Fred and McT can’t defend… or can they?

[Pogue Mahone]

Roma’s second goal made Fred and McT look like mugs, defensively. And there’s been a few goals conceded this season where they’ve made poor individual errors. The Fred thread is full of stuff about how easy he is to dribble past. The McT thread talks about him hiding all the time.

Brain farts aside, I was curious to see how good they really are at protecting our defence. The stats are interesting.

We’ve started 18 games with them as a pair at the base of midfield (including almost all our toughest fixtures) In those 18 games we’ve conceded 11 goals. Every second fixture was a clean sheet. Extrapolated to a full season that’s 23 goals conceded. City have the meanest defence so far this season with 24 goals conceded and 4 games left to play. Chelsea are next, after shipping 31 in 33.

In games where they didn’t start we conceded 21 goals in 14 games. That works out at 57 goals over a full season.

Yet somehow Fred and McT are both portrayed as defensive liabilities.

Something just doesn’t add up. What’s going on? Discuss.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

23 goals against would have been the best defensive record in the league in each of the last 5 seasons (haven’t checked back any further)

 

[Ali Dia]

You can see from the match day threads that our fans are a reactive bunch that always want new players and are always very quick to destroy a player for missing a few passes. Fred is erratic but effective and mct isn’t creative enough in his passing or even a good tackler but as a pair I think they work very well going both ways. It’s our forwards who have let us down with the 0-0s and the Sheffield utd, West Brom games but people seem to like laying into the midfielders more than the forwards for some reason. A midfielder like Rice wouldn’t have helped one bit in any of those games above. We can see the huge difference a fit Cavani makes to the whole outlook

 

[Borys]

Roma’s second goal made Fred and McT look like mugs, defensively. And there’s been a few goals conceded this season where they’ve made poor individual errors. The Fred thread is full of stuff about how easy he is to dribble past. The McT thread talks about him hiding all the time.

Brain farts aside, I was curious to see how good they really are at protecting our defence. The stats are interesting.

We’ve started 18 games with them as a pair at the base of midfield (including almost all our toughest fixtures) In those 18 games we’ve conceded 11 goals. Every second fixture was a clean sheet. Extrapolated to a full season that’s 23 goals conceded. City have the meanest defence so far this season with 24 goals conceded and 4 games left to play. Chelsea are next, after shipping 31 in 33.

In games where they didn’t start we conceded 21 goals in 14 games. That works out at 57 goals over a full season.

Yet somehow Fred and McT are both portrayed as defensive liabilities.

Something just doesn’t add up. What’s going on? Discuss.

I think it's a wrong way to put it. They are not considered as "defensive liabilities", but neither of them is a defensive midfielder in natural sense. That's clear if you watch someone like Ndidi play.

I've always argued Fred and McTominay play conservative box to box midfielders, especially in big games where we were happy to get away with a draw. They are ok midfielders, without any particular strengths both defensively and offensively (apart maybe from McTominay shooting technique).

As much as I like them both, I'd rather get us a proper defensive midfielder (like Ndidi) because it would make us much more solid and we don't lose much (if anything at all) in terms of overall play.
It's also interesting how we've learned to play without using midfielders in the buildup, meaning in most cases ball goes from defenders / fullbacks straight to forward players.

Could you post the whole stats? I'm pretty sure we score a lot of goals with them in the team as well.

 

[TheGodsInRed]

I think most would say it stifles our attack having the two in the team, rather than the defence. Neither have any passing ability, Fred runs around the pitch trying to force mistakes and McT is able to cover the gaps left by Fred. Matic doesn't have the legs to do this any more, but he can actually pass a ball at least.

With McFred in the team, we lose a deep playing midfielder that can direct play. I think if we had a decent DM we could play Pogba a little deeper, but it doesn't work playing Pogba deeper with just McT or Fred.

 

[city-puma]

Roma’s second goal made Fred and McT look like mugs, defensively. And there’s been a few goals conceded this season where they’ve made poor individual errors. The Fred thread is full of stuff about how easy he is to dribble past. The McT thread talks about him hiding all the time.

