeed orthodox Jewish)women who wear the hijab can't go swimming in a bikini. So how is that similar?

Who has tried to say there isn't racism and xenophobia in the UK?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Be quiet Peter, Paul knows far more about Sikhs' lived experiences than you do.

If I call it Anglo-Frenchsplaining, is that racist?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I have no idea wtf @Paul the Wolf is arguing. France is a deeply Islamaphobic country.

French-Algerian Footballer Sanctioned for “Allah is great” on his T-shirt

Spoiler: pic of the player

Islamophobia in France: Olympique Marseille player Enzo Sternal who is of Algerian origin has reportedly been excluded from France's Under-16 national squad for 'behavioural reasons' after he celebrated a goal revealing his undershirt, which said 'Allah is Great'

Must be

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If I call it Anglo-Frenchsplaining, is that racist?

Apparently having never lived in France the Spur knows more about France than I do.

To be honest I've never seen a Sikh in France, there are very few of them. But I knew plenty when I lived in the UK.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The sikh example is to try to explain to you how people can make assumptions about things and be incorrect in doing so, even if their intent is something else.

An islamist attack happens
Billy bloggs attacks a sikh man with a turban be sure he presumes that he is a Muslim
He is not a Muslim
The attack still has islamophobic intent

A woman in France wears the abaya
The abaya is a cultural item, worn by women of north African and middle eastern descent.
For some, it has taken on religious meaning
The French education minister is banning it because he believes it is an actively Muslim garment.

Are you seeing the parallels now?

Don't worry though, it's not just islamophobia. I see as well when France tried to force sikh men to take off their turbans for id photos.

No? Again, I'm talking about my experiences with family friends and in laws? People who live and grew up in France. People who live in the UK. People who came over from Egypt, UAE, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia and the USA, who couldn't care less about French or British media? All of whom have visited or lived in France at some point?

Many Muslims wearing the headscarf in ulir village in the French countryside Paul?

That's great for men in France. Do any religions say that male adherents of their religion are actively banned from swimming in speedos? Because Muslim (or indeed orthodox Jewish)women who wear the hijab can't go swimming in a bikini. So how is that similar?

Who has tried to say there isn't racism and xenophobia in the UK?

In France you'd have trouble finding a Sikh, not many about. You may as just as well have said the police arrested the wrong man for burglary through mistaken identity. (in the US). This islamophobia occurred in the USA , must have been a shock for your American friends.
Makes no sense.

You said the posters not friends - if you flip-flop to friends
Have your friends who spent a few days in Paris experienced any islamophobia elsewhere or did it just only occur in France. Oh it did!

Yes if they are Muslims or any other religion they do wear their clothes
You know I've even taken the straw out of my mouth once and ventured down to the end of the lane, I even saw a motor car once, ooh ahh -never been to one of them big cities though.

We even have an asylum centre in the nearby town in a properly maintained building and given proper food and money - not a barge in sight.

Would you like to name a country, any country, where people are restricted as to what they wear and do which is different to the normal behaviour of the said country.
For example could a woman uncover her hair or show her face in any country in the world; If not which countries could they not do that.

Could two gay men walk hand in hand down the road and kiss each other in public in every country in the world; If not, please tell me which countries they could not.

 

[Rams]

I have no idea wtf @Paul the Wolf is arguing. France is a deeply Islamaphobic country.

French-Algerian Footballer Sanctioned for “Allah is great” on his T-shirt

Spoiler: pic of the player

Islamophobia in France: Olympique Marseille player Enzo Sternal who is of Algerian origin has reportedly been excluded from France's Under-16 national squad for 'behavioural reasons' after he celebrated a goal revealing his undershirt, which said 'Allah is Great'

I don’t know who this Allah player is, but to sanction another player for supporting him is a bit over the for Christ sakes.

 

[Spoony]

I don’t know who this Allah player is, but to sanction another player for supporting him is a bit over the for Christ sakes.

You should be sanctioned for that. And that cross gesture that you're always doing and all.

Nazi France.

 

[JPRouve]

I have no idea wtf @Paul the Wolf is arguing. France is a deeply Islamaphobic country.

