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2020-21 Performances


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acnumber9

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The reason why the other players made individual errors and couldn’t win aerial duel were must be because Fred’s existence sending bad distraction to the other player, you are death right.

Simple fact is coming from simple mind, focus on stats but not watching the game to know what’s happening is such lazy argument.
Matic would have to deal with the same individual errors happening around him too. We still had a better defence with him in the team than with Fred. Simple, provable fact.

I watched the games thanks. The stats just happen to correlate to what I seen.
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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Matic would have to deal with the same individual errors happening around him too. We still had a better defence with him in the team than with Fred. Simple, probable fact.

I watched the games thanks. The stats just happen to correlate to what I seen.
This stats below clearly show that our defense was still good even when we have Fred and no Matic. The fact is that our form is improved because Bruno came in to solve the lack of creativity while our defense was always been similar with or without Matic.

This is the period when we had Fred but no Matic, we had 13.97 xGA (expected goal against).



This is the period when Matic came back into the team, we had 18.56 xGA.

 

acnumber9

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This stats below clearly show that our defense was still good even when we have Fred and no Matic. The fact is that our form is improved because Bruno came in to solve the lack of creativity while our defense was always been similar with or without Matic.

This is the period when we had Fred but no Matic, we had 13.97 xGA (expected goal against).



This is the period when Matic came back into the team, we had 18.56 xGA.

So even by your own stats our defence is demonstrably better with Matic in midfield? Glad to see my eyes weren’t deceiving me.
 

Bebestation

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For me Fred needs a pacey strong player like Mctomminay to cover his weaknesses and Bruno to play creatively.

When Pogba comes we need to cover his weaknesses to and Pogba doesnt cover other players weaknesses either. That's why I am not a personal fan of Fred with Pogba and I prefer Fred & Mctomminay as long as we have the creativity up above.

Pogba in the Premier league cant play 4231, a 433 where both Bruno & Pogba plays in CM can work because Fernandes will cover Pogba's weaknesses and the creativity role gets spread between both the players. Fred could play there in a 433 behind those 2 because there is more defensive capabilities in that formation playing deeper than Pogba looking lost playing so deep.
 

KcB32

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This stats below clearly show that our defense was still good even when we have Fred and no Matic. The fact is that our form is improved because Bruno came in to solve the lack of creativity while our defense was always been similar with or without Matic.

This is the period when we had Fred but no Matic, we had 13.97 xGA (expected goal against).



This is the period when Matic came back into the team, we had 18.56 xGA.

Don't mean to derail the conversation regarding Fred, but I thought these stats were quite interesting.

If you normalize by matches, xGA is 1.16 per match in the period with Fred but no Matic, and 0.97 with Matic back in the team. Not a large difference at all.

On the offensive side, xG remained relatively similar as well (slight decrease in fact) at 1.82 in the period with Fred but no Matic, and 1.74 with Matic back in the team. So, our expected goals actually decreased in the second period.

The interesting part is how we performed relative to expectation in the two periods. In your first chart, we had 1.73 xPTS per game, but underperformed, earning only 1.58 pts per game. In the second chart, xPTS were marginally higher at 1.88 per game, however we exceeded the expectation earning 2 points per game in the period.

Essentially, we under performed in the first period and over performed in the second period, relative to expectation. I think the concerning bit is that our xG slightly decreased in the second period which makes me wonder if we really did "solve the lack of creativity" with the addition of Bruno or if we just had a "luckier" period.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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So even by your own stats our defence is demonstrably better with Matic in midfield? Glad to see my eyes weren’t deceiving me.
How is having higher chance to conceded is better? What about you go look at it again, the lower the better as our conceded chances for goals are less.
 

Dr Foo

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Ole needs to trust and mix it up with the Fred/McT partnership along with Bruno/VDB that served us so well before the lockdown, esp against the bigger teams
 

MadDogg

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Ole needs to trust and mix it up with the Fred/McT partnership along with Bruno/VDB that served us so well before the lockdown, esp against the bigger teams
That partnership only played two games in the league, drawing both. Against Spurs and Everton. They did play four games in the cups and won all four, but they were against teams like Norwich, Derby, Club Brugge and LASK.

Fred/Matic is the combo that did best in the league with three wins and a draw.

Edit: I should clarify that those are the respective records when played with Bruno. Obviously they played together earlier in the season with the likes of Pereira, Lingard or Mata in front of them.
 
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P-Nut

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I don't know what's happened to Fred and McT. Both for parts of last season looked as though they would kick on and cement their places in the team. And now neither even look capable of stepping in to play when someone needs a rest, and that's with Pogba playing terribly at the moment.
 

