Fred is one of the most underrated players in England

wolvored

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Why is he not in the Brazil NT?
That says it all.
Im not a Fred is useless, nor Fred is the second coming thinker. He is an average player who if we had have paid £25-30 mill for you could accept his limitations. For £54 mill he should be so much better. Think of Partey at the same cost, 2 years later.
 

Borys

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Glad he got some rest during International break. Keeping players fresh will be crucial this season.
 

Adam-Utd

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That says it all.
Im not a Fred is useless, nor Fred is the second coming thinker. He is an average player who if we had have paid £25-30 mill for you could accept his limitations. For £54 mill he should be so much better. Think of Partey at the same cost, 2 years later.
Plenty of good United players haven't played for their national teams in the past also.

Anyway I couldn't care less if he plays for Brazil or not, he's very important to us.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I’m bookmarking this thread.

Over the past few weeks I’ve seen people on this forum liken Fred to. . . Keane [yes Roy, not Robbie], Davids, Gattuso, Kante to name a few. We now have people disrespecting The Fabregas Stopper aka Sir Darren of Fletcher :lol:

He’s quite obviously a good footballer but this forum has outdone itself.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Can I get an update on this @MadDogg ?

Because it could be a very useful stat, but right now it doesn't seem to be.

If the argument is that Fred would play for Liverpool, Liverpool's CMs dont feature in the list. That tells you that relentless pressing isnt what Klopp wants from his CMs/DMs else they would be on the list. Its what he wants in attacking areas, which is not what the graphic shows. And what he wants from attacking players and Fred isnt a winger or striker so he doesnt fit there either.

What we could do though is see what the data was before Fred, with Ander playing that role in the team That would require previous seasons pressing stats.
You & @simplyared are focusing too much on small specific stats that don't really tell the bigger picture.

Let's talk about the defensive stuff:

If you watch how Fred plays, his amazing defensive attribute is on his ball recoveries and his pressing, these aspects offer lot of things in football match and the main one is forcing opposition players to make mistakes and lose the ball to regain possession back. So in other word, getting passed by players doesn't mean jack shit. How? Okay let me give you good example:

Against Everton there was one time where Coleman beat Fred and Coleman was able to get into our penalty box. But Fred didn't just give up when he got passed by player, he tracked Coleman back and putting Coleman under pressure right behind Coleman which forced Coleman to make mistake by making shot that was way off the target. If he wasn't under pressure, Coleman would have been in the situation where he would be in getting lot of space & time to make the right decision by crossing the ball which could have been an easy tap in goal for Calvert Lewin.

@MadDogg showed a screen shot of Fred being one of the best pressing player in the game, he's up there alongside Laimer who is known as pressing machine last season and one of RB Leipzig key player in midfield. Just like Fred, Laimer also get passed by players lot, his dribble past average in Bundesliga is 2 and in Champions League is 2.7.

And it's relevant to what I am about to tell you about Klopp. Klopp's philosophy is high press and gegenpressing. That philosophy doesn't require midfield that doesn't get passed easily. Nagelsmann is a good example playing high press and gegenpressing and he has Laimer in his midfield who also get dribbled past lot.

Now, let's talk about his ball playing stuff:

Fred has weakness with his composure on the ball but that's just one aspect and that aspect doesn't stop us winning matches, there are many aspect you can view about passing ability. Unlike Herrera, Fred can pass the ball using both of his feet and his instinct is to play progressive passes not safe passes. Last season Fred had 3.8 long ball, 87.5 passing accuracy & 1.2 key passes, and he plays in deep role of double pivot. All of these combined are better than what Herrera did with us, Kante did last season and Laimer did. He's nowhere near as good as playmaker like Thiago, Scholes or Carrick but his passing ability is still better than lot midfielders out there.

And based on June 2020 stats, his ball progressive is above lot of players.

 

tenpoless

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If he's good at passing he'll be brilliant.

Out of curiousity, surely it is easier to learn how to pass than to learn to have a work rate as much as him. Everybody could train to pass propely and over time it becomes muscle memory, to have three lungs on the other hand you have to be a special 1 out of 10 million or something.
 

MadDogg

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Can I get an update on this @MadDogg ?

Because it could be a very useful stat, but right now it doesn't seem to be.

If the argument is that Fred would play for Liverpool, Liverpool's CMs dont feature in the list. That tells you that relentless pressing isnt what Klopp wants from his CMs/DMs else they would be on the list. Its what he wants in attacking areas, which is not what the graphic shows. And what he wants from attacking players and Fred isnt a winger or striker so he doesnt fit there either.