Brain farts aside, I was curious to see how good they really are at protecting our defence. The stats are interesting.

We’ve started 18 games with them as a pair at the base of midfield (including almost all our toughest fixtures) In those 18 games we’ve conceded 11 goals. Every second fixture was a clean sheet. Extrapolated to a full season that’s 23 goals conceded. City have the meanest defence so far this season with 24 goals conceded and 4 games left to play. Chelsea are next, after shipping 31 in 33.

In games where they didn’t start we conceded 21 goals in 14 games. That works out at 57 goals over a full season.

Yet somehow Fred and McT are both portrayed as defensive liabilities.

Something just doesn’t add up. What’s going on? Discuss.

Anyone who truly watches our games over last two years consistently, will clearly know this mcfred partnership is the only foundation we have from the current squad.
With any other partnership most of times, we are dire to watch and only a few times we could escape with some individual brilliance.

 

[Borys]

Anyone who truly watches our games over last two years consistently, will clearly know this mcfred partnership is the only foundation we have from the current squad.
With any other partnership most of times, we are dire to watch and only a few times we could escape with some individual brilliance.

That's a good point, I'd add a lot of people don't realize how difficult it is to play in two man midfield in current United team, which is very top-heavy. We mostly play 4 forwards who are either not doing much defending (Martial, Greenwood, Rashford) or are very bad at it (Bruno). This is partly the reason we need to drop the dreams of Pogba or van de Beek in midfield, at least as long as we have someone who can hold the midfield on his own defensively.

 

[VorZakone]

Why is there such annoyance with the McFred partnership? I like them.

 

[11101]

Most people think defending = tackling. Carrick was a brilliant defender just by being in the right place to prevent a pass. Neither Fred nor McTominay are ideal defensive midfielders because they don't read the game well enough and they cant pass from deep, but both are good at what they do.

 

[Dan_F]

How many different combinations have we had in those games that they didn’t start. It’s logical that the two that play together most have the best understanding off the ball. If Pogba was given a settled partner (which suited his game) and they were given time to learn each other’s game, we might find that we would have a similar defensive result, or not much worse, but be far more imposing on the ball.

 

[city-puma]

That's a good point, I'd add a lot of people don't realize how difficult it is to play in two man midfield in current United team, which is very top-heavy. We mostly play 4 forwards who are either not doing much defending (Martial, Greenwood, Rashford) or are very bad at it (Bruno). This is partly the reason we need to drop the dreams of Pogba or van de Beek in midfield, at least as long as we have someone who can hold the midfield on his own defensively.

Very true.
In most cases when the opponents press us in our own half, we are normally outnumbered. But 2 CB + 1 FB + GK + McFred normally can handle such a situation very well and bring the ball to the attackers. We have so many attacking talents, and we want to have them on the pitch all even though they have much worse work rate. Therefore, McFred and the defensive players have a very tough task to fulfill. They have done it very well in general this season.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

i like both players, but nieter are defensive midfilders who will screen the back 4, both are more box to box players. which regaurly leaves a gap in front of the back 4.

 

[tjb]

Roma’s second goal made Fred and McT look like mugs, defensively. And there’s been a few goals conceded this season where they’ve made poor individual errors. The Fred thread is full of stuff about how easy he is to dribble past. The McT thread talks about him hiding all the time.

Brain farts aside, I was curious to see how good they really are at protecting our defence. The stats are interesting.

We’ve started 18 games with them as a pair at the base of midfield (including almost all our toughest fixtures) In those 18 games we’ve conceded 11 goals. Every second fixture was a clean sheet. Extrapolated to a full season that’s 23 goals conceded. City have the meanest defence so far this season with 24 goals conceded and 4 games left to play. Chelsea are next, after shipping 31 in 33.

In games where they didn’t start we conceded 21 goals in 14 games. That works out at 57 goals over a full season.

Yet somehow Fred and McT are both portrayed as defensive liabilities.

Something just doesn’t add up. What’s going on? Discuss.

You aren't taking the alternatives into account. Matic can't move anymore and Pogba...well you saw the penalty.