Dr Foo

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That partnership only played two games in the league, drawing both. Against Spurs and Everton. They did play four games in the cups and won all four, but they were against teams like Norwich, Derby, Club Brugge and LASK.

Fred/Matic is the combo that did best in the league with three wins and a draw.

Edit: I should clarify that those are the respective records when played with Bruno. Obviously they played together earlier in the season with the likes of Pereira, Lingard or Mata in front of them.
Thanks for the stats. I recall that midway last season when we started crap, Fred and McT played their way into form such that they gave energy and dominance in games where they were the least of our problems. Am for the Fred/Matic combo too. Point is that Ole shouldn't be blindly defaulting to a fixed midfield of Pogba Matic Bruno all the time (unless against lower blocks/less robust midfields - but the quality of midfields in the league is increasing). And as other posters have suggested in other treads, we could try a midfield diamond (Matic at the base, Fred and Pogba in the 2, and Bruno further forward - VDB for Pogba if he remains a virus) that may better play to our strengths
 

MadDogg

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Thanks for the stats. I recall that midway last season when we started crap, Fred and McT played their way into form such that they gave energy and dominance in games where they were the least of our problems. Am for the Fred/Matic combo too. Point is that Ole shouldn't be blindly defaulting to a fixed midfield of Pogba Matic Bruno all the time (unless against lower blocks/less robust midfields - but the quality of midfields in the league is increasing). And as other posters have suggested in other treads, we could try a midfield diamond (Matic at the base, Fred and Pogba in the 2, and Bruno further forward - VDB for Pogba if he remains a virus) that may better play to our strengths
I'd agree with that. I checked out the stats from the last three seasons the other day in this thread: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our-record-with-our-strongest-midfield.458172/

We seem to have our best runs when we use Matic and another more defensive midfielder (first Herrera and now Fred, albeit it's fairly small sample size for the latter) providing the base, with a more attacking midfielder ahead of them.

Now that we've signed Telles to act as a more attacking fullback a diamond might just work so we can get the best of both worlds with the midfield. The right side of our attack might still be a bit weak, but with Martial out and Cavani not able to play just playing Rashford and Greenwood together up front with the diamond behind them might be the way to go for now.
 

acnumber9

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How is having higher chance to conceded is better? What about you go look at it again, the lower the better as our conceded chances for goals are less.
Have a look at the number of games and come back to me when you understand them.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Have a look at the number of games and come back to me when you understand them.
Those are the number of games when Fred was in the team before Matic came back into the team vs the number of games when Matic came back into the team, that’s the argument you started mate.
 

acnumber9

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Those are the number of games when Fred was in the team before Matic came back into the team vs the number of games when Matic came back into the team, that’s the argument you started mate.
You still don’t understand do you? Try dividing your goals against figures by the number of games played and then come back to me.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You still don’t understand do you? Try dividing your goals against figures by the number of games played and then come back to me.
I did, there is no drastically changes before and after Matic came back which proved my point was right. Is it that difficult to admit you were wrong about our defense?
 

acnumber9

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I did, there is no drastically changes before and after Matic came back which proved my point was right. Is it that difficult to admit you were wrong about our defense?
It’s factually correct our defence is better both in absolute numbers and in your arbitrary stats with Matic than without. I’m not the one who misunderstood them or got it wrong.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It’s factually correct our defence is better both in absolute numbers and in your arbitrary stats with Matic than without. I’m not the one who misunderstood them or got it wrong.
Looks like you are forgetting your own original argument/point. What about you read this your own post as a reminder and come back to me:

Our form and defensive record improved drastically when Matic came back into the team. This great form Fred supposedly had coincided with when the team was nowhere near good enough in any area of the pitch. His performances that get held up as his great ones have invariably been in games where we completely surrendered the midfield.
Did the absolute numbers and stats show any drastically changes with and without Matic? No.

So my point was right, defense was always been like that before and after Matic came back, the one thing was changed is our form which happened when Bruno came.

And remember Matic didn’t start in wolves 0-0 game which was included in that Matic stats as well as the 1-1 drew vs Spurs and 2-0 win vs Palace.
 

acnumber9

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Looks like you are forgetting your own original argument/point. What about you read this your own post as a reminder and come back to me:



Did the absolute numbers and stats show any drastically changes with and without Matic? No.

So my point was right, defense was always been like that before and after Matic came back, the one thing was changed is our form which happened when Bruno came.

