[acnumber9]

You are saying Fred’s performance today is too bad to be acceptable. I think it completely nonsense without any ground. This is what we are arguing here.
Football is a team sports. Every player has flaws even for the generational talents. It’s about how team can be set up to hide the flaws and maximize the best as a unit, unless the players have attitude and work ethic issues. I don’t see those issues at all from him today.
I just saw a player trying his best to help the left side, sensed the danger on right because Rashford, pogba could not neutralized their high press and channel run and went to right to help and run back to recover his supposed position, did forward line breaking pass, pushed forward to support our attack, ...
How can one criticize such a performance? He did miss McT as the whole team did.

I don’t doubt his effort. I doubt his ability as a midfield player. I think our midfield is a big weakness that is regularly exposed. You don’t, good for you. Don’t be surprised when we don’t get kick on until it’s improved.

 

[city-puma]

I don’t doubt his effort. I doubt his ability as a midfield player. I think our midfield is a big weakness that is regularly exposed. You don’t, good for you. Don’t be surprised when we don’t get kick on until it’s improved.

My point is McFred is an excellent partnership, one of the best in the league and the one can allow Bruno to play to his strength and the whole team functional very dynamically.
Our issue is that we don’t have another system which can utilize the other midfielders to achieve the same impact on the game.

 

[Ekeke]

I thought he had some good moments and held his own against Arsenal's midfield. But yes the horror pass too

 

[acnumber9]

My point is McFred is an excellent partnership, one of the best in the league and the one can allow Bruno to play to his strength and the whole team functional very dynamically.
Our issue is that we don’t have another system which can utilize the other midfielders to achieve the same impact on the game.

I disagree. I think it’s a huge weakness and we regularly get out played in midfield when we play teams of any quality.

 

[Glorio]

I'm a fan of Fred, weaknesses and all, but against Arsenal (like last time) his erratic passing seems to get sooo much worse, and of course as he's so physically outmatched by their midfield, he really struggles.

The amount of stray passes today from him, and simple ones at that, was a massive worry.

 

[city-puma]

everyone dominates the midfield against us. It’s one of the major minus points of playing Pogba and Bruno together. I’m always saying it, we don’t scrap for it in the middle without McFred but that comes with its own limitations. If we won the midfield battle more and higher up I think we’d score a lot more

The only teams can dominate the midfield against us when McFred is playing are pool and city.
Pool uses three midfielders and 2.5 personals from their front three plus one full back to achieve it by number advantage and intensity.
City use six or five midfielders plus one fullback to achieve the supremacy in the midfield by the intensity and also the number advantage.
Our front three probably can only produce 1-1.5 personal in that sense. Pogba’s intensity can only make him 0.5 personal probably in his best effort.

 

[city-puma]

I disagree. I think it’s a huge weakness and we regularly get out played in midfield when we play teams of any quality.

Disagree what? McFred is bad? Or, we have issue that we don’t have another system when McFred isn’t playing?

 

[acnumber9]

Disagree what? McFred is bad? Or, we have issue that we don’t have another system when McFred isn’t playing?

That they’re a good enough pairing.

 

[Ali Dia]

Disagree what? McFred is bad? Or, we have issue that we don’t have another system when McFred isn’t playing?

yeah it’s our whole midfield and forward line don’t press or tackle with any intensity. When Fred or McT don’t play then our DM is also another passive player. It’s a recipe for disaster. The truth is we are depending on Cavani at 33 and Pogba who doesn’t even really want to be here to pull something special out of the bag and that’s only going to happen so many times while we walk our way through games. We need other options but that’s for another thread. I especially hate watching one or 2 of our players press while the rest stand around. It makes no sense to me. It looks like it’s optional!

 

[city-puma]

I'm a fan of Fred, weaknesses and all, but against Arsenal (like last time) his erratic passing seems to get sooo much worse, and of course as he's so physically outmatched by their midfield, he really struggles.

The amount of stray passes today from him, and simple ones at that, was a massive worry.

The issue is pogba I have to say. Pogba is not very

I thought he had some good moments and held his own against Arsenal's midfield. But yes the horror pass too

indeed It looked horrible. I assume you mean the cross field pass to the right when he was surrounded by three or four arse players. As I remember, just before the pass, Lindelof moved his head to check the situation in front of him and WBA just on the forward move, and none of them expect the pass. TBH, I think it just unfortunate situation. Probably, Lindeloff should expect the pass more likely to come? If McT was still on pitch, he would have moved to a position to give Fred an option.

