Most dribbles on the pitch, team had the most of the ball, 2nd most passes on the pitch, 2 key passes, won the ball the most out of midfielders, best player in midfield - add them up. It was pretty obvious watching the game and seeing him easily go past our midfield whenever he wanted. If he had been playing for us we'd have thrashed Chelsea, but his team wasnt as clinical as we were
Fred’s value
- Thread starter ThinkTank@Cafe
- Start date
Yes. Look at his shot map. He's an utter liability in the final third.
He’s an agent of chaos
If he keeps playing the way he did yesterday, 50 mill is a bargain. There aren't many players of that ilk around these days.
Tbf ole dropped him last season and through injuries had to play him do it wasnt by design he got his run of games
If he could add goalscoring to his game he would be one of the best midfielders in europe. When we paid 50 mill and the way we started I thought what another waste of money. Let's hope hes able to avoid injury now.
Give it a rest will you with your bull sh1t 'dribbled past stat' does it not occur to you that it might be due to him fighting for every single ball and putting himself on the line 100% of the time.
You will struggle to find a single other poster in here who shares your view that he was outplayed by kovacic last night.
You told another poster to watch the game next time, I think you should try that yourself next time rather than spending your time compiling shit stats.
Hes also being riped apart on Chelsea forums ive been on this morning for having no physical attributes, slow across the pitch and a liability in shielding the back 4.
This is literally the only post ive seen praising hin and it smacks of agenda posting.
Chelsea are slow through midfield, they dont provide enough going forward and leave mountains of space behind them when losing the ball.
This is who you are putting Fred up against?
Seems to be getting better and better, looks to be a top player after this season. He’s settled into the league and his quality is there for all to see, Fred and Bruno suddenly looks very promising.
Every good team in the world now has a midfielder like him now. Someone that has incredible stamina, a decent ability on the ball and above average passing. An engine for the rest of the machine to tick around.
He's in a 3 man midfield with Jorginho and Kante, sitting in front of the defense is the last thing he should be doing. Thats why he made 2 key passes and 4 dribbles through our midfield. He still won the ball most for them but its not directly in front of the defense. Having said that he did drop in as a CB to cover a wandering defense and clear the ball out at one point which is great defensive responsibility. Fred on the other hand covered down the right hand side and got beaten.
If we're going to talk agendas, the United fan posting about Fred is obviously the one with an agenda. The United fan posting about the opposition's player, giving them credit is not.
Whatever Kante's value is + £20m
Judging a holding midfielder on his final third contribution. Sounds about right.
Allthough I think Kovacic had a good game yesterday, it's quite difficult to compare him to Fred, as they (usually) play different roles.
Fred was a lot better than Kovacic at the things Fred should be good at. His aggression, ball winning, tackling and "upping the tempo" was second to none on the pitch. Didn't Fred harass Kovacic at the end of the game, so that he sloppily lost posession and gave away the free kick that hit the post?
Kovacic was better at dribbling and such. Comparing Kovacic and Bruno is more right, I think. And Bruno was also better than Kovacic yesterday.
Fred was a lot better than Kovacic at the things Fred should be good at. His aggression, ball winning, tackling and "upping the tempo" was second to none on the pitch. Didn't Fred harass Kovacic at the end of the game, so that he sloppily lost posession and gave away the free kick that hit the post?
Kovacic was better at dribbling and such. Comparing Kovacic and Bruno is more right, I think. And Bruno was also better than Kovacic yesterday.
Well one man's dropping is another man's resting I suppose. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that solskjaer felt he would benefit from some time out of the side especially if he could see that he was still struggling to adjust to things given everything he had to deal with. Taking players out at the right time was something SAF was brilliant at but again I doubt many will give Ole the benefit of the doubt as to his methods. The truth as always is probably somewhere in between but it's curious to note Ole often picked him in Europe where he perhaps felt Fred was more used to the rhythm.
There's no doubt that the injury crisis has played a big part though, the only good thing to come out of it is that we've got to see the character of players like Fred come to the fore along with the likes of Williams and Greenwood too who have stepped up way ahead of their curve really.
Someone please tell me what Kovacic did in the second half? Was he even on the pitch!?
Couple flashy dribbles and cute passes in the first 45, now all of a sudden he was dominating the midfield ?Absolutely. I'm not asking for 10 goals and assists, but I am expecting decent decision making. Fred's tendency is to panic and relieve the pressure on the opposition defence by launching the ball out for a goal kick, by taking a shot that is a 2-percenter from someone with at least average shooting ability. Instead of looking for a creative pass or just keeping possession, Fred shoots with no hope of scoring.