And remember Matic didn’t start in wolves 0-0 game which was included in that Matic stats as well as the 1-1 drew vs Spurs and 2-0 win vs Palace.
We conceded 23 in 20 before Matic came back. We conceded 13 in 18 afterwards. You’re arguing against facts. You’re wrong and your stats prove you wrong and you didn’t understand them.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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We conceded 23 in 20 before Matic came back. We conceded 13 in 18 afterwards. You’re arguing against facts.
What a lame, you chose to go circle and brings up your pointless stats again rather than admit you are wrong.

The facts is that you don’t watch the games and I’m arguing against someone who don’t watch games but use stats only to make lazy argument. Our xGa (expected goal against) when Fred was in the team before Matic came back and our xGa when Matic came back are similar. I don’t know why you are still arguing mate.
 

acnumber9

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What a lame, you chose to go circle and brings up your pointless stats again rather than admit you are wrong.

The facts is that you don’t watch the games and I’m arguing against someone who don’t watch games but use stats only to make lazy argument. Our xGa (expected goal against) when Fred was in the team before Matic came back and our xGa when Matic came back are similar. I don’t know why you are still arguing mate.
Actual goals conceded are pointless? But xGA isn’t?

I’m not wrong. You’re arguing against facts and even your own arbitrary stats prove you wrong because you looked at the absolute figure rather than the games. You’re making an idiot of yourself. Go and bore somebody else.
 

MadDogg

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We conceded 23 in 20 before Matic came back. We conceded 13 in 18 afterwards. You’re arguing against facts. You’re wrong and your stats prove you wrong and you didn’t understand them.
Bruno made a much bigger difference as he was the catalyst for our entire team playing better.

7 conceded in 14 games with Bruno.
29 conceded in 24 games without Bruno.

Games before we signed Bruno
With Matic - 8 in 7 games.
Without Matic - 21 in 17 games.

Very similar stats with or without Matic. Technically a 0.09 per game advantage when he does play.

Games with Bruno
With Matic - 6 in 11 games.
Without Matic - 1 in 3 games.

Technically a bit better without Matic (0.21 per game), but such a small sample size it's not a great example.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Actual goals conceded are pointless? But xGA isn’t?

I’m not wrong. You’re arguing against facts and even your own arbitrary stats prove you wrong because you looked at the absolute figure rather than the games. You’re making an idiot of yourself. Go and bore somebody else.
xGA helps reveal whether a team famed for resilience actually has a brilliant defence or whether they're heavily reliant on a world class goalkeeper which was the original argument. Goal conceded doesn’t reveal such thing. You don’t need to be so defensive just because you are proven wrong.
 

acnumber9

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xGA helps reveal whether a team famed for resilience actually has a brilliant defence or whether they're heavily reliant on a world class goalkeeper. Goal conceded doesn’t reveal such thing. You don’t need to be so defensive just because you are proven wrong.
You haven’t proven me wrong. Quite the opposite. Bye.
 

acnumber9

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Bruno made a much bigger difference as he was the catalyst for our entire team playing better.

7 conceded in 14 games with Bruno.
29 conceded in 24 games without Bruno.

Games before we signed Bruno
With Matic - 8 in 7 games.
Without Matic - 21 in 17 games.

Very similar stats with or without Matic. Technically a 0.09 per game advantage when he does play.

Games with Bruno
With Matic - 6 in 11 games.
Without Matic - 1 in 3 games.

Technically a bit better without Matic (0.21 per game), but such a small sample size it's not a great example.
Yeah, I’m not going to agree having an attacking player in the team improved our defence. All these stats ignore that Matic had to play often with two attacking players alongside rather than Fred playing with McTominay. Regardless of all that the fact remains as we conceded less with Matic than with Fred in his place.
 

MadDogg

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Yeah, I’m not going to agree having an attacking player in the team improved our defence. All these stats ignore that Matic had to play often with two attacking players alongside rather than Fred playing with McTominay. Regardless of all that the fact remains as we conceded less with Matic than with Fred in his place.
You don't think the team as a whole playing significantly better and keeping the opposition on the back foot helps us not concede?

Personally I think they should both be playing together so I'm not particularly one-or-the-other. I just think you ignoring the impact that Bruno's introduction had on the entire team is a bit of selective-blindness.
 

acnumber9

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You don't think the team as a whole playing significantly better and keeping the opposition on the back foot helps us not concede?