 

[city-puma]

How many different combinations have we had in those games that they didn’t start. It’s logical that the two that play together most have the best understanding off the ball. If Pogba was given a settled partner (which suited his game) and they were given time to learn each other’s game, we might find that we would have a similar defensive result, or not much worse, but be far more imposing on the ball.

It seems to me that you probably haven’t watch much of our games over last two years. Or, you probably have a short memory?
We basically have tried every possible combinations and tried many many times for each. Then, we run into a a very difficult situation and everyone started to call out Ole to be sacked. This happened last season and October this season. Do you remember? Both times, Ole brought back McFred and they steady the ship. They are our foundation now. They and our back four and Henderson have formed a very good system, which not many teams have a better one. We just lack the depth. It’s unrealistic to play McFred every game.

 

[Kag]

They’re an industrious pair and they provide some balance in there. Good players, both of them. They work hard and they’re worthy of a place here.

But they can’t pass the ball like United midfielders should. That’s a bigger issue than any defensive inconsistencies they may have.

On the defensive front, they’re much better at pressing the ball and making tackles further up the field than they are sniffing out danger in behind them in their own half. McTominay is particularly poor at that, which is probably something to do with the fact that he’s more of an attacking player than a defensive one. This is why folk complain about them defensively; neither of them sniff out danger that well. Matic remains by far the best at doing this but he’s essentially resigned to the wheelchair at this point.

There’s a lot more nuance to this debate than simply looking at the goals conceded tally.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You aren't taking the alternatives into account. Matic can't move anymore and Pogba...well you saw the penalty.

The alternatives only explain why our defensive record is terrible without McFred (and it’s absolutely shocking).

It doesn’t have any relevance as to why it’s so good in the games when they do start. Other than highlighting how important they are in achieving that record. As we know what happens when our back four don’t get enough protection from midfield.

 

[ivaldo]

If our players didn't make mistakes, then we'd have 33 clean sheets this season. Along with Lindelof (who coincidentally also didn't play in the game we shipped 6) are the players that came in for most criticism, but in reality, the stats simply don't stack up.

 

[city-puma]

The real issue is that everyone (except some of us) knows that McFred are our foundation, and in the key games, we will surely start McFred, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw. The opponents tried to target the weakness of this system. It caught us in the beginning phase of the games quite often. In most of time, they have been coping by themselves ok to some extent. A few times, we need a half time talk and adjustment to come back to ourselves in the second half.
remember that this system has been developed better and better. In the first third of the season, we always have difficulty in the first 15-25 mins, now it seems not a problem anymore.

 

[Ali Dia]

How many different combinations have we had in those games that they didn’t start. It’s logical that the two that play together most have the best understanding off the ball. If Pogba was given a settled partner (which suited his game) and they were given time to learn each other’s game, we might find that we would have a similar defensive result, or not much worse, but be far more imposing on the ball.

to be fair we’ve tried fred, Matic, Herrera and Mct beside Pogba as the two. None of them worked. Back in 2017/18 everyone was saying we have to upgrade on Matic to ever get the best out of Pogba. Then we went and got Fred who does make it into our best pivot but Pogba still doesn’t. Pogba is better as 10 or on the left.

 

[Dan_F]

It seems to me that you probably haven’t watch much of our games over last two years. Or, you probably have a short memory?
We basically have tried every possible combinations and tried many many times for each. Then, we run into a a very difficult situation and everyone started to call out Ole to be sacked. This happened last season and October this season. Do you remember? Both times, Ole brought back McFred and they steady the ship. They are our foundation now. They and our back four and Henderson have formed a very good system, which not many teams have a better one. We just lack the depth. It’s unrealistic to play McFred every game.

Last season being before we had Bruno and when Pogba was out for basically the whole of autumn? And October this season, when we had Fred and McTominay starting the games we didn’t win in October (Chelsea and PSG). Im not counting the Spurs game, but if anything it proves my point that you can’t just throw Pogba and Matic together one in five games and expect them to outperform two players who start together all the time.

I’m not suggesting McFred isn’t working for us currently, but I’d be massively surprised if we can really challenge City or the best in Europe using that midfield.