French-Algerian Footballer Sanctioned for “Allah is great” on his T-shirt

Spoiler: pic of the player

Islamophobia in France: Olympique Marseille player Enzo Sternal who is of Algerian origin has reportedly been excluded from France's Under-16 national squad for 'behavioural reasons' after he celebrated a goal revealing his undershirt, which said 'Allah is Great'

He was in the team for the following three games and it's reported by no one serious, probably because it's based on a tweet from a blogger.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Apparently having never lived in France the Spur knows more about France than I do.

To be honest I've never seen a Sikh in France, there are very few of them. But I knew plenty when I lived in the UK.

I've got family in France.

Their children can't wear turbans or their kara (steel bracelet), leave alone carry a kirpan (knife/sword). In the UK Sikhs can carry their kirpan airside at all airports and do not have to remove their turban and wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle.

We have the five k's that all Sikhs should wear at all times. Our hair uncut, a wooden comb, a type of underwear, a steel bracelet and a sword.

I don't know, but would Sikh children be banned for carrying combs, but the the Christian kids not? Are we allowed to wear underwear???

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I've got family in France.

Their children can't wear turbans or their kara (steel bracelet), leave alone carry a kirpan (knife/sword). In the UK Sikhs can carry their kirpan airside at all airports and do not have to remove their turban and wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle.

We have the five k's that all Sikhs should wear at all times. Our hair uncut, a wooden comb, a type of underwear, a steel bracelet and a sword.

I don't know, but would Sikh children be banned for carrying combs, but the the Christian kids not? Are we allowed to wear underwear???

In school if the items are classed as religious objects they would probably be banned although combs , bracelets and underwear which would not be visible I doubt would be a problem.
Carrying any kind of knife or sword would undoubtedly be not allowed - for anyone anywhere.

On that subject I was shocked the other day with Sunak standing in front of of a line of large knives and machetes together with the police commissioner and saying "we may have to make it illegal for people to carry these." What?! They used to be illegal.

 

[Wibble]

What about atheists? Funny cos my kids are atheists and went to school with muslims, sikhs and jews and didn't spontaneously combust whenever they came across someone from those religions at school wearing their religious clothes. Amazing stuff isn't it.

Agreed, although I found my son was occasionally bullied and discriminated against at school for being an atheist. Which of course we sorted right out.

 

[calodo2003]

Agreed, although I found my son was occasionally bullied and discriminated against at school for being an atheist. Which of course we sorted right out.

Totally off topic question, but how's your boy's water polo career progressing?

 

[Wibble]

You probably have Paul.

You've also found yourself on the wrong part of the Dunning Kruger curve, whereby you seem to portray yourself and genuinely think of yourself as an expert on every single topic you insert yourself in.

However, you're also a white Brit, now living somewhere in the French countryside. Do you have a friendship group who would class themselves as Muslim? Or wear clothing that clearly shows they're Muslim. Do you have in laws who wear a hijab, who have visited you in the UK and who you have gone on holiday with across mainland Europe, including France? Who are all these Muslims you've met across the world recently who've talked to you about their experiences?

Re-read which last sentence? About the clothing which marks people out? I'm talking about the hijab?

I was actually referencing this: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-victims/index.html

Would you class these as islamophobic attacks?

Though potentially the same happened in the UK. There is a world outside of France.

Lots of this are (for me and my viewpoint on such things) made confusing/conflicting in that I hate discrimination and I dislike religion almost equally. So I'd like all religion and everything religious to not be a thing (in a wildly hypothetical alternate universe) but I'd not be for the strict French line either (except possibly on the Sikh knives thing where I assume/hope plastic replicas are allowed to be used anyway).

The wearing of the hijab and similar attire is also conflicting for me, with the dichotomy between religious freedom and the subjugation of women clashing for me in a similar way.

 

[Wibble]

Totally off topic question, but how's your boy's water polo career progressing?

