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2021-22 Performances


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4.8 Season Average Rating
Appearances
9
Goals
1
Assists
0
Yellow cards
2

CloneMC16

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He was out-muscled for the goal but I thought he otherwise played well. Far better than McTominay who seems to get a free ride every week despite offering zero.
Pretty much my thoughts. I think he was especially very good in the first half. He played some nice progressive passes and was doing things quickly. The odd giveaway is going to happen when we're playing against a low block and trying to make something happen. The problem is the one big mistake is what will mostly be remembered. Still, I do believe that Fred is getting out-muscled too much this season. This isn't the first instance of him bouncing off of another player. He is pretty short and coming up against guys that are much bigger than he is. I don't know if it's possible for him to bulk up at all, but it might help a bit. A lot happened after Fred lost that battle. The goal could have been avoided.

I feel like McTominay gets more of a pass, because he's an academy player. He also scores the odd goal. There are too many games where he isn't really doing anything.

At this point, Fred is a scapegoat. A player that was bought for too much money, a player limited in his abilities but so vital to United. He struggles because he is asked to do things, he just isn't suited to and still manages to look better than McTominay. I don't want to deny that his form suffered quite a lot, he was way better a year or two ago, but today he was more than fine, one of not many trying to keep the ball on grass, increasing the tempo, not taking 8 touches before passing to the nearest team mate in sight. Of course he is upgradeable but I would upgrade a few others before him.
I think he's a bit unlucky. When he makes a mistake, our opposition punish us quite often. I think the same thing happens to Pogba quite a lot as well. On another day, that counter will be stopped by other players making better decisions. I also think he did fine today, but any mistake that leads to a goal won't be forgotten.

In terms of our first XI, I think the only players that really need upgrading are Fred and McTominay. I would upgrade McTominay before Fred without question, but I think Ole will do the opposite. I'm sure he trusts McTominay more. This might not be completely factual, but I feel like Fred is usually the one that gets subbed when we're making changes to the midfield?
 
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Martialfc

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Fred is pathetic and is a shambolic footballer. He’s can’t pass, shoot, he’s isn’t strong, he’s small, can’t head the ball, has no physical presence. We would be better with Carrick playing at his current age.
 

VanDeBank

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He was out-muscled for the goal but I thought he otherwise played well. Far better than McTominay who seems to get a free ride every week despite offering zero.
This. He should still have the awareness to commit a foul though. Bang average midfielders do this all the time for other teams. He's too undisciplined to be a holding midfielder, but overall he was much better than McTominay. If you're not doing anything, you can't make a mistake. Caf members see the mistake and jump on Fred's back while they don't question his partner in crime.
 

RonaldoVII

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This. He should still have the awareness to commit a foul though. Bang average midfielders do this all the time for other teams. He's too undisciplined to be a holding midfielder, but overall he was much better than McTominay. If you're not doing anything, you can't make a mistake. Caf members see the mistake and jump on Fred's back while they don't question his partner in crime.
It's largely like that at the ground too and really frustrating.

I think our team as a whole could be a lot nastier but keep within the rules. Probably stems from the coaches as neither Solskjaer nor Carrick had that streak in them.
 

pratyush_utd

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I thought he was decent apart from one misplaced pass. That goal was avoidable if he had just taken yellow card and fouled the player. But I don't blame him only as Shaw was equally responsible. There was no need to move from left side when Lindelof was already near Gray.
 

LJJT

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He played well today. Was one of the better players and better than McT. It’s so frustrating he seems to have a couple of poor moments each game and they can be costly. Another game, more individual errors costing us points
 

roykent

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Fred is pathetic and is a shambolic footballer. He’s can’t pass, shoot, he’s isn’t strong, he’s small, can’t head the ball, has no physical presence. We would be better with Carrick playing at his current age.
Thank you. Well said. Fred loses not 1 but 2 one on one battles in the Everton goal today. How much longer do we need to see this!
 

PlayerOne

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I would love to know why Ole continues to pick him? Without using words like workrate, passion and drive.

He's in the team to stop goals and he's rubbish at it, so it's not for his defensive work; while his passing is crap so it's not that either.
 

Sandikan

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Baffling behaviour on their goal.

Has a 50-50 in the centre of the pitch. Absolutely no danger, but loses the ball.
Gets a second go at it, when any normal midfielder would either slide to put the ball out, back to their own man, or just foul the attacker.

Instead, loses it again, and our defence is utterly caught out.
Just an absolute shocker of a run of play.
 

Sandikan

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I would love to know why Ole continues to pick him? Without using words like workrate, passion and drive.

He's in the team to stop goals and he's rubbish at it, so it's not for his defensive work; while his passing is crap so it's not that either.
Reading between the lines, Ole doesn't like midfielders with just one role. He likes the all rounder.
But all rounders, tend to be moderate at all tasks, master of none.

Fred is the absolute best example of that either. Not good at passing, tackling, assisting/scoring. Can't control a game, or hold a position.
He's just energy and up and back.

One of our many players who is best in a 3, as per McTom, Matic and Pogba. Unfortunately we don't play that type of 3, and all of them need 2 others that we don't possess.
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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I thought he was decent in the first half, which was strange as I can't remember the last time I watched him and didn't cringe everytime he did anything.

Second half he reverted to type. Sloppy passes, sloppy in possession, weak in every 50/50.
 

HailtotheKing

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I think our team as a whole could be a lot nastier but keep within the rules. Probably stems from the coaches as neither Solskjaer nor Carrick had that streak in them.
You're talking about the guy that took a red card for the team to avoid a one on one with the goalie? See what you're saying though. And Fred is far less of a problem than McTominay. McTominay off an injury having played 4 full games in days btw. Too simple to put the blame on Fred. He had a crap start to the season but he's been much better. Yes, he shouldn't have been bounced and should've fouled him. But McTominay shouldn't have even been on the pitch. He's been absolutely crap for 3 games straight. It's piss poor from Ole.
 

