Agreed. Carrick and Fletcher are poster boys for this treatment because a player isn't what certain fan elements want him to be - their good traits and usefulness are ignored for a fantasy in the fan's head.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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That where we disagree imo.
And it's nothing to do with Keane, Scholes, Carrick or whoever. And no Carrick was not getting the same treatment, Carrick was a midfielder who could do the basics impeccably and early was held to more scrutiny because he was not Roy Keane, but never because he was not good enough imo.
And re McT, many would say just as Fred he is and has been used as something he is not, so shouldn't the same leeway be applied? But this supposed playing out of position to both of them has nothing to do with how awful they have been, both of them have consistently demonstrated poor basic passing, ball control, shooting, and decision making. Something that imo, should never be in question for a midfielder at Manchester United.
Now it comes to the fact that, I do think shocking is the right word, you probably think that many of the showing we have seen are not as bad as I think or describe them. But keep in mind we are a team that fights for a spot between 4 and 10th place, and very often our players have looked as absolute amateurs.
That's a rewrite of events.
Fred is a very all round player. He's not "shocking" in any aspect of the game. If he was, he wouldn't start for Brazil.
Imo it really isn't. Carrick came in and in his first season we won the PL, him playing regularly. Yes maybe he was not appreciated enough, but his ability was never in question, and you have to keep in mind the era in which it happened. There was no Barcelona the dominat and Busquets, he came in at a time where Keane was very fresh in the memory. Nowadays, you get to see a player like Jorginho being nominated for the Balon d'Or for example.
As I replied to the other poster, I think he is. And that argument about Brazil is total nonsense, as someone already mentioned Brazil even had another Fred guy who played regularly for them, do you even remember him? I do he played for Lyon I think meant very little whether he should play for Manchester United.
Carrick was absolutely rinsed for not being good enough in his early days.
Where I highlighted is the difference. With Fred I can see a good player there, if he's in a position or system that suits him. Same with AWB, Lindelof, Pogba or any of our other usual scapegoats. Maybe we don't and will never play that way, but they are still good players.
With McTominay I just don't see what he's especially good at.
I don't remember it that way to be honest, and I was 14-15 at the time. He was always an excellent midfielder, rinsed is a word i would use for the Flethcer treatment for example/
I guess it's down to expectations and I can imagine, what a certain fan expect the team can develop and play. I understand fans and their thinking behind the press and aggressive play, but imo there is no way to play football and win the important trophies and mask some of the deficits Fred has. I understand that he doesn't need to be Paul Scholes or Carrick, but his bottom level is truly shocking, again IMO that is. You clearly disagree.
Nothing, he excels in feck all by what I expect from a Manchester United midfielder. He is more physical than Fred, a better ball carrier and probably a better dribbler, in the same time, worse passer, lazier probably and if I go into details, IMO they even it out, which leaves us in a sorry place CM wise.
Carrick was in fact beaten up pretty badly United supporters in his early days with United, but I thought most of it was unfair. He got away with a pk decision against Spurs in 2009 or so, and despite the decision going United's way he took a fair amount of heat from United supporters for winning the undeserved pk.
Of the bolded bit, the first part is true but the second definitely isn't. Even today I think we acknowledge that whilst he was part of a very successful team and that it's unfair to judge his performances when we wasn't a team that controlled the game through midfield, it's still very fair to criticise that he didn't have the ability to raise his game or control things on his own terms (pressed easy, could get overrun etc). I think that's why there are more than a few, who rate Fletcher in that short lived 18 month period where he probably had a highest peak than Carrick, in terms of influence of the game, which is arguably just as important as ability.
There's probably a middle ground here. I don't think that Fred is the long term answer to the midfield question for a side with aspirations to dominate the league and Europe (though he is surely good enough for a squad role) but he's also not a poor player either. I love the energy he provides and do think he'll improve under Ralph. How much he can up his game remains to be seen. I suspect he'll need replacing but he's not our biggest concern by some way.
that’s a fair take. He is not as bad as some fans say about him. His energy level is high and is a player you want when our tactics are built on pressing. He is slightly above average for me and surely has a future at united. As a starter? Surely not. If pogba renews and we go and get a defensive midfielder next year, which I think we should, then his role would be relegated to a rotation player. Even if pogba leaves, i’d say we’d need to sign 2 CMs then (Especially if vdb’s role remains as is).
