Fred - £47m well spent

[Footyislife]

Fred & Scott together in the midfield looks far better than Matic/Pogba because they actually are mobile and can win the ball back giving us counter opportunities. However, the downside with both is they struggle in possession to make good passes (especially Scott).

Fred has a terrible first touch when he's running on to the ball, almost guaranteed to lose the ball 50% of the time. And then he also doesn't have the composure to score easy shots from distance. Fix those two things, and he's a top-class CM. Probably best to replace Pogba/Matic with mobile CMs who can also pass (AKA Herrera's).

 

[Redlyn]

47m for Fred is value. He has been vital to our winning runs. It won't be easy to replace him with a better/cheaper defensive midfield player. Uncountable number of times he has set up counters or pre assists with his interceptions and quick release. He may be lacking in some aspects on the ball and there is certainly room for improvement but I am happy enough with his current output. He really is a crucial player for us currently.

 

[Champagne Football]

What about Keita at £60+m

Indeed. And then you factor in that Jose was putting pressure on the board to do whatever it took to beat Man City to the signing of Fred, and Shaktar must have been smiling like Cheshire cat knowing this means an extra 20 million added onto the original price.

 

[keithsingleton]

You wouldn’t mind him going? He’s a class midfielder. He provides energy and defensive nous to a level that no one else in our midfield can, and has a technical ability that only Pogba can trump in that CM area. He is indispensable and even for next season, I believe his place in our XI is more than safe. It’ll be McTominay who has to vacate that area should reinforcements come in.

Opinions opinions. No for me I'd have McTominay over Fred. I think he has more attributes than Fred, espically when going forward. His ability to break the lines for Bruno is plain to see. I also think he makes less mistakes too. Taking into account his physical ability when owning that moaning mard arse Neymar the other week I see more improvement in him as well.

Just my opinion though.

 

[RashyForPM]

Opinions opinions. No for me I'd have McTominay over Fred. I think he has more attributes than Fred, espically when going forward. His ability to break the lines for Bruno is plain to see. I also think he makes less mistakes too. Taking into account his physical ability when owning that moaning mard arse Neymar the other week I see more improvement in him as well.

Just my opinion though.

Yeah there’s definitely a good debate to be had between those two. Just feel that Fred consistently operates at a higher level than Scott.

 

[Havak]

Very happy with Fred now. It took a while for him to settle and you could say Ole has improved him and used his attributes better than José. I feel like he wasn't even a player José really wanted, but if he did it was obviously a longer-term investment and to be used primarily for a pressing game in European matches. He's established himself as one of the first names on the team sheet for my money. I'd say the only guaranteed starters ahead of him are Bruno, Maguire & Rashford. He's in that group with Wan-Bissaka, de Gea, and for the most-part, Martial, Lindelof & Shaw, but almost all of these players have a player who is challenging them more than what Fred is being challenged by Matic for example.

 

[Green_Red]

Is he getting game time with Brazil? If not he can't be far away from the first team.

I wonder if adding a native Portuguese speaker in Bruno has helped Fred a bit too.

 

[TheNewEra]

He's part of our core honestly, happy with him, the midfield is very nearly complete now.

The days of Cleverley are gone.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Yeah, he's a proving to be a great signing. Personally think he is our best center midfielder and 1 of the best in the league.

 

[Maticmaker]

Is he getting game time with Brazil? If not he can't be far away from the first team.

I wonder if adding a native Portuguese speaker in Bruno has helped Fred a bit too.

Yes, that could be true. I wonder what the Portuguese is for "you are only supposed to pass the ball to those with the same shirt on as you".. something must be getting lost in the translation!

just joking, yes having someone to converse directly with will help

 

[gazbradley]

Pleased with his performances for past 12/18 months but only be worth the price tag when he learns to at least work the keeper with his shots from the edge of the box

 

[11101]

His poor touch and passing is also vastly overstated. He loses the ball so much because he is the player showing for the ball the most and making the most touches. His stats for passing and possession loss are similar to Jordan Henderson, who despite limited ability has done a great job for Liverpool.

 

[lex talionis]

Fred is a great signing but he’s still a squad player for us. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it’s important to note that we’re now spending 40m+ on squad players. This is the world we live in to compete at the top level. 47m very well spent on Fred.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Fred is one of my favourite players at the club. Consistent performer, insane energy levels. We seem to get results when he starts.

 

[bucky]

Seriously? Some people just can't be satisfied...
What midfielder could we ever buy for less than 50 million pounds, who is better than Fred? Nobody.