PlayerOne

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Reading between the lines, Ole doesn't like midfielders with just one role. He likes the all rounder.
But all rounders, tend to be moderate at all tasks, master of none.

Fred is the absolute best example of that either. Not good at passing, tackling, assisting/scoring. Can't control a game, or hold a position.
He's just energy and up and back.

One of our many players who is best in a 3, as per McTom, Matic and Pogba. Unfortunately we don't play that type of 3, and all of them need 2 others that we don't possess.
I wouldn't read too much in what Ole says, his words and actions don't match up. While he did say he likes all rounders, McFred are used as DM's, they rarely break the line and get forward, they take defensive sheeps when we attack. Also, our interest in Rice tells me otherwise.

Honestly cannot understand how Fred gets picked no matter what. He can have a 1 out of 10 performance and still be picked the next game without issues, it's maddening.
 

Litch

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Thought he was playing well and I knew that being done on the half way line, at that was all people would be talking about. If it was at the edge of our box, I get it. Next like Felliani, people will be booing him and no doubt some idiots making racist remarks so social media. If people think we lost the game as a consequence of being bullied on the half way line, there was enough of the game to still win it.

Time for him to go and rebuild his career somewhere else......
 

RG 11

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He's clearly not meant for the PL. Lacks strength and doesn't have any other qualities to compensate for it. Him doing a job is considered playing well by posters here which shows how the standards have truly dropped over the years. Loses the ball time and again leading to disastrous consequences.
 

NZT-One

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I think he's a bit unlucky. When he makes a mistake, our opposition punish us quite often. I think the same thing happens to Pogba quite a lot as well. On another day, that counter will be stopped by other players making better decisions. I also think he did fine today, but any mistake that leads to a goal won't be forgotten.

In terms of our first XI, I think the only players that really need upgrading are Fred and McTominay. I would upgrade McTominay before Fred without question, but I think Ole will do the opposite. I'm sure he trusts McTominay more. This might not be completely factual, but I feel like Fred is usually the one that gets subbed when we're making changes to the midfield?
Yeah it feels like it. McTominay must have seen Ole taking a Ronaldos yoghurt from the fridge, I have no other plausible explanation why he is forced to play for 90minutes in 3 consecutive games just after coming back from an injury. Its madness. Fred isn't in awesome form since quite some time, and I have no issues with him being subbed off when it is needed or seems plausible. But today just wasn't such a day. If Ole really hooked him for the "mistake" that lead to the goal, he would be extremely stupid.

I wouldn't read too much in what Ole says, his words and actions don't match up. While he did say he likes all rounders, McFred are used as DM's, they rarely break the line and get forward, they take defensive sheeps when we attack. Also, our interest in Rice tells me otherwise.

Honestly cannot understand how Fred gets picked no matter what. He can have a 1 out of 10 performance and still be picked the next game without issues, it's maddening.
If there is any interest, remember it is coming from the same people who got is Donny van De Beek. I genuinely think, our interest in Rice stems more from the fact that he is a) british b) young c) upcoming talent d) Premier League proven e) supposedly a leader so the "right" character than it stems from the fact the we think, his skillset is needed for a plan that I am not able to see after 2 years of looking for it really really hard.

Thought he was playing well and I knew that being done on the half way line, at that was all people would be talking about. If it was at the edge of our box, I get it. Next like Felliani, people will be booing him and no doubt some idiots making racist remarks so social media. If people think we lost the game as a consequence of being bullied on the half way line, there was enough of the game to still win it.

Time for him to go and rebuild his career somewhere else......
It is a miserable world. I think, your outlook might be right, but I would really hate that.
 

YouknowNani

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He's a good player for pressing, snapping at peoples heels and winning the ball back high up the field, but unfortunately we attempt to play him as a DM or deep midfielder which he doesn't have the positional sense for. Nor does he have the strength or first tough to play a role that's supposed to protect the defence. He'd be ok if he had a solid DM behind him but we don't have that option other than Matic who Ole doesn't seem to play.

I've been one to back Fred even when he first arrived and couldn't get in the team, but at this point he needs to be dropped.
 
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Foxbatt

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He's a good player for pressing, snapping at peoples heels and winning the ball back high up the field, but unfortunately we attempt to play him as a DM or deep midfielder which he doesn't have the positional sense for. Nor does he have the strength or first tough to play a role that's supposed to protect the defence. He'd be ok if he had a solid DM behind him but we don't have that option other than Matic who Ole doesn't seem to play.

I've been one to back Fred even when he first arrived and couldn't get in the team, but at this point he needs to be dropped.
Yes at the heat of the moment I had a go at him too. Yes he was to blame for the goal. As he had two opportunities to stop the attack. he is not talented enough to play a passing game. He is not strong enough to provide any muscle. He is also not very quick. He does what he does, which is hustling and pressing and running non stop. When you partner him with McTominay who is as bad as him it becomes a disaster. It is a coaching issue for sure. I mean not today's goal but in general why he is so poor as our two full backs go bombing forward and always get caught up field, our CBs get dragged wide and Fred and Scot has to cover for the CBs then.
 

Jaykespeare88

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He wasn’t having a great game and then was terrible for their goal. He has a tough time because Mctominay is all over the place but he’s just so erratic.
My brother was saying today he is never in the place. Shocking positional awareness.
 

Levenstein

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Had a decent game. Great cross to Cavani - who should’ve scored.

Played some very nice passes forward and spreaded the ball.

Yes he was too weak and made maybe wrong decision before their goal, but he wasn’t only one at fault there.

And the most important thing - he is not a DM. Still he plays there and does decent job. But he shouldn’t play there. That is up to Ole.
He should be left mid in 433.
 

BlueHaze

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The amount of times he loses posession and gives the ball away with misplaced passes during a game is absolutely horrid. How in gods name he is being given starts ahead of Donny I do not know but I would never let this guy go anywhere near my starting XI.

