Not in the first XI or squad. We've never had players in attacking roles whose only real strength was winning the ball back. Not when we've been successful anyway.In the squad*
The biggest teams can afford utility members in their larger squads because they have the biggest budgets.
Football has changed. I dunno what to tell you.Not in the first XI or squad. We've never had players in attacking roles whose only real strength was winning the ball back. Not when we've been successful anyway.
You could put AWB in the 10 spot and tell him to win the ball. He'd probably be better than Fred at it as well. Along with a few others.
Not that much. If it has all the other top clubs should have No.10's whose only strength is winning the ball back.Football has changed. I dunno what to tell you.
Mason Mount?Not that much. If it has all the other top clubs should have No.10's whose only strength is winning the ball back.
I don't see them.
I'd argue he's more than just a ball winner but even so if football has changed that much, you should be able to reel off the names. Who are the ball winning No.10's at the teams who win the trophies?Mason Mount?
The whole multiple MOTM isn't doing it for you, no?Thankfully I'm at peace knowing most see fred for how limited he is an that he is actually no where near the standard required. I guess he still has his followers, which to me is mental but hey, I suppose if Mr blobby played so many games the easily pleased would pick out his qualities. Oh he runs all day or is all effort, that should be baseline for any footballer making a living let alone a united midfielder. Anyone thinks he's decent at shooting, passing or has any spatial awareness is absolutely crazy. Even if he wins a few challenges ( and for 50/50s he never goes in full blooded) and charges down possession the gaps he leaves is criminal. I'll not get into his lack of progressive play through midfield. Abysmal footballer
Could not have said it better myself. He’s a perfect and valuable squad player…which will likely be his role as we continue to retool. No reason at all to jettison him at this point…Again, I'll say it, he's the most misunderstood player going.
He's not a 6 or an 8, he's a defensive 10, perfect for winning the ball high up the pitch, turning over the ball, intercepting and being a general nuisance. Like a 2023 Park but with less attacking ability.
He's role is unique, niche and nuanced. He's not a first XI player, he's a utility player for certain situations, scenarios and opponents.
When you judge him through this lens, he's a good player.
Fred can typically win and protect the ball when he has 70-30 advantage over his opponent. His problem was, at least for previous season, was that when it comes to 50-50 equal opportunity challenge, he lost almost every time. I still had that image of him losing to leicester city player, resulting in a late equaliser. The other one was Rafael lost to Vardy even on a 60-40 advantage, and cost us a penalty, that was some time ago of course.Why on earth can people in this thread only define "ball winning" as 50/50?!
He can win the ball off people.
I agree with you. The enigma that is Fred is so confusing because he is individually a talented footballer, but when he plays in a team that requires positional awareness, tactical discipline (i.e. tracking runners), and his role is more proscribed, he is abjectly poor. If Fred has the freedom of the park, he can run around and play. If we are chasing the game, he is the last player I'd turn to. That's why Butt and Herrera were much better players for United but Fred individually has more tricks 'n' flicks or whatever.I like Fred but butt was easily on a higher level than what Fred is on, I can't imagine Fred putting on a similar display of to what butt did in the 99 cl final for example.
Great description of him, if we are trying to hold on in a game he can be very effective at disrupting the opponent but if we want to control the ball and make opportunities he can be a liability. He does hit occasional great passes but he has way too many loose passes in situations where a competent midfielder would just find a teammate. That really hurts when you want to build pressure.I agree with you. The enigma that is Fred is so confusing because he is individually a talented footballer, but when he plays in a team that requires positional awareness, tactical discipline (i.e. tracking runners), and his role is more proscribed, he is abjectly poor. If Fred has the freedom of the park, he can run around and play. If we are chasing the game, he is the last player I'd turn to. That's why Butt and Herrera were much better players for United but Fred individually has more tricks 'n' flicks or whatever.
He was fouled ffsFred can typically win and protect the ball when he has 70-30 advantage over his opponent. His problem was, at least for previous season, was that when it comes to 50-50 equal opportunity challenge, he lost almost every time. I still had that image of him losing to leicester city player, resulting in a late equaliser. The other one was Rafael lost to Vardy even on a 60-40 advantage, and cost us a penalty, that was some time ago of course.
No it definitely isn't. For me he can't be relied upon. I totally agree he has been better this latter while, thank God, but I don't think he deserved motm against Leeds there. Yes he did his usual running effort but against Leeds I'd expect more for our midfield. He will either be a 2 or 7 against barca which just is not reliable, Fred cannot be relied upon.The whole multiple MOTM isn't doing it for you, no?