We could have had Rodrigo and Fabian Ruiz that summer for the amount that Fred cost. He's improved, but that would have definitely been the better deal.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Fred & Scott together in the midfield looks far better than Matic/Pogba because they actually are mobile and can win the ball back giving us counter opportunities. However, the downside with both is they struggle in possession to make good passes (especially Scott).

Fred has a terrible first touch when he's running on to the ball, almost guaranteed to lose the ball 50% of the time. And then he also doesn't have the composure to score easy shots from distance. Fix those two things, and he's a top-class CM. Probably best to replace Pogba/Matic with mobile CMs who can also pass (AKA Herrera's).

Scott is a ball carrier. He’s not a naturally direct and inventive forward passer.

Fred is never going to be a goal scoring central midfielder.

Too many of our fans ask players to be things that they’re not, then judge them harshly for not succeeding.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

We could have had Rodrigo and Fabian Ruiz that summer for the amount that Fred cost. He's improved, but that would have definitely been the better deal.

No. They would have cost us an additional 20% or more.

 

[bucky]

No. They would have cost us an additional 20% or more.

Even if that were true, it would still have been a better deal than Fred. Both cost significantly less, despite being better.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Great at winning the ball back for us then recycling possession for the opposition.

We could have had Rodrigo and Fabian Ruiz that summer for the amount that Fred cost. He's improved, but that would have definitely been the better deal.

There’s absolutely no proof they’d have cost “20% more”, no point arguing with a fantasist. As you say, better options were/are available.

The love in with Fred is like hearing Arsenal fans wax lyrical about Ghendouzi for 2 years.

Clearly not a bad player but has been present for some of our worst performances yet all we hear about is PSG.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Clearly not a bad player but has been present for some of our worst performances yet all we hear about is PSG.

It's weird that so many people use words like "indispensable" to describe Fred when he's now entering his third season as a United player and the team has demonstrably done better without him starting in the first two. This year, sure, he's probably been the pick of the central midfielders so far. Hope to see him keep it up.

For 47 million, you'd expect better than a shite first season, an okay second, and a reasonably good (still not exactly world class, a box to box player at this price should be less useless going forward for starters) third.

 

[macheda14]

Great at winning the ball back for us then recycling possession for the opposition.


There’s absolutely no proof they’d have cost “20% more”, no point arguing with a fantasist. As you say, better options were/are available.

The love in with Fred is like hearing Arsenal fans wax lyrical about Ghendouzi for 2 years.

Clearly not a bad player but has been present for some of our worst performances yet all we hear about is PSG.

He's been a pretty central player for us this season and we're second on goal difference. As well as being present for some of our worst performances he has been present for some of our best.

 

[R0nald0]

I think this position is now the one that needs fixing most out of the whole XI. A very very good defensive midfielder will get the most out of Pogba or Mctominay as the other central midfielder.

I like Fred's enthusiasm but i'm constantly nervous when he has the ball in defensive areas

 

[Red & White]

Big fan of his and glad to see he’s secured in the team now. You need a player like him in the team if you’re gonna win trophies, I feel. Someone who will do the dirty work and regain possession for the team on a regular basis. His work rate could never be questioned, either.

 

[Bwuk]

Fred gives us a boost in midfield energy and getting about the pitch, but he still gives away (for me) more balls in dangerous positions from poor passing than any other player. I would say he is in the Ju-Sung Park category, but currently without Parks goal contribution. Saw a much better player, McGinn, in his position last night. Fred has developed some sort of understanding with McTominay and as a pair they can be effective, but that pairing takes away other possibilities in midfield, which Ole has to balance and seems to be doing better at just recently.

Yeah it won’t be popular on here but McGinn is better than Fred or McTominay imo. Everyone talks about Grealish but McGinn is just as important.

 

[Cassidy]

Yeah it won’t be popular on here but McGinn is better than Fred or McTominay imo. Everyone talks about Grealish but McGinn is just as important.

I think it would be because he clearly is miles better

 

[MadDogg]

It's weird that so many people use words like "indispensable" to describe Fred when he's now entering his third season as a United player and the team has demonstrably done better without him starting in the first two. This year, sure, he's probably been the pick of the central midfielders so far. Hope to see him keep it up.

He was arguably our player of the season until he was harshly dropped after lockdown last season. We certainly weren't 'demonstrably better' without him.

He was obviously terrible in his first season, but he's been good for 18 months now.

 

[RashyForPM]

Yeah it won’t be popular on here but McGinn is better than Fred or McTominay imo. Everyone talks about Grealish but McGinn is just as important.