What we could do though is see what the data was before Fred, with Ander playing that role in the team That would require previous seasons pressing stats.
Well, you sent me down a rabbit hole. I couldn't find a nice diagram like I originally posted (which I stole from somebody else a week or so ago), but I did find stats on the site that it links to. Interesting site actually - https://fbref.com/en/. It only has stats from the last four season from the top 5 leagues but it seems quite in-depth. Not sure if there's an option somewhere to get the information in a visual diagram so I just did up a table myself (I'll be pissed if I missed an easy way :lol: ).

First I just compared to Fred and Herrera, and it was actually the opposite of what I was expecting. Herrera actually attempts slightly more presses, but Fred has a higher success rate. Then I started comparing all of the main midfielders from Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. If the player has played a decent amount for that team (or had gone elsewhere) I only used those stats, but if they are new players I included their old club. I don't have VDB's stats as it doesn't have the Eredivisie.


*pg= Per game.

Herrera and Fred are not just far ahead of our other midfielders, but also everyone else in the big four. Probably the most surprising thing though is how low McTominay is, he actually presses less than Pogba and Matic, and in fact Fernandinho and Gundogan are the only midfielders in the big four who are below him. It's also probably surprising that Pogba presses more than most of City's midfielders and a couple of Liverpool's (he has the lowest success rate though).

Then I did the same for the attacking players (without worrying about where on the field the press was):



For us, it should be noted that Martial improved last season and pressed more than Rashford, who actually pressed less than he had previously. I expected James and Lingard to be our best but it surprised me that they were as high as they were, particularly Lingard who has easily the best pressing numbers out of all the attackers I checked (only just below Fred and Herrera's midfield numbers). He puts even Firmino to shame. Speaking of Firmino, he's the one (and maybe now Jota?) who elevate the Liverpool numbers up, as Mane and Salah are fairly good but not amazing. It actually surprised me that City were so low (barely more than us), although Bernardo Silva would raise that up quite a bit. I put him in the central midfield list but he did play almost half of those matches on the wing.

These stats should be taken with the knowledge that Liverpool and City both dominate possession far more than we do, so they get their pressing numbers in a smaller amount of time. Of course that doesn't scale perfectly as the fact they don't have to defend as much enables them to have the energy and field position to press more easily, but it's something to keep in mind.

Another thing to take note of - all of our midfielders get almost as many pressing opportunities in the defensive 3rd as they do in the middle 3rd, which is obviously quite different than the other three teams. It shows that they play higher up the field than we do and tend to do more of their pressing on the front foot.

Liverpool - spread their pressing fairly evenly between attackers and midfielders, with Firmino the standout.
Man City - Normally sit their main DM back then spread the pressing, which was less than I expected, fairly evenly. Bernardo Silva being a standout (no way to really tell if his stats change depending what position he's playing).
Chelsea - A very solid high average throughout their midfield, with also a good amount in their forwards. Almost all of those forwards are new players whose stats are either in a short amount of time (Pulisic) or at previous clubs though.
Man Utd - the largest variance between players. In Fred, Lingard and previously Herrera they have/had the three highest attempted presses by quite some way from all players checked. Otherwise the midfield is decent, but the attack is quite low.
 
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amolbhatia50k

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Yep and even back then I remember not all of the posters here liked him so it is not surprising to see most who think Fred isn't United quality.
Most loved Kante thought. Becuase he was genuinely fantastic. Fred really isn't, not yet at least.
 

kkengvib

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I'm not saying they are the same but I see Fred as a Nicky Butt-level type of player. Potentially a good squad player in a title winning/challenging team but he's not good enough to be a core part of it if we have aspirations in challenging the likes of Liverpool/Man City. We massively overpaid for him but I don't mind him being a squad player. Seems to have a good attitude & works hard.
 

MadDogg

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I'm not saying they are the same but I see Fred as a Nicky Butt-level type of player. Potentially a good squad player in a title winning/challenging team but he's not good enough to be a core part of it if we have aspirations in challenging the likes of Liverpool/Man City. We massively overpaid for him but I don't mind him being a squad player. Seems to have a good attitude & works hard.
Personally I'd put him up one level higher than you. He's not good enough to be one of the main men (which is our issue atm because he probably is our main man in midfield), but I think he's good enough to be one of the starting 11.
 

Lentwood

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The trouble is with players like Fred is that they don't do anything flashy - I personally think that most people don't understand what a CM does.