Hanibal is better than this guy.
 

croadyman

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Like many have said if that is a Fernandinho he takes that yellow card and kills the counter attack
 

Kramer

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I cannot believe posters who are saying he had a decent game aside from the goal. It’s like people have completely forgotten what a half decent midfielder can do.

He was absolutely woeful again. He regularly screws up simple passes. Demari Gray absolutely walked past him in the 1st half also when De Gea made the 1 handed save.

The blame for this rests squarely on Ole’s shoulders though. I am not Ole out at all. But he needs to understand that McFred together simply cannot work. We need Pogba to play as a 6. Doesnt matter if he plays better further up the pitch. We need some quality in midfield. Donny and Matic need more mins as well instead of this headless chicken. If you can’t press as a team then one guy running around will do no good.

Makes me livid everytime I see Fred in a United shirt. He’s been that bad this season.
 

Kopral Jono

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I know Fred is an easy target to pick on and ultimately the buck stops at the manager, but to those who are saying that he played well yesterday: I'd like to have some of what you're smoking, please. As a holding midfielder playing for United a few tidy passes here and there are the barest of minimums. He offered feck all elsewhere and was absolutely atrocious again.
 

11101

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At this point, Fred is a scapegoat. A player that was bought for too much money, a player limited in his abilities but so vital to United. He struggles because he is asked to do things, he just isn't suited to and still manages to look better than McTominay. I don't want to deny that his form suffered quite a lot, he was way better a year or two ago, but today he was more than fine, one of not many trying to keep the ball on grass, increasing the tempo, not taking 8 touches before passing to the nearest team mate in sight. Of course he is upgradeable but I would upgrade a few others before him.
Nail on the head.

He's a technical player and they don't look as good to most fans as players who do a crunching tackle now and then. Upgradeable, but still our best centre midfielder.
 

Fortitude

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The problem with a lot of posts I'm seeing is Fred being condemned for something he isn't, and never should be for us.

If Fred is being used deep in midfield, that's the fault of the manager; if he's not your first line of defence in central midfield i.e. your runner and harrasser who proactively seeks the ball high up the pitch with a midfielder behind him sweeping up, he's being used incorrectly and mistakes are assured.

Fred is, by far, the best haranguing midfielder we have at the club. By far. That's almost exclusively because we have nobody else who can even play the role... which is why Fred is constantly and repeatedly selected, no matter what. Ole wants a player who is immediately in the face of the opposition and, theoretically, being an absolute pain in the arse to shrug off and get past. Theoretically, a high energy supporting midfielder then has the relatively simple job of being the second line of defence who comes in behind Fred and sweeps up the loose balls.

This is supposed to be McFred, and it worked decently enough last season, certainly not a PL-winning combination, but certainly one that both made sense and was most effective as a pairing. Unfortunately, Fred is losing more 50/50 battles this season; making more unforced errors and not proactively reading the play well, which means he rarely has a contingency in his head, which in turn leads to him looking baffled and ill-prepared when he loses out in the tackle, particularly in his positioning, which you see frequently with him being on the wrong side of the man he's challenging and constantly leads to him being broken on with said man then clean through midfield until he reaches the next point of resistance... which leads me onto McTominay.

I personally feel like McTominay has been rushed back into the team and is not fit, but if he is fit, then he's taken a massive step back from his best and is making life worse for Fred, who, by way of being the antithesis to McTominay in always showing for the ball and always being there to be counted (whether disastrous or successful), is taking the majority of the flack whilst not being supported or backed up by his so-called partner. McTominay is not sweeping up behind Fred; he is not being intuitive with his reading of the play, and worst of all, he is not showing for the ball or being in proximity when his partner - and the midfield - need him.

Fred is 5'6" and a featherweight who is built for agility and repeated stabs at the ball: a generic harrasser with no real complexity or caveat other than literally being too weak. McTominay is 6'4" and a cruiserweight, which means he's not amongst the most beastly units in the league, but he's more than able to hold his own and be the muscle in the majority of partnerships. The issue, however, is that he is no longer doing that and he is no longer aiding Fred or working with him like a partner is supposed to. This leads to Fred over-extending himself and having to do too much by himself. McTominay seems to fly under the radar most of the time whilst not being there for his partner - I see posts talking about him hiding when we're in possession, but really not many when we're out of possession where he's supposed to be shoring up the loose ends and is nowhere to be seen.

I've been an advocate of McFred being what we should be rolling out amongst our midfield grouping as the best of a bad bunch of combinations, but they are not working in tandem anymore and it's leading to so much more disarray than there should be in the centre of the pitch that it's costing us points and has legitimately become a tactical component in game plans against us.

McTominay does not account for Fred's barrage of unforced passing errors for simple, easy, short passes, however, and this is the area I find the most egregious with Fred. He was doing well enough in the game until he played a simple, short pass right into the path of the opposition who almost scored, and from there, he shrunk in confidence and started the predictable path towards the shakiness that's associative this season. For me, once Fred makes a big mistake, it plays too much on his mind and he tries overly hard to rectify it, which leads to him losing his composure and ups his headlessness to the point he makes those positional errors that see him beaten all ends up from basic 50/50's - with his overcommittment, he takes himself out of plays so easily and naively, which in turn, unsettles the whole team - it's not a coincidence we get more flappy as a unit in tune with Fred. Good or bad, his energy and state in-game is infectious.

More than him being beaten by Gray (twice) in 50/50's that were in his favour, the biggest issue is that a player raised in South American football, with the masters of spoiling midfield exchanges that are not in their favour, did not have the wherewithal and speed of thought to take his man out with a professional foul. You lose your man, twice, like that, and you have to hold your hands up and take the hit for the team, it's as simple as that. It's a concern that someone whose specialist role is spoiling and breaking up play does not have that awareness in his game.