Personally I think they should both be playing together so I'm not particularly one-or-the-other. I just think you ignoring the impact that Bruno's introduction had on the entire team is a bit of selective-blindness.
It will help at times yes. But it can also be a hindrance to a defence if players overcommit. And playing beside Pogba is a tougher defensive job than playing with McTominay. I think the selective blindness is not seeing that Matic in form gives players like Bruno a platform to perform on.
 

Bebestation

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With nearly most clubs in the PL pressing these days and Ole's inability to use any other formation apart from the 4231 - I cant see why he thinks pogba and Matic is better in a double pivot than Fred & Mctomminay. Together the latter two are more mobile, box to box, defensively better in a partnership than Pogba and Matic. The creativity was the only problem with Fred & Mctomminay and that got sorted as soon as Bruno came in at CAM.
 

AneRu

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With nearly most clubs in the PL pressing these days and Ole's inability to use any other formation apart from the 4231 - I cant see why he thinks pogba and Matic is better in a double pivot than Fred & Mctomminay. Together the latter two are more mobile, box to box, defensively better in a partnership than Pogba and Matic. The creativity was the only problem with Fred & Mctomminay and that got sorted as soon as Bruno came in at CAM.
I think we could easily get around it, we could play Pogba as a Right sided midfielder and bring in Fred as Matic's partner. The midfield will offer the defence more protection and the team gets to benefit from Pogba's creativity in offensive areas and yet not suffer from his defensive lapses.
 

Bebestation

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I think we could easily get around it, we could play Pogba as a Right sided midfielder and bring in Fred as Matic's partner. The midfield will offer the defence more protection and the team gets to benefit from Pogba's creativity in offensive areas and yet not suffer from his defensive lapses.
I personally dont think we need Bruno playing as a CAM. He is such an energetic player who from CAM you see him dropping back consistently to CDM positions to try and tackle the ball.

What's the difference between Bruno as a CAM who drops back at CM/CDM to provide defensive cover - to Bruno as a CM who is positioned deeper but makes the consistent attacking runs in to CAM positions? I literally see Bruno drop back deeper than Pogba in a 4231 to win the ball and then we find ourselves without that CAM in his position.

I say this because whilst Pogba plays so deep, he doesnt defensively have the capacity to play such a position in a double pivot. The guy gets pressed, the guy doesnt tackle properly etc. We have pretty much Matic in a double pivot trying to defensively balance Pogba's weaknesses.

If Bruno and Pogba played both as CM (in a 433) having the freedom to attack and move forward when the space opens, then we get the attacking abilities of both players alongside Bruno's defensive ability covering Pogba whenever he gets forward and the opposite, Pogba's ability to provide defensive cover whenever Bruno is able to get forward.

Then we need only another CDM providing defensive cover for both and I can see Matic and Fred doing that decently.

I see absolutely no benefit on playing a 4231 and keeping Pogba so deep and Bruno so high when we could be playing 433 with both of them on the same midfield areas helping each other out.
 

AneRu

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I personally dont think we need Bruno playing as a CAM. He is such an energetic player who from CAM you see him dropping back consistently to CDM positions to try and tackle the ball.

What's the difference between Bruno as a CAM who drops back at CM/CDM to provide defensive cover - to Bruno as a CM who is positioned deeper but makes the consistent attacking runs in to CAM positions? I literally see Bruno drop back deeper than Pogba in a 4231 to win the ball and then we find ourselves without that CAM in his position.

I say this because whilst Pogba plays so deep, he doesnt defensively have the capacity to play such a position in a double pivot. The guy gets pressed, the guy doesnt tackle properly etc. We have pretty much Matic in a double pivot trying to defensively balance Pogba's weaknesses.

If Bruno and Pogba played both as CM (in a 433) having the freedom to attack and move forward when the space opens, then we get the attacking abilities of both players alongside Bruno's defensive ability covering Pogba whenever he gets forward and the opposite, Pogba's ability to provide defensive cover whenever Bruno is able to get forward.

Then we need only another CDM providing defensive cover for both and I can see Matic and Fred doing that decently.

I see absolutely no benefit on playing a 4231 and keeping Pogba so deep and Bruno so high when we could be playing 433 with both of them on the same midfield areas helping each other out.
I think not having a top DM stops us from implementing that option because Matic will be very exposed in that midfield, well he is very exposed now so I guess we won't lose much defensively.
 

Bebestation

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Really useful player, isnt perfect in his attacking play but is useful as an energetic defensive player.
 

Litch

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Midfield better balanced today. Not saying he's the answer but it's clear to me that Pogs and Bruno create too much work for whoever plays next to them two.
 

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Fred's a tidy squad player to have.

I wish he could finish though as he does get the odd chances that are put on a plate for him.