 

[city-puma]

That they’re a good enough pairing.

Ok. We agree disagree...

 

[Borys]

I disagree. I think it’s a huge weakness and we regularly get out played in midfield when we play teams of any quality.

That has more to do with the system we play (basically front 4 staying high meaning our midfield duo has too much to do). It is a huge weakness, but I don't know what kind of midfielder would really take us up a level. It's just very difficult to play that formation especially against strong sides which use 3 midfielders plus forwards dropping deeper. Something we don't do so we get outnumbered but it's not an issue of personnel only.

Edit: basically what @city-puma has explained before my post.

 

[city-puma]

That has more to do with the system we play (basically front 4 staying high meaning our midfield duo has too much to do). It is a huge weakness, but I don't know what kind of midfielder would really take us up a level. It's just very difficult to play that formation especially against strong sides which use 3 midfielders plus forwards dropping deeper. Something we don't do so we get outnumbered but it's not an issue of personnel only.

Edit: basically what @city-puma has explained before my post.

I feel maybe we can add Diallo to the formula, 4-3-2-1. If we have three-man midfield, pogba can definitely be in it and VDB can be on right. Diallo and Bruno can work as a floating two in-between the single forward and the midfield three. Diallo seemly has the Sancho’s ball control capability from I saw. It might work because all mid and front players can score except Fred (unfortunately).

 

[Cabin Clown]

Was my MOTM actually. When Scott went off he was very good bar a couple of ill passes.

 

[lawliet354]

I cannot understand how he even manage to miscontrol the ball even under no pressure, surely is player with the least composure I've ever seen to play in midfield for us. One press from the opponent then it's mistake waiting to happen with him. Still very good and reliable when trying to retrieve possession but absolutely absolutely useless when in possession

 

[MadDogg]

I don’t doubt his effort. I doubt his ability as a midfield player. I think our midfield is a big weakness that is regularly exposed. You don’t, good for you. Don’t be surprised when we don’t get kick on until it’s improved.

I agree that our midfield is a weakness, but is it Fred that is causing that weakness or is it his partner?

Whenever we play Pogba in a two man midfield we tend to be open to opposition running through the midfield. Fred handles it a lot better than Matic does but there's only so much one person can do. I honestly don't think there's a player on the planet who could handle it game-in game-out. Even when Pogba played with Kante at his peak in the international game (generally slower tempo and weaker opposition than you face in the league) they basically used a third central midfielder on the wing to help compensate. Pogba can do it at times but in his entire career he's never shown consistency in that role.

When we play McFred we are normally solid defensively but struggle to control the game ourselves. That sits more on McTominay since Fred is obviously the better ball-player in that combination in pretty much every aspect.

If we sign a new midfielder that provides a better balance than any of our current ones do, chances are it'll be Fred next to him a significant amount of the time. If it's McTominay we'll still struggle on the ball. If it's Pogba we'll still be run through (if he's even still here). Matic doesn't have the legs anymore. VDB is an interesting one and I hope he kicks on, but as of yet he hasn't shown anything to think he'll be first choice. So unless we sign two new midfielders (unlikely) chances are Fred will remain our best option. And then, when he has another balanced midfielder next to him, we can judge him properly.

 

[acnumber9]

When we play McFred we are normally solid defensively but struggle to control the game ourselves.

I’m not convinced we are. Neither are that good defensively. They don’t track runners well and we regularly leave our defenders one on one. They’re good at pressuring players, Fred wins a lot of balls doing it. Unfortunately he also loses a lot, which often results in a free run at our defence.

Obviously when Pogba is having an off day he creates a lot of work for those around him but for me, when he’s been on his defensive game lately we’ve seen the difference of what a top midfielder actually can do. Fred isn’t it. Not for me.

 

[MadDogg]

I’m not convinced we are. Neither are that good defensively. They don’t track runners well and we regularly leave our defenders one on one. They’re good at pressuring players, Fred wins a lot of balls doing it. Unfortunately he also loses a lot, which often results in a free run at our defence.

Obviously when Pogba is having an off day he creates a lot of work for those around him but for me, when he’s been on his defensive game lately we’ve seen the difference of what a top midfielder actually can do. Fred isn’t it. Not for me.

Who out of our current options are though?