Fred's a funny one for me, because for all his faults, it should never be forgotten that he *never* hides; *never* shirks his duties, even if he fails at them. From the midfielders we have, it's not a coincidence he and Pogba are there to be shot at, as they both always there to be fired at. Matic hides, McTominay does, too, and Van de Beek, we haven't seen enough of in the PL to assess. I can understand the frustration and ire directed at Fred, so long as it's contextual - he is not playing in a vacuum, and is being failed by others out there, which is being swept under the rug. Even on the goal, others could have prevented it, but didn't. Sure, it's Fred's mess, but as a team, we flapped with none attentive enough to just deal with a situation that had gone awry.

Me personally, I think McFred have run their course, and also think we need to move away from the runner, as the role *always* requires backing up and we don’t provide that (our runner is by himself and not backed up, making a lot of his work a redundancy), so we might as well move away from it entirely. If there's no need for a runner, you then have to look at our midfielders in terms of completeness and basic levels of competence across a broad spectrum. If that's the case, then the slate should be clean. Our one organic partnership has petered out, and is actually detrimental now, so a new approach and experiments with personnel are a must.

Even at their very best, McFred are no great shakes, so waiting on the pair of them to reconnect is not worth it and could well see us out of the title race, if you believe we're in it in the first place.

Fred's been a mixed bag, but he has also been hung out to dry; he is one cog in a machine who needs others to fulfil their roles and he simply is not getting that this season.
 

NZT-One

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The problem with a lot of posts I'm seeing is Fred being condemned for something he isn't, and never should be for us.

If Fred is being used deep in midfield, that's the fault of the manager; if he's not your first line of defence in central midfield i.e. your runner and harrasser who proactively seeks the ball high up the pitch with a midfielder behind him sweeping up, he's being used incorrectly and mistakes are assured.

Fred is, by far, the best haranguing midfielder we have at the club. By far. That's almost exclusively because we have nobody else who can even play the role... which is why Fred is constantly and repeatedly selected, no matter what. Ole wants a player who is immediately in the face of the opposition and, theoretically, being an absolute pain in the arse to shrug off and get past. Theoretically, a high energy supporting midfielder then has the relatively simple job of being the second line of defence who comes in behind Fred and sweeps up the loose balls.

This is supposed to be McFred, and it worked decently enough last season, certainly not a PL-winning combination, but certainly one that both made sense and was most effective as a pairing. Unfortunately, Fred is losing more 50/50 battles this season; making more unforced errors and not proactively reading the play well, which means he rarely has a contingency in his head, which in turn leads to him looking baffled and ill-prepared when he loses out in the tackle, particularly in his positioning, which you see frequently with him being on the wrong side of the man he's challenging and constantly leads to him being broken on with said man then clean through midfield until he reaches the next point of resistance... which leads me onto McTominay.

I personally feel like McTominay has been rushed back into the team and is not fit, but if he is fit, then he's taken a massive step back from his best and is making life worse for Fred, who, by way of being the antithesis to McTominay in always showing for the ball and always being there to be counted (whether disastrous or successful), is taking the majority of the flack whilst not being supported or backed up by his so-called partner. McTominay is not sweeping up behind Fred; he is not being intuitive with his reading of the play, and worst of all, he is not showing for the ball or being in proximity when his partner - and the midfield - need him.

Fred is 5'6" and a featherweight who is built for agility and repeated stabs at the ball: a generic harrasser with no real complexity or caveat other than literally being too weak. McTominay is 6'4" and a cruiserweight, which means he's not amongst the most beastly units in the league, but he's more than able to hold his own and be the muscle in the majority of partnerships. The issue, however, is that he is no longer doing that and he is no longer aiding Fred or working with him like a partner is supposed to. This leads to Fred over-extending himself and having to do too much by himself. McTominay seems to fly under the radar most of the time whilst not being there for his partner - I see posts talking about him hiding when we're in possession, but really not many when we're out of possession where he's supposed to be shoring up the loose ends and is nowhere to be seen.

I've been an advocate of McFred being what we should be rolling out amongst our midfield grouping as the best of a bad bunch of combinations, but they are not working in tandem anymore and it's leading to so much more disarray than there should be in the centre of the pitch that it's costing us points and has legitimately become a tactical component in game plans against us.

McTominay does not account for Fred's barrage of unforced passing errors for simple, easy, short passes, however, and this is the area I find the most egregious with Fred. He was doing well enough in the game until he played a simple, short pass right into the path of the opposition who almost scored, and from there, he shrunk in confidence and started the predictable path towards the shakiness that's associative this season. For me, once Fred makes a big mistake, it plays too much on his mind and he tries overly hard to rectify it, which leads to him losing his composure and ups his headlessness to the point he makes those positional errors that see him beaten all ends up from basic 50/50's - with his overcommittment, he takes himself out of plays so easily and naively, which in turn, unsettles the whole team - it's not a coincidence we get more flappy as a unit in tune with Fred. Good or bad, his energy and state in-game is infectious.

More than him being beaten by Gray (twice) in 50/50's that were in his favour, the biggest issue is that a player raised in South American football, with the masters of spoiling midfield exchanges that are not in their favour, did not have the wherewithal and speed of thought to take his man out with a professional foul. You lose your man, twice, like that, and you have to hold your hands up and take the hit for the team, it's as simple as that. It's a concern that someone whose specialist role is spoiling and breaking up play does not have that awareness in his game.

Fred's a funny one for me, because for all his faults, it should never be forgotten that he *never* hides; *never* shirks his duties, even if he fails at them. From the midfielders we have, it's not a coincidence he and Pogba are there to be shot at, as they both always there to be fired at. Matic hides, McTominay does, too, and Van de Beek, we haven't seen enough of in the PL to assess. I can understand the frustration and ire directed at Fred, so long as it's contextual - he is not playing in a vacuum, and is being failed by others out there, which is being swept under the rug. Even on the goal, others could have prevented it, but didn't. Sure, it's Fred's mess, but as a team, we flapped with none attentive enough to just deal with a situation that had gone awry.