 

[Dan_F]

to be fair we’ve tried fred, Matic, Herrera and Mct beside Pogba as the two. None of them worked. Back in 2017/18 everyone was saying we have to upgrade on Matic to ever get the best out of Pogba. Then we went and got Fred who does make it into our best pivot but Pogba still doesn’t. Pogba is better as 10 or on the left.

My point isn’t solely about Pogba, I’m just saying that it’s logical the two that play together most would have the best understanding.

Matic was always a dreadful choice to play next to Pogba.

 

[Falcow]

You can see from the match day threads that our fans are a reactive bunch that always want new players and are always very quick to destroy a player for missing a few passes. Fred is erratic but effective and mct isn’t creative enough in his passing or even a good tackler but as a pair I think they work very well going both ways. It’s our forwards who have let us down with the 0-0s and the Sheffield utd, West Brom games but people seem to like laying into the midfielders more than the forwards for some reason. A midfielder like Rice wouldn’t have helped one bit in any of those games above. We can see the huge difference a fit Cavani makes to the whole outlook

Agree with this. I mentioned in another thread yesterday that we have drawn 7 league games since Christmas in which we have scored just 2 goals dropping 15 points along the way. Kept clean sheets in most of them. Defensively we are fine but its scoring goals that are the problem.

 

[city-puma]

to be fair we’ve tried fred, Matic, Herrera and Mct beside Pogba as the two. None of them worked. Back in 2017/18 everyone was saying we have to upgrade on Matic to ever get the best out of Pogba. Then we went and got Fred who does make it into our best pivot but Pogba still doesn’t. Pogba is better as 10 or on the left.

Pogba on the left up the pitch sacrifices our attack speed. But, he is priceless there to draw three or four of the opponents and release the ball to the middle due to his technical capability and physical presence. And, he can easily move into the box. He is so dangerous every time when getting nearby or into the box! Truly amazing.

 

[city-puma]

Last season being before we had Bruno and when Pogba was out for basically the whole of autumn? And October this season, when we had Fred and McTominay starting the games we didn’t win in October (Chelsea and PSG). Im not counting the Spurs game, but if anything it proves my point that you can’t just throw Pogba and Matic together one in five games and expect them to outperform two players who start together all the time.

I’m not suggesting McFred isn’t working for us currently, but I’d be massively surprised if we can really challenge City or the best in Europe using that midfield.

My opinion is that only McFred can’t help us challenge the biggest prize because they cannot play two games every week for the whole season. It’s a squad depth issue and we need to have one more to partner either of mcfred.

 

[Falcow]

Roma’s second goal made Fred and McT look like mugs, defensively. And there’s been a few goals conceded this season where they’ve made poor individual errors. The Fred thread is full of stuff about how easy he is to dribble past. The McT thread talks about him hiding all the time.

Brain farts aside, I was curious to see how good they really are at protecting our defence. The stats are interesting.

We’ve started 18 games with them as a pair at the base of midfield (including almost all our toughest fixtures) In those 18 games we’ve conceded 11 goals. Every second fixture was a clean sheet. Extrapolated to a full season that’s 23 goals conceded. City have the meanest defence so far this season with 24 goals conceded and 4 games left to play. Chelsea are next, after shipping 31 in 33.

In games where they didn’t start we conceded 21 goals in 14 games. That works out at 57 goals over a full season.

Yet somehow Fred and McT are both portrayed as defensive liabilities.

Something just doesn’t add up. What’s going on? Discuss.

Good post and given that they always start the big games, I dont see how anyone can argue with it. We are clearly better defensively when they play. Pogba is a great player but defensively not so much. He is much better further up the pitch with McFred behind him.

McFred bring vital qualities to the team, work rate being the main one. Most posters on here dont seem to realise how important that is. If a player can work hard when the team is not in possession, it is half the battle and Fred and Mctominay do that.

If Mctominay could tidy up his passing he would be awesome.