I'd love to have such a strong midfield that Fred would be purely a squad player. That would mean our first choice midfield was damn good. But the reality is that he's the only one who doesn't have a very significant weakness that makes it difficult to play in a midfield two (not to say he doesn't have weaknesses, just that they aren't as pronounced as the others). It's why he's the one who ends up doing the majority of the defensive work when he plays next to Pogba, then turns around and does most of the ball-playing and setting the tempo when he plays next to McTominay. If we signed somebody new to play instead of Fred, even if they are better than him we'll have the same problems depending on who the new guy plays next to. If it's Pogba we'll be too open, if it's McTominay we won't have enough on the ball.

Ideally we'd sign a younger, better version of Matic (or a Carrick). Somebody who will defend more with their positioning and intelligence while also being significantly better on the ball than McTominay. Then Fred can play next to them and do his mad dog routine when the opposition have the ball, hunting and and winning the ball all over the field knowing the new guy has got his back to clean it up if it gets past him. And the two of them together will provide a lot more control when we have the ball than we currently get with McTominay. Then in another year or two we could look at signing another central midfielder (unless either VDB or McTominay have stepped up) to potentially replace Fred.

 

[Borys]

I feel maybe we can add Diallo to the formula, 4-3-2-1. If we have three-man midfield, pogba can definitely be in it and VDB can be on right. Diallo and Bruno can work as a floating two in-between the single forward and the midfield three. Diallo seemly has the Sancho’s ball control capability from I saw. It might work because all mid and front players can score except Fred (unfortunately).

It would require 3 man midfield. This will never happen. Notice how Ole uses his midfield - most of the time it's ONE midfielder on his own, because the second midfielder drops to the defense and third plays in-line with the strikers.

IMO Ole (or the coaching staff in general) has no clue what midfield is supposed to be doing. Whenever I see other teams play, they have midfielders doing what our defenders do (it's almost like we use CBs as playmakers).

The only setup which resembles true midfield is Fred - McTominay, because (as limited as they are) they stay in same positions all game and it provides a good platform. Second working pair was van de Beek playing in midfield, he seems to know what to do in that role.
Whenever we play Pogba or Matic in any setup it effectively leaves us with one man midfield, because the first roams* around the pitch and the second drops into back 4. Notice how big is the distance between them most of the time.
Yesterday was a good example, McTominay was dropping into defense while Pogba was high on the left. Again, 1,5 man midfield.

*the problem with Pogba is he's actually pretty useless when he doesn't roam so there's that.

I would play 3 man midfield with Matic at the base, Fred on the left and van de Beek (if we want to have structure) or Pogba on the right. That leaves us with Bruno in free role plus two strikers. But I see chances of Ole doing that close to 0, he never plays structured midfield.

 

[Sylar]

Unlucky not to score, thought it was a great save.

Martial coming on for Scott ruined our flow and control of the game. He did ok but was better before the forced sub

 

[Poborsky's hair]

The rest of the performance wasn’t very good though. They ran through our midfield with ease whenever they actually tried to. And it’s a regular problem our midfield has.

Is that Fred's fault?, he's often there alone to close the gaps, mop around but midfield is a huge area, for just one DM/CM, Pogba didn't help when he dropped deeper however our front 4 including Bruno were too far ahead to be of any help either. It's the overal defending as a unit which is a problem. Players don't know how to press or when to press, if they really don't have the instincts like Fred and doing the press alone callas for a problem. I don t wanna make it another anti Ole thread but his counterattacking "style" is a bit outdated for top club. Only ever we look solid when we play two dynamic CMs who like to defend. Sometimes we can get away with it with one ( and a half) but if the opposition is on it and Arsenal looked confident to cause us problems, we look shaky. It's not a Fred's problem though.

People crying out for Rice to be played as the only DM will be in shock when same thing shappen again, if he plays there alone. They have Souček who is as brilliant defensively. If we ever want to deploy one CDM like City, we should hire a new manager or at least someone who will help us with this problem. After two and a half years it's been abysmal and different players take blame for it. It's a game of a collective always and foremost.

 

[Litch]

Is that Fred's fault?, he's often there alone to close the gaps, mop around but midfield is a huge area, for just one DM/CM, Pogba didn't help when he dropped deeper however our front 4 including Bruno were too far ahead to be of any help either. It's the overal defending as a unit which is a problem. Players don't know how to press or when to press, if they really don't have the instincts like Fred and doing the press alone callas for a problem. I don t wanna make it another anti Ole thread but his counterattacking "style" is a bit outdated for top club. Only ever we look solid when we play two dynamic CMs who like to defend. Sometimes we can get away with it with one ( and a half) but if the opposition is on it and Arsenal looked confident to cause us problems, we look shaky. It's not a Fred's problem though.