Me personally, I think McFred have run their course, and also think we need to move away from the runner, as the role *always* requires backing up and we don’t provide that (our runner is by himself and not backed up, making a lot of his work a redundancy), so we might as well move away from it entirely. If there's no need for a runner, you then have to look at our midfielders in terms of completeness and basic levels of competence across a broad spectrum. If that's the case, then the slate should be clean. Our one organic partnership has petered out, and is actually detrimental now, so a new approach and experiments with personnel are a must.

Even at their very best, McFred are no great shakes, so waiting on the pair of them to reconnect is not worth it and could well see us out of the title race, if you believe we're in it in the first place.

Fred's been a mixed bag, but he has also been hung out to dry; he is one cog in a machine who needs others to fulfil their roles and he simply is not getting that this season.
Very well written, 100% agree.
 

Litch

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The problem with a lot of posts I'm seeing is Fred being condemned for something he isn't, and never should be for us.

If Fred is being used deep in midfield, that's the fault of the manager; if he's not your first line of defence in central midfield i.e. your runner and harrasser who proactively seeks the ball high up the pitch with a midfielder behind him sweeping up, he's being used incorrectly and mistakes are assured.

Fred is, by far, the best haranguing midfielder we have at the club. By far. That's almost exclusively because we have nobody else who can even play the role... which is why Fred is constantly and repeatedly selected, no matter what. Ole wants a player who is immediately in the face of the opposition and, theoretically, being an absolute pain in the arse to shrug off and get past. Theoretically, a high energy supporting midfielder then has the relatively simple job of being the second line of defence who comes in behind Fred and sweeps up the loose balls.

This is supposed to be McFred, and it worked decently enough last season, certainly not a PL-winning combination, but certainly one that both made sense and was most effective as a pairing. Unfortunately, Fred is losing more 50/50 battles this season; making more unforced errors and not proactively reading the play well, which means he rarely has a contingency in his head, which in turn leads to him looking baffled and ill-prepared when he loses out in the tackle, particularly in his positioning, which you see frequently with him being on the wrong side of the man he's challenging and constantly leads to him being broken on with said man then clean through midfield until he reaches the next point of resistance... which leads me onto McTominay.

I personally feel like McTominay has been rushed back into the team and is not fit, but if he is fit, then he's taken a massive step back from his best and is making life worse for Fred, who, by way of being the antithesis to McTominay in always showing for the ball and always being there to be counted (whether disastrous or successful), is taking the majority of the flack whilst not being supported or backed up by his so-called partner. McTominay is not sweeping up behind Fred; he is not being intuitive with his reading of the play, and worst of all, he is not showing for the ball or being in proximity when his partner - and the midfield - need him.

Fred is 5'6" and a featherweight who is built for agility and repeated stabs at the ball: a generic harrasser with no real complexity or caveat other than literally being too weak. McTominay is 6'4" and a cruiserweight, which means he's not amongst the most beastly units in the league, but he's more than able to hold his own and be the muscle in the majority of partnerships. The issue, however, is that he is no longer doing that and he is no longer aiding Fred or working with him like a partner is supposed to. This leads to Fred over-extending himself and having to do too much by himself. McTominay seems to fly under the radar most of the time whilst not being there for his partner - I see posts talking about him hiding when we're in possession, but really not many when we're out of possession where he's supposed to be shoring up the loose ends and is nowhere to be seen.

I've been an advocate of McFred being what we should be rolling out amongst our midfield grouping as the best of a bad bunch of combinations, but they are not working in tandem anymore and it's leading to so much more disarray than there should be in the centre of the pitch that it's costing us points and has legitimately become a tactical component in game plans against us.

McTominay does not account for Fred's barrage of unforced passing errors for simple, easy, short passes, however, and this is the area I find the most egregious with Fred. He was doing well enough in the game until he played a simple, short pass right into the path of the opposition who almost scored, and from there, he shrunk in confidence and started the predictable path towards the shakiness that's associative this season. For me, once Fred makes a big mistake, it plays too much on his mind and he tries overly hard to rectify it, which leads to him losing his composure and ups his headlessness to the point he makes those positional errors that see him beaten all ends up from basic 50/50's - with his overcommittment, he takes himself out of plays so easily and naively, which in turn, unsettles the whole team - it's not a coincidence we get more flappy as a unit in tune with Fred. Good or bad, his energy and state in-game is infectious.

More than him being beaten by Gray (twice) in 50/50's that were in his favour, the biggest issue is that a player raised in South American football, with the masters of spoiling midfield exchanges that are not in their favour, did not have the wherewithal and speed of thought to take his man out with a professional foul. You lose your man, twice, like that, and you have to hold your hands up and take the hit for the team, it's as simple as that. It's a concern that someone whose specialist role is spoiling and breaking up play does not have that awareness in his game.

Fred's a funny one for me, because for all his faults, it should never be forgotten that he *never* hides; *never* shirks his duties, even if he fails at them. From the midfielders we have, it's not a coincidence he and Pogba are there to be shot at, as they both always there to be fired at. Matic hides, McTominay does, too, and Van de Beek, we haven't seen enough of in the PL to assess. I can understand the frustration and ire directed at Fred, so long as it's contextual - he is not playing in a vacuum, and is being failed by others out there, which is being swept under the rug. Even on the goal, others could have prevented it, but didn't. Sure, it's Fred's mess, but as a team, we flapped with none attentive enough to just deal with a situation that had gone awry.

Me personally, I think McFred have run their course, and also think we need to move away from the runner, as the role *always* requires backing up and we don’t provide that (our runner is by himself and not backed up, making a lot of his work a redundancy), so we might as well move away from it entirely. If there's no need for a runner, you then have to look at our midfielders in terms of completeness and basic levels of competence across a broad spectrum. If that's the case, then the slate should be clean. Our one organic partnership has petered out, and is actually detrimental now, so a new approach and experiments with personnel are a must.