McGinn is brilliant, and is slightly better than Fred because he has all of Fred’s attributes, and can shoot as well, unlike Fred. Still though, I don’t think there’s any point upgrading on Fred for someone like McGinn for £60m when it would only be a minuscule upgrade and we have more pressing concerns (RW, Grealish to replace Pogba).

 

[MalcolmTucker]

McGinn is brilliant, and is slightly better than Fred because he has all of Fred’s attributes, and can shoot as well, unlike Fred. Still though, I don’t think there’s any point upgrading on Fred for someone like McGinn for £60m when it would only be a minuscule upgrade and we have more pressing concerns (RW, Grealish to replace Pogba).

As great as Grealish is, where exactly is he going to play? He's a number 10 and our best player plays there, we also bought Donny for £45m who plays the same position so we have plenty of cover. Grealish is also decent on the left but Rashford plays there plus we have Martial for cover. I don't see us spending £60m+ on a player that doesn't get in our first team and I don't think he's going to move to a club where he isn't first choice.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

We have lots of opposing fans on the forum, I wonder what they think of Fred?

it’s likely they can give a fair appraisal of him.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

He was arguably our player of the season until he was harshly dropped after lockdown last season. We certainly weren't 'demonstrably better' without him.

I said demonstrably better because it's easily demonstrable. United scored more goals, conceded fewer goals and picked up more points per game without Fred on the pitch than with him last season.

Saying he was arguably player of the season before lockdown doesn't dispute my point, either. United were awful before lockdown and the best-performing team in the league after lockdown, when Fred couldn't get a look in (worth noting that this happened after he started the first game after the resumption and his replacement came on and immediately improved things).

He's not an awful player, and he's gotten better every season he's been here. But in a squad that's had the same gaping holes in key positions for at least three years now, it's clearly worth questioning if the sizeable fee spent to get him could have been better deployed.

 

[Brad2020]

As in if we had a competent board and sporting director who could have probably brought in someone better, than no, but....

as a bench player for DFM had Woodward not signed a 32 year old Matic to a three year deal, than yes.

Fred is a good player, but he doesn't have a good first touch on the ball to be a great starting DMF, and as a result often has reckless engagements trying to retrieve the ball.

I think he's good for now, but ultimately if Solskjaer want two attacking midfielders up front in a 4-3-3 formation, United will ultimately have to spend on a quality CDM.

 

[MadDogg]

I said demonstrably better because it's easily demonstrable. United scored more goals, conceded fewer goals and picked up more points per game without Fred on the pitch than with him last season.

That's hardly an even situation since our fortunes changed so massively after we signed Bruno and Fred played much more without him than with him. Our great run of form started with the signing of Bruno, not after lockdown.

Before Bruno we got more points per game when Fred played. After Bruno joined we did get more without him, but the level of opposition he faced was much higher. He faced four of the top seven teams (Chelsea, Wolves, Man City and Spurs) in his six starts, whereas without him we only faced two teams in the top 10 and they were Leicester and Sheffield United, two teams who were in dreadful form after the lockdown with five wins between them in the 19 games they played.

 

[Silas]

As in if we had a competent board and sporting director who could have probably brought in someone better, than no, but....

as a bench player for DFM had Woodward not signed a 32 year old Matic to a three year deal, than yes.

Fred is a good player, but he doesn't have a good first touch on the ball to be a great starting DMF, and as a result often has reckless engagements trying to retrieve the ball.

I think he's good for now, but ultimately if Solskjaer want two attacking midfielders up front in a 4-3-3 formation, United will ultimately have to spend on a quality CDM.

I think this position is now the one that needs fixing most out of the whole XI. A very very good defensive midfielder will get the most out of Pogba or Mctominay as the other central midfielder.

I like Fred's enthusiasm but i'm constantly nervous when he has the ball in defensive areas

Hence the interest in Caicedo, I imagine.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

That's hardly an even situation since our fortunes changed so massively after we signed Bruno and Fred played much more without him than with him. Our great run of form started with the signing of Bruno, not after lockdown.

Before Bruno we got more points per game when Fred played. After Bruno joined we did get more without him, but the level of opposition he faced was much higher. He faced four of the top seven teams (Chelsea, Wolves, Man City and Spurs) in his six starts, whereas without him we only faced two teams in the top 10 and they were Leicester and Sheffield United, two teams who were in dreadful form after the lockdown with five wins between them in the 19 games they played.

Well yes, in the 17 games Fred started before Fernandes joined, the team picked up 1.5 points a game compared to 1.3 in the 7 games he didn't start. Over the entire season, the difference is massive and it's not as simple as saying Fred was unlucky to be dropped just as the team finally started playing at CL levels. He was kept out because Pogba was fit again, Matic was in better form and the manager clearly believed him to be a better player in that role even though he's a pensioner.