I am by no means a great footballer, but I have played as a CM for 20yrs at various levels from Sunday league up to low semi-pro levels in regional leagues. At that kind of level, where the game is much quicker than, say, Sunday League, and teams are fitter/more organised tactically, the midfield 'battle' is exactly that....it's a battle! Your job is to win headers, to win tackles, to cover ground, to fill gaps, to press when the opportunity occurs and to keep the ball moving as quickly and as simply to the attacking players as is possible.

Now, as you go up through the levels and the game gets even faster and even more organised, it becomes even more important that you win that midfield battle. This is central to a team gaining control of a football match.

Nowadays, ask fans to name a 'central midfield' player, they will invariably name players like Lampard, Gerrard, Pogba, Fernandes, Scholes etc....now, I would agree with some of those to a degree, but they're certainly not what I would call your typical 'CM'.

For me, and this is why most teams now play with three CMs, is that you need two (minimum) to play 'centre midfield' and one additional player to link midfield/attack, to create goals, to press high and to score goals...or in other words, an 'attacking midfielder' (this is how I would categorise Bruno, Frank Lampard, Gerrard and Pogba)

Getting back to the point at hand, I wouldn't care less if Fred and McTom registered fewer than 10 goals/assists between them over the course of a 60-game season. For me, that's not their job. Their job is to help us control and therefore win football matches. You won't get that control (as we have seen) playing the likes of Pogba in that position. It's just not a viable option at all for me.

I would say that most of the criticisms of McFred are redundant. Yes, they need to be adequate on the ball. You can't have them give it away every time they gain possession, otherwise that's massively counter-productive, even if they are excellent at shielding and pressing. However, for me, McTom especially is more than 'good enough' and Fred is much improved in possession.

Those two should be the starting pair every week, with a back four or five. It's then on the attacking players to create those moments of magic required to score goals and win games. I saw a nice piece in The Athletic recently which explained how we attack when we are good (versus Everton) and how we attack when we are bad (versus Istanbul) and the consensus was we struggle to score and look bereft of ideas on occasion because our attacking players tend to abandon their instructions and crowd the ball/central areas...as opposed to staying in their positions and trusting that the ball will come.

That for me needs to be continued to be worked on and we should let McFred get on with what they are good at
 

Web of Bissaka

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Maybe he's not just "underrated" only in England but also elsewhere in both club and international football levels?

Therefore, he is actually "rightly rated"?

No doubt he's important to the current United team...
 

Web of Bissaka

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The trouble is with players like Fred is that they don't do anything flashy - I personally think that most people don't understand what a CM does.

I am by no means a great footballer, but I have played as a CM for 20yrs at various levels from Sunday league up to low semi-pro levels in regional leagues. At that kind of level, where the game is much quicker than, say, Sunday League, and teams are fitter/more organised tactically, the midfield 'battle' is exactly that....it's a battle! Your job is to win headers, to win tackles, to cover ground, to fill gaps, to press when the opportunity occurs and to keep the ball moving as quickly and as simply to the attacking players as is possible.

Now, as you go up through the levels and the game gets even faster and even more organised, it becomes even more important that you win that midfield battle. This is central to a team gaining control of a football match.

Nowadays, ask fans to name a 'central midfield' player, they will invariably name players like Lampard, Gerrard, Pogba, Fernandes, Scholes etc....now, I would agree with some of those to a degree, but they're certainly not what I would call your typical 'CM'.

For me, and this is why most teams now play with three CMs, is that you need two (minimum) to play 'centre midfield' and one additional player to link midfield/attack, to create goals, to press high and to score goals...or in other words, an 'attacking midfielder' (this is how I would categorise Bruno, Frank Lampard, Gerrard and Pogba)

Getting back to the point at hand, I wouldn't care less if Fred and McTom registered fewer than 10 goals/assists between them over the course of a 60-game season. For me, that's not their job. Their job is to help us control and therefore win football matches. You won't get that control (as we have seen) playing the likes of Pogba in that position. It's just not a viable option at all for me.

I would say that most of the criticisms of McFred are redundant. Yes, they need to be adequate on the ball. You can't have them give it away every time they gain possession, otherwise that's massively counter-productive, even if they are excellent at shielding and pressing. However, for me, McTom especially is more than 'good enough' and Fred is much improved in possession.

Those two should be the starting pair every week, with a back four or five. It's then on the attacking players to create those moments of magic required to score goals and win games. I saw a nice piece in The Athletic recently which explained how we attack when we are good (versus Everton) and how we attack when we are bad (versus Istanbul) and the consensus was we struggle to score and look bereft of ideas on occasion because our attacking players tend to abandon their instructions and crowd the ball/central areas...as opposed to staying in their positions and trusting that the ball will come.