Even at their very best, McFred are no great shakes, so waiting on the pair of them to reconnect is not worth it and could well see us out of the title race, if you believe we're in it in the first place.

Fred's been a mixed bag, but he has also been hung out to dry; he is one cog in a machine who needs others to fulfil their roles and he simply is not getting that this season.
One of the best observations I've read on here for a long time. Fair and balanced. It will be interesting what happens over the next few weeks as Rashford coming back into contention means decisions being made about where Pogs plays. If he is to play in CM, will be interesting to see which 'cog' works best with him. My issue is when it comes to be left out to dry, Pogs is one of the biggest culprits. That's exactly whoever plays with him will feel. Ironically, Pogs might feel the same about Bruno playing, like he's a false 9.....
 

jem

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The problem with Fred is that you just can't legislate for his sudden, baffling moments of ineptitude. In some ways, I much prefer him to McTominay: he's much more available for the pass, and he looks more progressive when he drives forward with the ball, but then, inevitably, he will do something that just has you shaking your head, wondering how the feck we ever spent 50 million on that.
 

Pickle85

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Nail on the head.

He's a technical player and they don't look as good to most fans as players who do a crunching tackle now and then. Upgradeable, but still our best centre midfielder.
Um...Fred. A technical player?! In what way? He's poor with the ball at his feet, distribution is not good for a cm, not a good dribbler. In what way is he technical?
 

Ali Dia

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You can really tell which posters actually think about football as a team sport in this thread and which fans just need a punching bag every time something bad happens on the pitch. Fred misplaced about 3 passes all game. He was firing crisp passes forward off either foot. “Pathetic” “can’t pass” He sets our whole tempo in a match we dominate and he makes a mistake on the half way line with 5 players behind him. Then he goes off and our play reverts to long ball and kitchen sink approach. If Fred doesn’t press or win the ball in the middle or If he doesn’t set the tempo who else does? He’s our best/only workhorse midfielder. That’s part of the problem.

The problem with a lot of posts I'm seeing is Fred being condemned for something he isn't, and never should be for us.

If Fred is being used deep in midfield, that's the fault of the manager; if he's not your first line of defence in central midfield i.e. your runner and harrasser who proactively seeks the ball high up the pitch with a midfielder behind him sweeping up, he's being used incorrectly and mistakes are assured.

Fred is, by far, the best haranguing midfielder we have at the club. By far. That's almost exclusively because we have nobody else who can even play the role... which is why Fred is constantly and repeatedly selected, no matter what. Ole wants a player who is immediately in the face of the opposition and, theoretically, being an absolute pain in the arse to shrug off and get past. Theoretically, a high energy supporting midfielder then has the relatively simple job of being the second line of defence who comes in behind Fred and sweeps up the loose balls.

This is supposed to be McFred, and it worked decently enough last season, certainly not a PL-winning combination, but certainly one that both made sense and was most effective as a pairing. Unfortunately, Fred is losing more 50/50 battles this season; making more unforced errors and not proactively reading the play well, which means he rarely has a contingency in his head, which in turn leads to him looking baffled and ill-prepared when he loses out in the tackle, particularly in his positioning, which you see frequently with him being on the wrong side of the man he's challenging and constantly leads to him being broken on with said man then clean through midfield until he reaches the next point of resistance... which leads me onto McTominay.

I personally feel like McTominay has been rushed back into the team and is not fit, but if he is fit, then he's taken a massive step back from his best and is making life worse for Fred, who, by way of being the antithesis to McTominay in always showing for the ball and always being there to be counted (whether disastrous or successful), is taking the majority of the flack whilst not being supported or backed up by his so-called partner. McTominay is not sweeping up behind Fred; he is not being intuitive with his reading of the play, and worst of all, he is not showing for the ball or being in proximity when his partner - and the midfield - need him.

Fred is 5'6" and a featherweight who is built for agility and repeated stabs at the ball: a generic harrasser with no real complexity or caveat other than literally being too weak. McTominay is 6'4" and a cruiserweight, which means he's not amongst the most beastly units in the league, but he's more than able to hold his own and be the muscle in the majority of partnerships. The issue, however, is that he is no longer doing that and he is no longer aiding Fred or working with him like a partner is supposed to. This leads to Fred over-extending himself and having to do too much by himself. McTominay seems to fly under the radar most of the time whilst not being there for his partner - I see posts talking about him hiding when we're in possession, but really not many when we're out of possession where he's supposed to be shoring up the loose ends and is nowhere to be seen.

I've been an advocate of McFred being what we should be rolling out amongst our midfield grouping as the best of a bad bunch of combinations, but they are not working in tandem anymore and it's leading to so much more disarray than there should be in the centre of the pitch that it's costing us points and has legitimately become a tactical component in game plans against us.

McTominay does not account for Fred's barrage of unforced passing errors for simple, easy, short passes, however, and this is the area I find the most egregious with Fred. He was doing well enough in the game until he played a simple, short pass right into the path of the opposition who almost scored, and from there, he shrunk in confidence and started the predictable path towards the shakiness that's associative this season. For me, once Fred makes a big mistake, it plays too much on his mind and he tries overly hard to rectify it, which leads to him losing his composure and ups his headlessness to the point he makes those positional errors that see him beaten all ends up from basic 50/50's - with his overcommittment, he takes himself out of plays so easily and naively, which in turn, unsettles the whole team - it's not a coincidence we get more flappy as a unit in tune with Fred. Good or bad, his energy and state in-game is infectious.

More than him being beaten by Gray (twice) in 50/50's that were in his favour, the biggest issue is that a player raised in South American football, with the masters of spoiling midfield exchanges that are not in their favour, did not have the wherewithal and speed of thought to take his man out with a professional foul. You lose your man, twice, like that, and you have to hold your hands up and take the hit for the team, it's as simple as that. It's a concern that someone whose specialist role is spoiling and breaking up play does not have that awareness in his game.