 

[Litch]

Whatever the view, Ole plays them especially in the big games for which we generally have a good record. People may want to dumb down their contribution but they do what is asked of them. The things people are criticising, are the things they would want more from players playing that position. That's not on them. They provide a platform for those in front of them to play and we have waited a long time to see this version of Pogs again, Mason form has been improving and Eddy like Pogs, we haven't had injury free enough. Include Rashford and Martial for both poor form and injury. If all fit and playing well, we would have gone longer in CL and been closer to City.

Not sure how we can critique McFred when some of our best performances, they are more of a constant than Pogs, Eddy et al. Ole trust them and second in the league and cup final isn't too shabby. Closer to City, Bayern etc extends further than just McFred, other positions and players will need to improve and be more consistent too....

 

[The_Midfielder]

They are not that bad ..
Fred is good passer in tight spaces .. but he can't pass long.. McT is good passer if allowed space ..
Shaw, Pogba and AwB can go high up because of their defensive ability..

 

[MadDogg]

Ideally we'd want to replace one of them (most likely McTominay) with somebody who defends more through intelligent positioning and who is better on the ball. It would, in theory at least, give us a better balance both defensively (allowing Fred/Scott to push up and press knowing he's got cover behind) and offensively (giving us more ball-playing ability out of the back instead of relying on Fred having to do it all himself when it's not really a strength).

 

[Devil may care]

One of the reasons we concede so few against the bigger teams is why we also score so few in those games, McFred and Maglof are a foursome holding hands in those matches and we sit deep looking for a counter. Look at the other night against Roma and your eyes will tell you why they aren't good defensively, you could have driven a freight train through our midfield as while McFred will hunt the ball and compete for it higher up, they are both fairly clueless positionally. Both are no more than squad players if we intend to compete for an actual PL title as opposed to just fighting for te top 4 cup.

 

[Tarrou]

as much as I like Fred if we could sell him for a decent amount and bring in Rice I'd be very happy with that

Rice would give us a better balance in midfield for sure

McT is similar to Fred in that he isn't suited to DM either, but I just love him too much we should never let him go!

 

[devilish]

Fred-McT had shielded our defence which is the third least conceded in the EPL. The price of that is that our creativity had often suffered because of that.

 

[iHicksy]

Why is there such annoyance with the McFred partnership? I like them.

So I think there's a few reasons people are annoyed by it. Neither of them are exceptional at anything that you typically want from a United centre mid. Fred is excellent as pressing, but his positioning, passing and shooting leave a lot to be desired. Scott is really more of a box to box centre mid, he's a 6 or 7 out of 10 for most things. So I think the feeling is that we're playing with two rather average centre mids to make up for each others shortcomings. What's more is that a prime Matic or Carrick (just as an example) could likely provide the same level of defensive cover with smarter positioning and awareness. So, what we have is two centre mids that are being used as a double pivot in front of the defense where the feeling is one really good one would do, but we don't have that. Some people think this base gives us a platform for our attack to flourish whilst also protecting the defence.

However, others believe that what we're actually doing is stifling our attacking player because neither are confident or great passers between the lines and aren't particularly pro-active. This puts a lot of pressure on Bruno to be our creative force, when Pogba isn't playing. This double pivot issue is componded by the fact that pogba is even more of a defensive liability in taking up one of the double pivot spaces and Matic is pretty much past it in performance to required games in a season. So this leaves little option but to play both. It's why Pogba has been shifted to a front 3 position - where I think he shines, away from defensive contributions. So we are potentially wasting a space in the team, and could have more creativity and attacking intent by going out and getting a really good DM to cover the back four. (I'm not saying this is right or wrong - this is just in my opinion the taste that McFred leaves in some mouths). For what it's worth, I would like to see us get someone along the lines of Rice and shift McT higher up the pitch as an offensive mid because I think he's actually better in and around the box.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Together they're probably fine defensively. But that's the issue. We have already have a RB who isn't excellent in attack (although recent games have been very good), and having two midfielders who get the job done defensively between them but offer so little on the ball, hurts us IMO. Between them and the right back you have three players in the buildup who can't really pass and offer very little technical quality on the ball. It adds a lot of pressure on the attack which is not needed.