Mr Blobby? Ffs
A club doesn't spend $47m for a squad player. The fact that he is a squad player tells you the purchase was a mistake and just another one that our club has made in the past decade. What's frustrating is that this one was avoidable. Anyone with a good eye for talent should have recognized Fred's very average first touch. That in itself always meant he was going to be an average midfielder in the PL.Could not have said it better myself. He’s a perfect and valuable squad player…which will likely be his role as we continue to retool. No reason at all to jettison him at this point…
A perfect squad player doesn’t shit the bed the way Fred did against Leeds last week. And that is one of numerous times.Could not have said it better myself. He’s a perfect and valuable squad player…which will likely be his role as we continue to retool. No reason at all to jettison him at this point…
A perfect squad player is happy to sit on the bench and come back in and win man of the match and that is one of numerous times.A perfect squad player doesn’t shit the bed the way Fred did against Leeds last week. And that is one of numerous times.
Fred may have a v good game this evening, or the next leg, or whatever really, and I say that because we have all seen this before. A centre midfielder having the odd good game shouldn't be received with such satisfaction amongst us fans... he was valued at nearly £50m years ago, and what have we seen, consistently for that outlay?Never understand why he generates so much discussion especially now given McFred is no longer a thing. Its even more clear his role and Leeds at home aside, hes proven to be extremely effective if used in the right way (isnt that the same for most footballers)?
Im saying it now, he'll be fine tonight as ironically with Fred, the bigger the game generally, the better his performance. Especially against the teams that come to play.....
Like who? It's nonsense. 50 million for a player who can play in big games was a bargain then too. Fred is post Neymar if I'm not wrong.in answer to the OP, no it wasn't well spent. For that time of money a player should be coming in and being a consistent performer. That is his biggest weakness, he can look very good in one game than terrible the next, in fact over 90 mins he can go from the sublime to the ridiculous. If he had come through the youth system, you'd be okay with his role as a squad player, but paying nearly 50 mill 5 years ago, we have to expect better.
If people look at the cost of players 5 years ago, there was some big figures for average players. For the majority of Freds time here, he's been played out of position along with another player played out of position. Neither are DM's and along side Bruno playing as a false 9, left them both exposed.in answer to the OP, no it wasn't well spent. For that time of money a player should be coming in and being a consistent performer. That is his biggest weakness, he can look very good in one game than terrible the next, in fact over 90 mins he can go from the sublime to the ridiculous. If he had come through the youth system, you'd be okay with his role as a squad player, but paying nearly 50 mill 5 years ago, we have to expect better.
The reason to move him on is that you can get a squad player who runs around a lot and has a good first touch.Could not have said it better myself. He’s a perfect and valuable squad player…which will likely be his role as we continue to retool. No reason at all to jettison him at this point…
Keep the same energy for most of the other players too. Many on here would have said the same for Shaw, Rashford et al.Fred may have a v good game this evening, or the next leg, or whatever really, and I say that because we have all seen this before. A centre midfielder having the odd good game shouldn't be received with such satisfaction amongst us fans... he was valued at nearly £50m years ago, and what have we seen, consistently for that outlay?
Fred owes Man Utd two seasons of good performances. At least. These 'one game great games..' is no good.
I watched Citeh' last night and had to reluctantly admire KDB, Silva, and Gundogan... their play, and more importantly, their consistency is in a completly different league to good old Fred.
Let's get real here... Fred has to move on in the summer. Has to. Had plenty of opportunities to prove himself.
Have a look at what the cost of players were 5 years ago, you think Liverpool playing 65m Kieta or Chelsea paying 80m for a goalkeeper was good value for money?Genuinely frightens me that we have to trust Fred's touch and distribution at Camp Nou tonight.
Fred has had some really good games for United. I am not going to pretend that he hasn't. However, the basics of his game are so inconsistent. For £47 million you have to be able to score, at least, 6/10 every game. Fred doesn't. One week he'll be 8/10, the next 2/10. Worse, the bad or average performances far outnumber the outstanding ones.
Just consider the fact that Alvarez and Enzo Fernandez left River Plate last season for £13m and £18m. For what we spent on Fred, you could have bought both of them last summer and had change. Looking at it like that, you cannot consider what we paid for Fred money well spent.