Fred's had 35 shots in the league and look from where. His shotmap is below (from The Athletic a few weeks ago). 35 shots for 1.27xG (are the latest figures from Whoscored and Understat). That's just utter stupidity and age is no excuse. He's 26 years old and still doesn't understand the basics of attacking football. Only Hojbjerg has had more without scoring.
Frankly asking whether you'd sell Fred for £50m is a mute point. No club with any sort of analytics department would ever target his signing. There's not going to be anyone ever offering that money for him.
So City were not interested then?Absolutely. I'm not asking for 10 goals and assists, but I am expecting decent decision making. Fred's tendency is to panic and relieve the pressure on the opposition defence by launching the ball out for a goal kick, by taking a shot that is a 2-percenter from someone with at least average shooting ability. Instead of looking for a creative pass or just keeping possession, Fred shoots with no hope of scoring.
Fred's had 35 shots in the league and look from where. His shotmap is below (from The Athletic a few weeks ago). 35 shots for 1.27xG (are the latest figures from Whoscored and Understat). That's just utter stupidity and age is no excuse. He's 26 years old and still doesn't understand the basics of attacking football. Only Hojbjerg has had more without scoring.
Frankly asking whether you'd sell Fred for £50m is a mute point. No club with any sort of analytics department would ever target his signing. There's not going to be anyone ever offering that money for him.
Not for that money, no, and he's still done little to suggest he's actually worth what we paid.
Only if Fred had talent and intelligence to compliment his hard work....
May be he will flourish to his full potential once he forms good partnership with bruno...who knows...
May be he will flourish to his full potential once he forms good partnership with bruno...who knows...
I find the things you’re criticizing Fred with as absurd. I mean if you were saying that about last season’s Fred , I’d be inclined to agree with you but not this current version of him.
His shooting is poor which is admittedly infuriating at times but he’s not in the team to score goals . He’s a defensive midfielder. How many goal scoring defensive midfielders are there in the league? How many of these defensive midfielders have good shooting abilities?
The fact that he’s able to take those amount of shots is testament to his mobility and the criticism should be directed towards the coaching staff I.e they should be telling him to pass it or be working with him to improve on his shooting.
Fred who is by no means perfect has been one of the best midfielders in the league this season and if you can’t give him credit for that then I’m sorry you’re agenda driven.
He’s become ridiculously overrated. He was so shit before that being decent makes people think he’s one of the best midfielders in the world. He’s nowhere close.
Effective when pressing in congested areas given his mobility and stamina. I would not class him as an average EPL midfielder at passing. Nor as an asset when the team is in possession or when he is on the ball.
Since we, under the current management, do not want the ball and tries to win the ball in advantageous positions, he is an asset. The question is if this low possession and counter-attacking approach is going to get us anywhere. I seriously doubt it, but as long as we play the way we do, Fred's strengths as a player are very valuable for the team.
Our whole midfield was poor. I except more from United players than just run around and make tackles. Matic is way too slow and Fred doesn't have the ability too consistently play Michael carrick balls to the numer 10 and forwards. That is my issue with the 3-5-2 or 4-2-3-1 formations. It puts too much onus on the number "8" in this case Fred to do that. There were so many missed opportunities yesterday to play thru Chelsea's midfield. If we persist on these 2 formations we really need a deep lying Playmaker in the summer.
I do think that a midfield 3 of Pogba, Fred and Bruno would work tremendously.
I do think that a midfield 3 of Pogba, Fred and Bruno would work tremendously.
He's definitely worth the £50m now, without a shadow of a doubt.
He's playing as well as any other CM in the league at the moment, he's just missing a couple of goals and i'm betting this will come.
He's playing as well as any other CM in the league at the moment, he's just missing a couple of goals and i'm betting this will come.
Bar us and City I guess. Your entire point seems to be he's taken bad shots which waste possession. This is a valid criticism but then you go way over the top with this last point while ignoring the sheer volume of recoveries of possession he makes. Also think he's cut out some of his wild shots of late.
He's not an average PL CM at passing? This is such extreme hyperbole it renders itself to be utter nonsense. Fred would walk into most every midfield in the league.
I'm still unsure about Fred.
He's started doing the basics well, which is always great. Simple passes, getting back to defend, making space etc. My only issue with that is, the bar has been set so high by other clubs in recent years, that doing the basics isn't enough anymore.
Other teams have squad players like Fred who can also assist and score.