We'd be much better off with:
A DM who can really defend
A number 8 who is good on the ball and works hard
Bruno

Obviously they have to be the right players.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This thread was primarily about whether or not McT can defend but even if you’re going to shift the discussion to blaming them for a lack of cutting edge that seems extremely harsh when you consider how many of the players we’ve relied on for goals have had relatively poor individual seasons.

The game against Roma was a great example of how effective we can be with a proper number nine, who can drag defenders out of position, threaten with runs in behind and win physical battles with his back to goal.

Seeing as we’ve lacked that so often this season and haven’t had anyone look even vaguely competent on the right wing I think it’s missing the point to focus on deeper areas of the pitch to blame in games where we struggle to score.

 

[Trex]

Matic- ideal partner: no one he is to slow, leaves too much for his partner.
Mctominay- Ideal partner: a deep lying playmaker that's sits in front of the defence
Fred- Ideal partner: a prime Matic type or a deep lying playmaker.
Pogba- Ideal partner: no one player can cover for Pogba, keep him higher up.
The mcfred partnership has two flaws
Neither of them has the positional intelligence. (The lesser issue)
Neither has the range of passing and press resistance when playing out from the back.(The bigger flaw).
I think we can get away with a pivot were neither is a pure sitter but well always struggle to impose ourselves and look totally dominant if we don't land a technical midfielder who can orchestrate our play.

p.s: For those who think buying Rice would mean we switch to a 433 that won't happen. Ole preferred system is a 4231 and that won't change.

 

[Trex]

Matic- ideal partner: no one he is to slow, leaves too much for his partner.
Mctominay- Ideal partner: a deep lying playmaker that's sits in front of the defence
Fred- Ideal partner: a prime Matic type or a deep lying playmaker.
Pogba- Ideal partner: no one player can cover for Pogba, keep him higher up.
The mcfred partnership has two flaws
Neither of them has the positional intelligence. (The lesser issue)
Neither has the range of passing and press resistance when playing out from the back.(The bigger flaw).
I think we can get away with a pivot were neither is a pure sitter but well always struggle to impose ourselves and look totally dominant if we don't land a technical midfielder who can orchestrate our play.

p.s: For those who think buying Rice would mean we switch to a 433 that won't happen. Ole preferred system is a 4231 and that won't change.

 

[Lebo]

Why are people super concerned about positional sense in defence of our 2 midfielders when they are the primary reason we keep so many clean sheets?

currently, the sole reason we are out of the champions league is because Fred was suspended for that game and we ended up conceding 3 goals. Something we rarely do when he and McT play no matter how good the opponent is.

 

[lex talionis]

It’s not that McFred “can’t defend”. The problem with McFred is neither are creative players, which leaves us a man short in options in attacking situations.

When we’re under siege the two can do a job — but let’s not go overboard with praise, please, fir the defensive job they do — but it boggles the mind that when we go up against sides that sit back on us that we persist with McFred to defend against a threat that just doesn’t exist.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Why are people super concerned about positional sense in defence of our 2 midfielders when they are the primary reason we keep so many clean sheets?

currently, the sole reason we are out of the champions league is because Fred was suspended for that game and we ended up conceding 3 goals. Something we rarely do when he and McT play no matter how good the opponent is.

Not so much rarely as never.

The most goals we’ve conceded in the league in games they start is two. This has happened twice (consecutive games against Leeds and Leicester).

In 7 games we’ve conceded one goal. The other 9 have all been clean sheets.

 

[meamth]

About time they deserve some respect here. Thanks for this thread.

The slander they've been getting is just disrespectful and stupid.

In our total of 8 losses, Mcfred only started twice, and that's very respectful record I must say.

They are without any doubt, the most balanced pivot in our team right now.

Thing is, Fred can still improve in some aspects of his game (I'm a firm believer), and McT is still young as a CM. They will get better.

Here's the thing, we don't need an all star double pivot to support an already star studded advanced positions in Pogba/Bruno/Cavani/Rashford.

They can get the job done, and they will get better.

EDIT:
Fans clearly wanted some Scholes-like/Xavi/Busquets kind of player there, but we all should know that this is how the modern game midfield supposed to look like now.

2 high energy CM, DLP and classic CDM is a dying breed.