My point is, there are posters in this thread saying Fred is indispensable, our best midfielder, our most consistent player in the last 18 months, the best midfielder you could buy for 50M, "inspired business", better than Kante (two of them!), etc etc. If he was all that, he would have been a nailed-on starter throughout the 18 months in question, in particular the most recent 12 where the team's actually performed well. He hasn't been, and he should be held to a higher standard before people start throwing all that praise around.

Right now, I think my description of him as a 50 million signing with one awful season, half a good one, and one acceptable one where the team's best football was played without him is perfectly fair.

 

[MadDogg]

Well yes, in the 17 games Fred started before Fernandes joined, the team picked up 1.5 points a game compared to 1.3 in the 7 games he didn't start. Over the entire season, the difference is massive and it's not as simple as saying Fred was unlucky to be dropped just as the team finally started playing at CL levels. He was kept out because Pogba was fit again, Matic was in better form and the manager clearly believed him to be a better player in that role even though he's a pensioner.

My point is, there are posters in this thread saying Fred is indispensable, our best midfielder, our most consistent player in the last 18 months, the best midfielder you could buy for 50M, "inspired business", better than Kante (two of them!), etc etc. If he was all that, he would have been a nailed-on starter throughout the 18 months in question, in particular the most recent 12 where the team's actually performed well. He hasn't been, and he should be held to a higher standard before people start throwing all that praise around.

Right now, I think my description of him as a 50 million signing with one awful season, half a good one, and one acceptable one where the team's best football was played without him is perfectly fair.

You are being harsh with that last bit though. We only played really well for the first 2 or 3 games after the lockdown. After that we were playing no better (in fact I think most would agree we were worse) than what we were between Bruno joining and lockdown despite playing far weaker teams. There were a lot of people wanting to change things up over the last month of the PL season because our midfield in particular was struggling, and the best match we played at the end of the season was against Sevilla when Fred came back in and partnered Pogba (unfortunately our midfield was let down by our attackers not being able to finish the chances that were created for them).

I do agree some are going a bit overboard with the praise, but I just feel you are going too far the other way. Other than the brilliant 2 or 3 matches directly after lockdown we've generally played better with him than without him for 18 months now.

 

[MU655]

I find this argument about him being poor at passing complete nonsense. He has an average passing accuracy of 87% from 2009 onwards. He has an 87% pass accuracy this Premier League season, and 87.5% in the last one. He is highly progressive in his passing, so it isn't just sideways/backwards passes.

Carrick had an accuracy of 87.9% from 2009 onwards, who was a better passer. Arguably, the best midfielder ever, Xavi, had a pass accuracy of 93% from 2009 to 2015. This obviously doesn't include their earlier careers, but it does back up the fact that people seem to have absurd expectations of Fred's passing.

Also, shooting is a strange one to rate a player who is playing DM. Would you not take Makelele because he only scored about 30 goals in 700 games? Would you not take Busquets because he has only scored 15, or so, in his entire career? Or how about Carrick who managed about 20? Goal scoring is not that important to someone who plays so deep. You should not be expecting a lot of goals from them, anyway.

A lot of our play goes through Fred. He makes the second-most passes per game, just behind Fernandes. We pick up more points with Fred in the team than without him, so he has a positive influence on the team.

 

[meamth]

He is money well spent.

Considering the fact that due to current market and inflation, he is worth that much.

pre Neymar transfer he would cost only 25 million.

 

[Brad2020]

Hence the interest in Caicedo, I imagine.

Possibly, but Caicedo is quite young, I can't imagine him in the starting eleven within the next three years at least.

You would think a top CDM would be somewhere near the top of United's transfer priorities, but the media is reporting Haaland is back on the agenda for the summer.

So...I have no idea where United's transfer priorities are.

 

[James Peril]

He’s being overrated enormously by the OP, sorry to say. A great player in certain games, other times invisible, then even crap/losing head. He is decent and a good squad player, but would also be one of the first to be replaced if the market has anyone tasty available. Him using a lot of time to get accustomed to the level is also a negative, if every player does that we have little evolution. Imagine Bruno spending 18 months to get a hold of the level, they arrived with similar reputations, we weren’t sure of their levels.

 

[Camilo]

He's vital to our team and recent form for sure, but I think a lot of players of similar or less money could do what he does.

No need to replace him, but fairly easy to replace as well. 50 million was certainly not good business, but it's fine.