That for me needs to be continued to be worked on and we should let McFred get on with what they are good at
Good post.
Covered all the minimum fundamental roles of CM, which both Fred and McT can do, but Pogba consistently couldn't... unless when he's with France so slower pace. Bruno can also do it, and prime Matic can do it with ease as well.

I think Fred is more flashy when he's on the ball with dribbling skills skipping past players.
McT is the one that rarely ever do anything flashy until he pull off albeit rarely skills to skip pressers eg. vs Barca, deliver good long range passes, or execute execution-ing slide tackles.
 

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Well, you sent me down a rabbit hole. I couldn't find a nice diagram like I originally posted (which I stole from somebody else a week or so ago), but I did find stats on the site that it links to. Interesting site actually - https://fbref.com/en/. It only has stats from the last four season from the top 5 leagues but it seems quite in-depth. Not sure if there's an option somewhere to get the information in a visual diagram so I just did up a table myself (I'll be pissed if I missed an easy way :lol: ).

First I just compared to Fred and Herrera, and it was actually the opposite of what I was expecting. Herrera actually attempts slightly more presses, but Fred has a higher success rate. Then I started comparing all of the main midfielders from Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. If the player has played a decent amount for that team (or had gone elsewhere) I only used those stats, but if they are new players I included their old club. I don't have VDB's stats as it doesn't have the Eredivisie.


*pg= Per game.

Herrera and Fred are not just far ahead of our other midfielders, but also everyone else in the big four. Probably the most surprising thing though is how low McTominay is, he actually presses less than Pogba and Matic, and in fact Fernandinho and Gundogan are the only midfielders in the big four who are below him. It's also probably surprising that Pogba presses more than most of City's midfielders and a couple of Liverpool's (he has the lowest success rate though).

Then I did the same for the attacking players (without worrying about where on the field the press was):



For us, it should be noted that Martial improved last season and pressed more than Rashford, who actually pressed less than he had previously. I expected James and Lingard to be our best but it surprised me that they were as high as they were, particularly Lingard who has easily the best pressing numbers out of all the attackers I checked (only just below Fred and Herrera's midfield numbers). He puts even Firmino to shame. Speaking of Firmino, he's the one (and maybe now Jota?) who elevate the Liverpool numbers up, as Mane and Salah are fairly good but not amazing. It actually surprised me that City were so low (barely more than us), although Bernardo Silva would raise that up quite a bit. I put him in the central midfield list but he did play almost half of those matches on the wing.

These stats should be taken with the knowledge that Liverpool and City both dominate possession far more than we do, so they get their pressing numbers in a smaller amount of time. Of course that doesn't scale perfectly as the fact they don't have to defend as much enables them to have the energy and field position to press more easily, but it's something to keep in mind.

Another thing to take note of - all of our midfielders get almost as many pressing opportunities in the defensive 3rd as they do in the middle 3rd, which is obviously quite different than the other three teams. It shows that they play higher up the field than we do and tend to do more of their pressing on the front foot.

Liverpool - spread their pressing fairly evenly between attackers and midfielders, with Firmino the standout.
Man City - Normally sit their main DM back then spread the pressing, which was less than I expected, fairly evenly. Bernardo Silva being a standout (no way to really tell if his stats change depending what position he's playing).
Chelsea - A very solid high average throughout their midfield, with also a good amount in their forwards. Almost all of those forwards are new players whose stats are either in a short amount of time (Pulisic) or at previous clubs though.
Man Utd - the largest variance between players. In Fred, Lingard and previously Herrera they have/had the three highest attempted presses by quite some way from all players checked. Otherwise the midfield is decent, but the attack is quite low.
Great post! Thanks, that builds a much better picture of where Fred's pressing fits in compared to Ander before him and the other players at our rivals. It also fits into what I'm suggesting about Liverpool and Fred - that their midfield isnt tasked with lots of pressing in their system and so Fred doing lots of it wouldnt be what they wanted from their CM. They ask for that from the attacking players instead.

I'm also not surprised that Ander pressed more often, and that he pressed more in defensive areas than Fred or that he pressed more often in attack trying to win the ball high up.

At the same time its obviously nice to see that Fred's numbers compared to Ander are superior with presses in midfield areas and that he has more success rate. And that out of the players we have now, unsurprisingly he's far ahead of our other CMs
 

Martialfc

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I actually despise the term squad player. “Fred will be a good squad player” if people are branding them as a squad player they really aren’t good enough. It’s really that simple. Look at City is Mahrez, Bernardo Silva, Sterling, Ferran Torres, KDB squad players ? No chance. They walk into our team. Whereas we describe Mata, Mctominay, Fred, Matic as squad players to give it some sort of justification why they aren’t good enough.
 