He's started doing the basics well, which is always great. Simple passes, getting back to defend, making space etc. My only issue with that is, the bar has been set so high by other clubs in recent years, that doing the basics isn't enough anymore.
Other teams have squad players like Fred who can also assist and score.
hes still pretty poor going forward (wasteful as hell with his stupid long shot attempts), but hes really improved as a ball-winning midfielder, like having our own brazilian kante. winning the ball back and recycling possession is his strength, he definitely has it in him to drive the ball forward a bit as well.
I am curious. Who are those players?
Guys, how many times do I have to explain this? It is not his finishing or ability at shooting from range that I am questioning. It is his decision making, which is a far more important and relevant attribute. He is consistently electing to shoot from 30+ yards with numerous bodies in front of him, when that is the worst possible decision he could make with the ball. Every time Fred takes a 0-2% shot, he’s ending our attacks and allowing the opposition to have the ball back and move back up the field. When Fred has the ball 30 yards from goal, him turning around 180 degrees and passing all the way back to De Gea would be a more profitable move towards scoring a goal in a lot of instances.
Fred would be a far improved player if he just decided to never shoot again. At the moment his threshold for deciding when to take a shot is so low that he is better off not ever considering it. As it stands, he is currently a liability when ever we are on top in a game and are pushing for a goal. Phi Jones would be a far greater asset i. those situations because at least Jones is cognisant of his weaknesses as a footballer.
I agree. I also said what a good player he has turned out. I would have him practicing his shooting from different areas just outside the box. If he can add that to his game he would be the complete midfielder
Fred is one of the best in the league at what he does....in my view at least. He plays well consistently which is not something you can say for all of our squad. Hes got heart, workrate, stamina, never gives up, will to win etc. Who else would you see winning the ball back so high up the pitch in the closing minutes when he put Ighalo through on goal despite bursting his gut for the full 90 mins before that. These are qualities that are vital in any team that aspires to be successful.
Kante is not exactly Beckham when it comes to creativity, goals etc but it's not something he seems to get criticised for.
If he could improve his decision making which at times can be poor, he would be awsemoe.
Kante is not exactly Beckham when it comes to creativity, goals etc but it's not something he seems to get criticised for.
If he could improve his decision making which at times can be poor, he would be awsemoe.
He's essentially stepped up to replace Herrera's energy and tenacity in midfield. I'm not sure he'll ever justify his fee as it doesn't look like he has enough to his game but he'll still be a very useful player.
Average starting midfielder(can't really evaluate those that does not play). And while his passing completing percentage is good, the same could be stated for a number of centrebacks that can barely hit a barn door from 10 feet.
40 midfielders with more than 1500 minutes this season.
Better: Ward Prose, Norwood, McArthur, Hojbjerg, Moutinho, Grealish, Maddison, Cork, Wijnaldum, Propper, Neves, Tielemans, Fleck, KDB, Milivojevic, Henderson, Capoue, Jorginho, Fernandinho, Buendia, Noble, Sigurdson, Alli, Matic, McGinn, Gross.
Similar or worse, or at least not better by a large margin: Rice, Doucoure, Dendonker, Westwood, Billing, Hayden, Ndidi, Lerma, Xhaka, Hendrick, Rodrigo, Guendouzi, Kouyate, Sissoko.
Compiling a list that includes attacking mids (Maddison, Grealish, Alli in a comparison to Fred is just odd. I'd also disagree with plenty of the players included in this list like Moutinho, Propper, Cork, Hojbjerg, Capoue, Jorginho, Fernandinho (this season specifically), Noble, Matic, Gross, McArthur. I'd say Fred has been on par with Wijnaldum, Henderson, and Neves.
Ok, I'll bite. Name us some of these squad players (holding midfielders who aren't first team regulars) who are better than Fred.
I think he still doesn't have enough impact at the business end of the pitch to justify a massive transfer fee.
He would probably be at the high end of what clubs would pay for a DM though. What's the going rate for a good DM these days? £30-40 million? How much did Kante go for?
He would probably be at the high end of what clubs would pay for a DM though. What's the going rate for a good DM these days? £30-40 million? How much did Kante go for?
Kante had a release clause. City paid Rodri's £62.8m release clause just last summer and this was lauded as great business.
I think question is, how much are we willing to pay for him now, if he is from another club?
I think around 40-50m would be fair price I wouldn't mind spending.
I think around 40-50m would be fair price I wouldn't mind spending.
He gives everything for his team and was taking no shit from the chavs last night, especially when rudiger and azpatwat were going for martial. He's doing the grubby stuff we've missed since Ander left. Can play a bit too, love it.