Fred's a funny one for me, because for all his faults, it should never be forgotten that he *never* hides; *never* shirks his duties, even if he fails at them. From the midfielders we have, it's not a coincidence he and Pogba are there to be shot at, as they both always there to be fired at. Matic hides, McTominay does, too, and Van de Beek, we haven't seen enough of in the PL to assess. I can understand the frustration and ire directed at Fred, so long as it's contextual - he is not playing in a vacuum, and is being failed by others out there, which is being swept under the rug. Even on the goal, others could have prevented it, but didn't. Sure, it's Fred's mess, but as a team, we flapped with none attentive enough to just deal with a situation that had gone awry.

Me personally, I think McFred have run their course, and also think we need to move away from the runner, as the role *always* requires backing up and we don’t provide that (our runner is by himself and not backed up, making a lot of his work a redundancy), so we might as well move away from it entirely. If there's no need for a runner, you then have to look at our midfielders in terms of completeness and basic levels of competence across a broad spectrum. If that's the case, then the slate should be clean. Our one organic partnership has petered out, and is actually detrimental now, so a new approach and experiments with personnel are a must.

Even at their very best, McFred are no great shakes, so waiting on the pair of them to reconnect is not worth it and could well see us out of the title race, if you believe we're in it in the first place.

Fred's been a mixed bag, but he has also been hung out to dry; he is one cog in a machine who needs others to fulfil their roles and he simply is not getting that this season.
Class post. 100% agree.
 
Last edited:

golden_blunder

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It’s funny, we went from him having a thread about 1 cross he once did to back to being a shitehawk again
 

11101

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Um...Fred. A technical player?! In what way? He's poor with the ball at his feet, distribution is not good for a cm, not a good dribbler. In what way is he technical?
No, he's not poor with the ball at his feet. He makes a lot of mistakes but he is one of our best at control and quick passing.
 

CloneMC16

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Messages
245
The problem with a lot of posts I'm seeing is Fred being condemned for something he isn't, and never should be for us.

If Fred is being used deep in midfield, that's the fault of the manager; if he's not your first line of defence in central midfield i.e. your runner and harrasser who proactively seeks the ball high up the pitch with a midfielder behind him sweeping up, he's being used incorrectly and mistakes are assured.

Fred is, by far, the best haranguing midfielder we have at the club. By far. That's almost exclusively because we have nobody else who can even play the role... which is why Fred is constantly and repeatedly selected, no matter what. Ole wants a player who is immediately in the face of the opposition and, theoretically, being an absolute pain in the arse to shrug off and get past. Theoretically, a high energy supporting midfielder then has the relatively simple job of being the second line of defence who comes in behind Fred and sweeps up the loose balls.

This is supposed to be McFred, and it worked decently enough last season, certainly not a PL-winning combination, but certainly one that both made sense and was most effective as a pairing. Unfortunately, Fred is losing more 50/50 battles this season; making more unforced errors and not proactively reading the play well, which means he rarely has a contingency in his head, which in turn leads to him looking baffled and ill-prepared when he loses out in the tackle, particularly in his positioning, which you see frequently with him being on the wrong side of the man he's challenging and constantly leads to him being broken on with said man then clean through midfield until he reaches the next point of resistance... which leads me onto McTominay.

I personally feel like McTominay has been rushed back into the team and is not fit, but if he is fit, then he's taken a massive step back from his best and is making life worse for Fred, who, by way of being the antithesis to McTominay in always showing for the ball and always being there to be counted (whether disastrous or successful), is taking the majority of the flack whilst not being supported or backed up by his so-called partner. McTominay is not sweeping up behind Fred; he is not being intuitive with his reading of the play, and worst of all, he is not showing for the ball or being in proximity when his partner - and the midfield - need him.

Fred is 5'6" and a featherweight who is built for agility and repeated stabs at the ball: a generic harrasser with no real complexity or caveat other than literally being too weak. McTominay is 6'4" and a cruiserweight, which means he's not amongst the most beastly units in the league, but he's more than able to hold his own and be the muscle in the majority of partnerships. The issue, however, is that he is no longer doing that and he is no longer aiding Fred or working with him like a partner is supposed to. This leads to Fred over-extending himself and having to do too much by himself. McTominay seems to fly under the radar most of the time whilst not being there for his partner - I see posts talking about him hiding when we're in possession, but really not many when we're out of possession where he's supposed to be shoring up the loose ends and is nowhere to be seen.

I've been an advocate of McFred being what we should be rolling out amongst our midfield grouping as the best of a bad bunch of combinations, but they are not working in tandem anymore and it's leading to so much more disarray than there should be in the centre of the pitch that it's costing us points and has legitimately become a tactical component in game plans against us.

McTominay does not account for Fred's barrage of unforced passing errors for simple, easy, short passes, however, and this is the area I find the most egregious with Fred. He was doing well enough in the game until he played a simple, short pass right into the path of the opposition who almost scored, and from there, he shrunk in confidence and started the predictable path towards the shakiness that's associative this season. For me, once Fred makes a big mistake, it plays too much on his mind and he tries overly hard to rectify it, which leads to him losing his composure and ups his headlessness to the point he makes those positional errors that see him beaten all ends up from basic 50/50's - with his overcommittment, he takes himself out of plays so easily and naively, which in turn, unsettles the whole team - it's not a coincidence we get more flappy as a unit in tune with Fred. Good or bad, his energy and state in-game is infectious.

More than him being beaten by Gray (twice) in 50/50's that were in his favour, the biggest issue is that a player raised in South American football, with the masters of spoiling midfield exchanges that are not in their favour, did not have the wherewithal and speed of thought to take his man out with a professional foul. You lose your man, twice, like that, and you have to hold your hands up and take the hit for the team, it's as simple as that. It's a concern that someone whose specialist role is spoiling and breaking up play does not have that awareness in his game.