yep. As with most polarized opinions, the answer lies in the middle. I love watching Fred when he’s on his game, but I think he shouldn’t be starting every single game. His energy and pressing should be used in the bigger/tougher game, with more technical players against the smaller teams. Kinda like how Fergie used to use Park
I think you are wrong, he was the mainstay in midfield in a CL and multiple PL title winning teams, he was also the CM who held whatever there was in midfielder in our 2013 PL win, with second most appearances after RVP. Yes we never were the possession oriented team, but Carrick played in midfield with Paul Scholes who could not tackle to save his life, and pretty much held the midfield line and controlled the flow through dictating play when we SAF decided to do so. Carrick was easy to press? I really don't remember it as such, he was one of the most cultured midfielder in the game, and the best in the league at what he did without a doubt, and overrun is something that was always going to happen, when your midfield partner was firstly Scholes (which I loved but was never someone that you would count to defend), Anderson and Tom Cleverley. And Fletcher peak 18 month period has nothing to do with how good Carrick might have been, Fletch was exceptional in that time. I remember how devastated I was with the CL suspension and most of United fans as well.
From what I remember, a lot of the criticism towards Carrick came down to him not being Keane i.e., a combative midfielder able to break up play. It was quite ironic because it was simplifying Keane's ability to dictate play, and also underplaying Carrick's excellent passing range, not to mention his defensive work, which became more apparent a few years later.
I certainly see some parallels with that situation now for Fred, and also some other squad players (notably Lindelof). We have a tendency to write off players as crap because we have a tendency to pigeon-hole them into not being the type of player we expect them to be, and then simultaneously overlook the good qualities they add that we didn't have before.
It's further ironic I guess because we were pining for a Keane-like player after Carrick, and Fred is probably the first proper box-to-box one we've had since (unless I'm missing someone?).
That's not to say he's perfect of course - I agree with you that the sort of player he is means he works best in a system.
Norwich 0:1 Man Utd
Unbelievable today I thought.
Excellent.
Player of the season so far.
It’s slim pickings to be totally fair. Currently between Fred DDG and Ronaldo
It’s slim pickings to be totally fair. Currently between Fred DDG and Ronaldo
Best player outside of De Gea, has benefitted the most from Rangnicks ideas for sure, hopefully he keeps up this form
He showed some good skill and creativity today in addition to the fighting qualities.
He stood out. McTominay was also pretty good. They were our best outfield players by a clear margin.
He stood out. McTominay was also pretty good. They were our best outfield players by a clear margin.
Never looked remotely tired.
Best player besides De Gea.
Very good again. Absolute machine. Runs and runs and runs. How players like Rashford can look that much worse physically is mystifying.
Probably the best game he and McTominay have played together. It's a shame everyone else was not at the races
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Joint motm with ddg.
Brilliant today.
Brilliant today.
Need to get him further forward, created two good chances today
Such a hardworking player, he is everywhere and all over the pitch.
Thought he struggled a bit for the first 10 minutes, grew into the game after that and did well.
Think this helps him given how lazy everyone else looks in comparison
He can press and press and press.
Energizer bunny
McFred is back! But, our attack is dreadful! Ronaldo should be benched next game.
Did really well again. I have been one of his biggest critics but recently he's been a big plus for us. Nicked the ball a couple of times in instances that should have led to goals.
Want to see him playing higher up the pitch. Superb again 
If he can carry on this form he's a brilliant player for us.
First half kinda okay, second half was amazing, together with De Gea our best player
Called this for ages. Easily the first midfielder name on the team sheet.
Scott however I think brings nothing to the table, needs upgrading urgently.
Scott however I think brings nothing to the table, needs upgrading urgently.
Aye, not to mention his passing at the end of the game was also spot on.
The way he won the free kick near the box was something that fast wingers offer. Brilliant watch.
Without Fred in the middle we'd be in trouble.
Unbelievable energy from him.
Unbelievable energy from him.
Yeah, Scott was Pogba level tackling.
He is providing everything we need in a central midfielder: great defensive and forward contributions. The sacking of Solskjaer has really freed him up in the team.
19 tackles and 12 interceptions in 5 games. That is a defensive contribution of 6.2 tackles and interceptions per game, which is insanely high.
He has also been critical to us getting points in this period. He has been creating important opportunities on top of this defensive performance. 4 keys passes in 5 games, but that does miss out a lot of his great attacking contributions e.g. penalty win and the pass to Sancho in the Chelsea game.
He has been our best player by a long way, in my opinion, since Solskjaer was sacked.
I maintain to this day: had Manchester City signed him, he would have been a great success.
19 tackles and 12 interceptions in 5 games. That is a defensive contribution of 6.2 tackles and interceptions per game, which is insanely high.
He has also been critical to us getting points in this period. He has been creating important opportunities on top of this defensive performance. 4 keys passes in 5 games, but that does miss out a lot of his great attacking contributions e.g. penalty win and the pass to Sancho in the Chelsea game.
He has been our best player by a long way, in my opinion, since Solskjaer was sacked.
I maintain to this day: had Manchester City signed him, he would have been a great success.
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