People crying out for Rice to be played as the only DM will be in shock when same thing shappen again, if he plays there alone. They have Souček who is as brilliant defensively. If we ever want to deploy one CDM like City, we should hire a new manager or at least someone who will help us with this problem. After two and a half years it's been abysmal and different players take blame for it. It's a game of a collective always and foremost.

Spot on. It wouldn't matter who played there, as we have seen many times, no one player can cover that amount of ground. Pogs was completely out of position the second half leaving Fred to do his dirty work along with his own. Can you improve on Fred, yes but that's applicable to most players but equally be careful what you wish for. Spend 60m on Rice as we did spending 80m on Harry, the system they played in brought the best out of them with nothing like the level of expectation that 'they are the answer'. Our lack of any system means it becomes more reliant on Fred and Scott to fill in the inadequacy of one. Ironically, if we had one we probably wouldn't need either in the same way. Different but in the same way Liverpool can play midfielders at CB and City without a forward.....

 

[simplyared]

I'm not a fan but yesterday thought he was a lot tidier than usual. Seemed to have added a little composure to his game which is a good sign. Decent performance!

 

[Strats]

MotM

 

[Devil may care]

I enjoyed his 2nd half performance as a Fredback.

 

[The Mitcher]

I enjoyed his 2nd half performance as a Fredback.

On the frudgewing.

 

[Scorpy]

I love Fred.

 

[Jonno]

Our best left winger since 90's Giggs

 

[Borys]

He brings a lot to this team, knows how to position himself to be a passing option in the middle, and his passing is fine as long as he keeps it on the ground.

Not sure if keeping him for 90' was the right move, he worked really hard all game.

That faint before he passed to Shaw was nice.

 

[Harry190]

Is it the ball, is it his shoes, is it his feet? Why can't he control the ball well half the time. Bit of a mystery.

 

[city-puma]

He brings a lot to this team, knows how to position himself to be a passing option in the middle, and his passing is fine as long as he keeps it on the ground.

Not sure if keeping him for 90' was the right move, he worked really hard all game.

That faint before he passed to Shaw was nice.

He has unbelievable stamina and looks playing better when playing every game. If we give him a rest, he will struggle a bit. So odd.

 

[rooney2009]

Massive fan of Fred
He is the kind of player that can play in any position on the field

 

[Bwuk]

I’ve said on here before I think Fred can play left back and I think if Pep had signed him that’s where he would of ended up.

 

[MadDogg]

I mentioned it in another thread, but it's amazing he hasn't had any assists over the last month or two. He's set up 5 or 6 clear goal scoring opportunities only for the attacker to stuff it up (another one today when Martial's lifted shot went a few cm's wide), and created a bunch of other half-chances. Pretty sure two of them hit the post but they just won't go in.

Shaw has been similar over the same time period where he could almost have had double digits in assists, but at least he finally got two today. Maybe it'll start happening for Fred soon as well.

 

[Cutch]

The only player that I thought was a bit meh tonight. Very weak on their disallowed goal, which has been a bit of a theme in recent weeks (RLC for Fulham was another to take advantage). First touch at times was all over the place, passing on occasions was messy and is still shooting from distance with his hopeless right foot. I do like elements of his game but I think he might be one of the least technical brazilians I've ever seen

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

His body positioning on his passes is Chris Smalling-esque.

 

[ivaldo]

His body positioning on his passes is Chris Smalling-esque.

And yet he still plays some brilliant passes, has a fantastic ability to play through the lines, and should really be sitting on more assists this season.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

And yet he still plays some brilliant passes, has a fantastic ability to play through the lines, and should really be sitting on more assists this season.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

 

[Polar]

He is a very important player for us today - in our current set-up. His work rate is immense.

At the same time I think our future progress is limited by relying on Fred on the midfield. He lacks many offensive skills, and we can’t count on him at all in our attack. If we want the team to take it to the next level we cannot afford having midfielders as blind passengers in our offensive play.

 

[Bebestation]

Fans just looking for a reason to complain after a 9-0.

Bit bored so points at a player that was not used as much today due to us having 75% possession of the game.