Fred's a funny one for me, because for all his faults, it should never be forgotten that he *never* hides; *never* shirks his duties, even if he fails at them. From the midfielders we have, it's not a coincidence he and Pogba are there to be shot at, as they both always there to be fired at. Matic hides, McTominay does, too, and Van de Beek, we haven't seen enough of in the PL to assess. I can understand the frustration and ire directed at Fred, so long as it's contextual - he is not playing in a vacuum, and is being failed by others out there, which is being swept under the rug. Even on the goal, others could have prevented it, but didn't. Sure, it's Fred's mess, but as a team, we flapped with none attentive enough to just deal with a situation that had gone awry.

Me personally, I think McFred have run their course, and also think we need to move away from the runner, as the role *always* requires backing up and we don’t provide that (our runner is by himself and not backed up, making a lot of his work a redundancy), so we might as well move away from it entirely. If there's no need for a runner, you then have to look at our midfielders in terms of completeness and basic levels of competence across a broad spectrum. If that's the case, then the slate should be clean. Our one organic partnership has petered out, and is actually detrimental now, so a new approach and experiments with personnel are a must.

Even at their very best, McFred are no great shakes, so waiting on the pair of them to reconnect is not worth it and could well see us out of the title race, if you believe we're in it in the first place.

Fred's been a mixed bag, but he has also been hung out to dry; he is one cog in a machine who needs others to fulfil their roles and he simply is not getting that this season.
As others have said, 10/10 post. I see why Fred is complained about, but I agree with your analysis that he isn't being helped at times. I also believe that as soon as he makes a mistake, it will be jumped on immediately. People are waiting for it and will moan when it happens. If you're trying to unlock a low block, someone is going to give the ball away at some point. Unless every pass you make is backwards.

If McFred is scrapped, we need Matic to play. Fred shouldn't be playing CDM, but he does the job for us. It's him or Matic. McTominay isn't a CDM and neither is Donny. This is mainly on Ole not buying a CDM. It was the most important signing we needed, and it didn't happen.

One of the best observations I've read on here for a long time. Fair and balanced. It will be interesting what happens over the next few weeks as Rashford coming back into contention means decisions being made about where Pogs plays. If he is to play in CM, will be interesting to see which 'cog' works best with him. My issue is when it comes to be left out to dry, Pogs is one of the biggest culprits. That's exactly whoever plays with him will feel. Ironically, Pogs might feel the same about Bruno playing, like he's a false 9.....
Pogba will play in midfield or he's on the bench. Unless Ole tries to play Rashford on the right again. That would be a terrible decision. I don't like Pogba in our double pivot. I get why people want him there, but it's not where he's going to be consistent. We don't look defensively solid with McFred, but we've seen worse. We saw Pogba and McTominay against Villarreal. We also saw Pogba and Fred against Wolves. Both were horror shows. I can't see Ole playing Pogba and Matic against any higher quality team.

You can really tell which posters actually think about football as a team sport in this thread and which fans just need a punching bag every time something bad happens on the pitch. Fred misplaced about 3 passes all game. He was firing crisp passes forward off either foot. “Pathetic” “can’t pass” He sets our whole tempo in a match we dominate and he makes a mistake on the half way line with 5 players behind him. Then he goes off and our play reverts to long ball and kitchen sink approach. If Fred doesn’t press or win the ball in the middle or If he doesn’t set the tempo who else does? He’s our best/only workhorse midfielder. That’s part of the problem.
It baffles me when people say this. He played multiple progressive passes in the game and most of our fan base ignore it. His progressive passing stats are much better than McTominay's and Donny's. He also put a quality cross in on his right, and Cavani didn't score. As soon as he gives one away, "he can't pass" posts always show up. Fred was getting the ball forward and quickly in the first half. We had the vast majority of the ball and I think he did well with it in possession.

It's a huge problem. He's not a great player, but he's still important to the team. He continues to play, because we don't have anybody else that can do the same thing. That's on the club for not buying in an area that we desperately needed.
 
Last edited:

Litch

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As others have said, 10/10 post. I see why Fred is complained about, but I agree with your analysis that he isn't being helped at times. I also believe that as soon as he makes a mistake, it will be jumped on immediately. People are waiting for it and will moan when it happens. If you're trying to unlock a low block, someone is going to give the ball away at some point. Unless every pass you make is backwards.

If McFred is scrapped, we need Matic to play. Fred shouldn't be playing CDM, but he does the job for us. It's him or Matic. McTominay isn't a CDM and neither is Donny. This is mainly on Ole not buying a CDM. It was the most important signing we needed, and it didn't happen.


Pogba will play in midfield or he's on the bench. Unless Ole tries to play Rashford on the right again. That would be a terrible decision. I don't like Pogba in our double pivot. I get why people want him there, but it's not where he's going to be consistent. We don't look defensively solid with McFred, but we've seen worse. We saw Pogba and McTominay against Villarreal. We also saw Pogba and Fred against Wolves. Both were horror shows. I can't see Ole playing Pogba and Matic against any higher quality team.


It baffles me when people say this. He played multiple progressive passes in the game and most of our fan base ignore it. His progressive passing stats are much better than McTominay's and Donny's. He also put a quality cross in with his right and Cavani wasted the chance. As soon as he gives one away, "he can't pass" posts always show up. Fred was getting the ball forward and quickly in the first half. We had the vast majority of the ball and I think he did well with it in possession.

It's a huge problem. He's not a great player, but he's still important to the team. He continues to play, because we don't have anybody else that can do the same thing. That's on the club for not buying in an area that we desperately needed.
Agree with most of that. The thing is I'm not sure why the barometer is that he has to be great. Not sure either why he has to be compared to the best CMDs either or the best previous midfield either. We don't offer the same comparisons to other players including the manager. The club I'm sure will resolve the issue and it will be interesting to see if it resolves the problem....
 

Pickle85

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No, he's not poor with the ball at his feet. He makes a lot of mistakes but he is one of our best at control and quick passing.
I think we've been watching different players. This is genuinely baffling to me. One of the best at control and quick passing?!