Money well spent is what Brighton paid for Caicedo. Or, if you want an example closer to home, what we paid for Garnacho. Poaching Alejandro from Atleti for pittance is exceptional value. Its like going into a thrift shop and getting an antique for a few quid, taking it to Christies and becoming a millionaire. That is value for money. Not paying £47 million for Fred.
You've taken two very out there examples. The same summer we signed Fred:Have a look at what the cost of players were 5 years ago, you think Liverpool playing 65m Kieta or Chelsea paying 80m for a goalkeeper was good value for money?
Whatever we thought about Fred post ETH, hes not alone. Most would have sold Shaw, AWB or even Rashford based on previous form. Although hes been mostly injured, who would have thought Tony would look better in a utd shirt?
If we keep the same energy for Fred as we do with others since ETH, hes been used in the right way and proven to be a valuable squad member. Leeds at home, he was shocking but thats not generally been a true reflection of his season. Hes arguably been a couple of games in the running for MOTM.
This is bang on and a fair take I don't think anyone can argue withFred may have a v good game this evening, or the next leg, or whatever really, and I say that because we have all seen this before. A centre midfielder having the odd good game shouldn't be received with such satisfaction amongst us fans... he was valued at nearly £50m years ago, and what have we seen, consistently for that outlay?
Fred owes Man Utd two seasons of good performances. At least. These 'one game great games..' is no good.
I watched Citeh' last night and had to reluctantly admire KDB, Silva, and Gundogan... their play, and more importantly, their consistency is in a completly different league to good old Fred.
Let's get real here... Fred has to move on in the summer. Has to. Had plenty of opportunities to prove himself.
Shrondingers Fred.We should keep him for the sheer unpredictability he brings. Will he have an amazing game and press the life out of the opposition or will he play like he's drunk?
Really is the spiritual successor to Anderson and we should always have someone this chaotic at the club imo.
but it’s a sunk cost at this point. Yes, agreed, that was too much for what he has become. But at this point he’s bird in the hand. I think he’s often quite good as a sub, so why gamble on potentially slightly “better” squad player buy.A club doesn't spend $47m for a squad player. The fact that he is a squad player tells you the purchase was a mistake and just another one that our club has made in the past decade. What's frustrating is that this one was avoidable. Anyone with a good eye for talent should have recognized Fred's very average first touch. That in itself always meant he was going to be an average midfielder in the PL.
I could equally go one but that was purely an example that its never been a science and more often a lottery. Hindsight is an exact science and like said, with the benefit of it, we could reflect on many decisions. For me, I'd sooner look forward than keep looking backward.....You've taken two very out there examples. The same summer we signed Fred:
I could go on.
- The Scousers also signed Fabinho for less.
- Chelsea signed Jorginho for less.
- Brighton signed Bissoma and Alexis MacAllister for less (even if you add together their price tags).
- Fulham signed Anguissa for less.
Fred at £47m was not good value at the time. Nobody even pretended it was. Lots of people questioned the signing back in 2018, for very good reasons. Even Andy Mitten spoke up and said he'd spoken to people who questioned whether Fred would be good enough for United. Especially given the money we'd thrown at it.
With hindsight, given how the transfer worked out, it looks even less value in 2023 than it did in 2018.
I like the guy. He's a trier but he is not, nor has he ever looked like being, someone we should have spent £47 million on.
47 million for a player who isn't consistent isn't a bargain. How can you plan a team when you don't know which version will show up, his last 3 games, poor v Leeds, good v Leeds, horrific first half v Barca. In regards to who has been better than him, hate to burst your bubble, but we've been pretty crap for a few years now. The issue is, we are accpeting medicority but still paying top coin for it, that is a big reason why we have been so poor. If you look at players who signed in PL in and around the same time as Fred for lesser money than we paid, the likes of Tielemans, Kovacic, Jorginho, Fabinho, even 2 seasons prior Kante signed for less, all those players were better value I'd argue, some of them are older so the longevity isn't as much but what they give was of a higher calibre. We need to move away from this notion "he puts in a shift", same thing was said about Fellaini. Right now he's a squad player, he plays when we have injuries or rotate. I expect a wee bit more from a 47 million pound player, but maybe that's just me.Like who? It's nonsense. 50 million for a player who can play in big games was a bargain then too. Fred is post Neymar if I'm not wrong.
Also, transfer Fees involve other things like age as well. 5 years of having a dynamic United level midfielder it's a pretty good buy. He has his weaknesses but then in the past 5 years, pre Casemiro who can you name as a consistent midfielder who played to the level demanded here? I count Bruno as more of an attacker.