Going well. He made his senior national debut last year and played again in the World Cup early this year. He probably has about a 40/60 chance of making the Paris Olympics, although he isn't bothered either way as he views his pro career as being far more important, given the state of AU water polo at the moment. He is just back in Athens and has been signed by Glyfada in the Greek 1st Division. Not quite as good a team as his previous club, Peristeri, but younger, hungrier, more suited to his style, and most of all he is the senior centre foward. Not to mention Glyfada is a swanky suburb on the water where he has been assigned a brand new apartment, and they also pay for his food (a not inconsiderable cost given his size and exercise levels). He has just spent a month back in California and has been offered a few work opportunities next year, if he decides to end his pro career. I'd guess that he may not be ready to finish, and may do another season or 2 if he and his girlfriend can manage the long distance thing.

 

[tenpoless]

Just rename burkini to kekkini. Means the same thing and it wouldn't be banned then.

 

[Adisa]

Is the Abaya even religious clothing?

 

[Plastic Evra]

Ah I see the French government is focused on the real issues and not some incredibly fluff "problem" to bait bigots. Splendid.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

In school if the items are classed as religious objects they would probably be banned although combs , bracelets and underwear which would not be visible I doubt would be a problem.
Carrying any kind of knife or sword would undoubtedly be not allowed - for anyone anywhere.

On that subject I was shocked the other day with Sunak standing in front of of a line of large knives and machetes together with the police commissioner and saying "we may have to make it illegal for people to carry these." What?! They used to be illegal.

What about people crossing themselves or putting their hands together to pray? Those are obviously religious.

How about yoga. Just because the western world has bastardized it doesn't mean it's not religious.

Dreadlocks for rastafarians banned, but for other people ok?

Are kids not allowed to pray before exams? Do you get detention for saying God or Jesus Christ when you stub your toe?

What happens if a Jain deliberately doesn't step on an insect? Are they radicalizing non Jains?

How far are you keeping religion out of school? It's bullshit. It's arbitrary lines based on people looking weird.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What about people crossing themselves or putting their hands together to pray? Those are obviously religious.

How about yoga. Just because the western world has bastardized it doesn't mean it's not religious.

Dreadlocks for rastafarians banned, but for other people ok?

Are kids not allowed to pray before exams? Do you get detention for saying God or Jesus Christ when you stub your toe?

What happens if a Jain deliberately doesn't step on an insect? Are they radicalizing non Jains?

How far are you keeping religion out of school? It's bullshit. It's arbitrary lines based on people looking weird.

It's religious teaching and symbols that are not allowed. If parents want their children to attend schools that do have religious activities then they can send them to those private schools.
As I said, my grandsons attend a school that is a Catholic school which holds services and has religious instruction.
My grandsons are not catholic nor do they believe in any God of any type. Nor are the fees very high like in the Uk but that would depend on the school itself.

I did not write the rule, the government wrote this in 1905 when most people were much more religious in France at at that time were mainly catholic.

The faux outrage of islamophobia is ridiculous for 67 girls having to change their dress - 0.00055% of all schoolchiildren when islamic countries impose all kinds of restrictions people of other religions or non-religions. But nothing is said.

 

[RedTiger]

I am a Sikh person. I was physically attacked after the Paris attack. By a French person. In the UK. He thought I was Muslim.

I hope you gave him a hiding back while shouting "stupid Belgian"!

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I hope you gave him a hiding back while shouting "stupid Belgian"!

I gave him a hiding and luckily I was wearing my Khanda ring (I was a bit bling back in the day) , so I told him as I was leaving that he should have a lovely bruise on his face to remind him of the difference between Sikh and Muslim symbols

 

[do.ob]

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/ar...ing-death-threats-to-principal_6129682_7.html

Death threats over a piece of clothing?

 

[africanspur]

UN rights agency slams France's decision to bar its 2024 Olympic athletes from wearing headscarf

Vintage France.

Edit, this also led me to this:

French court upholds football federation ban on headscarves Despite the rapporteur's recommendations that the headscarf be allowed, as well as FIFA's permissive stance, the Council of State upheld the French Football Federation's rule preventing players from wearing headscarves.

Same comment as above.

 

[africanspur]

Also, I was reminded of an earlier comment in the thread about how pieces of cloth can exclude children from integrating with others when driving past teenagers leaving a school in West London. Saw a south Asian origin Sikh boy wearing a turban walking with a caucasian boy, as well as a girl wearing a hijab walking with a girl not wearing one.

They seemed to find it OK thankfully. Imagine quite a few would have baulked at the sight though.