Remember the geese

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I actually despise the term squad player. “Fred will be a good squad player” if people are branding them as a squad player they really aren’t good enough. It’s really that simple. Look at City is Mahrez, Bernardo Silva, Sterling, Ferran Torres, KDB squad players ? No chance. They walk into our team. Whereas we describe Mata, Mctominay, Fred, Matic as squad players to give it some sort of justification why they aren’t good enough.
I'm not sure what your point is? You've just listed a bunch of City players (the majority of whom start for them) and proceeded to agonize over the fact that they'd start for us too. Ok...
 

romufc

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I actually despise the term squad player. “Fred will be a good squad player” if people are branding them as a squad player they really aren’t good enough. It’s really that simple. Look at City is Mahrez, Bernardo Silva, Sterling, Ferran Torres, KDB squad players ? No chance. They walk into our team. Whereas we describe Mata, Mctominay, Fred, Matic as squad players to give it some sort of justification why they aren’t good enough.
Are you here to troll Manutd fans? You keep referring back to Man City as if they are the something special.

You have named 6 players that play cover 4 positions. RW, LW, CM & CAM. We have Bruno, Donny, Pogba, Rashford, Greenwood who can play those positions, I am sure alot of them could get into the City team too.

We have squad players just like City do, do you think Zinchenko, Bravo, Stones get into our team? No.
 

romufc

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I would say that most of the criticisms of McFred are redundant. Yes, they need to be adequate on the ball. You can't have them give it away every time they gain possession, otherwise that's massively counter-productive, even if they are excellent at shielding and pressing. However, for me, McTom especially is more than 'good enough' and Fred is much improved in possession.

Those two should be the starting pair every week, with a back four or five. It's then on the attacking players to create those moments of magic required to score goals and win games. I saw a nice piece in The Athletic recently which explained how we attack when we are good (versus Everton) and how we attack when we are bad (versus Istanbul) and the consensus was we struggle to score and look bereft of ideas on occasion because our attacking players tend to abandon their instructions and crowd the ball/central areas...as opposed to staying in their positions and trusting that the ball will come.

That for me needs to be continued to be worked on and we should let McFred get on with what they are good at
I agree with this. What McFred do is allow us to maintain attacks, which is what we struggle with without the 2 players who can win possession back. Look at games V Brighton, Palace, Istanbul where whenever the opponent had the ball, they kept it too easily whereas when these 2 start, as soon as the ball is near the centre, they are on it, trying to win it back which means our defence can push up and not be troubled all game.

This also leaves with 4 attackers to attack aided with 2 full backs. This allows our attackers to pick up pockets rather than having 6 attackers all in each other space.

Because McFred hold their position when the ball comes back to them from say full backs, the opposition has to press them creating a hole in their midfield, which is filled by our attacker.

Bruno's second goal is a prime example of this where Fred picks it up and Rashford picks up a pocket in between their midfield and attack, gets the ball and turns. When we have too many attackers, our players cannot pick those positions.
 

MrEarl

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Well, you sent me down a rabbit hole. I couldn't find a nice diagram like I originally posted (which I stole from somebody else a week or so ago), but I did find stats on the site that it links to. Interesting site actually - https://fbref.com/en/. It only has stats from the last four season from the top 5 leagues but it seems quite in-depth. Not sure if there's an option somewhere to get the information in a visual diagram so I just did up a table myself (I'll be pissed if I missed an easy way :lol: ).

First I just compared to Fred and Herrera, and it was actually the opposite of what I was expecting. Herrera actually attempts slightly more presses, but Fred has a higher success rate. Then I started comparing all of the main midfielders from Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. If the player has played a decent amount for that team (or had gone elsewhere) I only used those stats, but if they are new players I included their old club. I don't have VDB's stats as it doesn't have the Eredivisie.


*pg= Per game.

Herrera and Fred are not just far ahead of our other midfielders, but also everyone else in the big four. Probably the most surprising thing though is how low McTominay is, he actually presses less than Pogba and Matic, and in fact Fernandinho and Gundogan are the only midfielders in the big four who are below him. It's also probably surprising that Pogba presses more than most of City's midfielders and a couple of Liverpool's (he has the lowest success rate though).

Then I did the same for the attacking players (without worrying about where on the field the press was):



For us, it should be noted that Martial improved last season and pressed more than Rashford, who actually pressed less than he had previously. I expected James and Lingard to be our best but it surprised me that they were as high as they were, particularly Lingard who has easily the best pressing numbers out of all the attackers I checked (only just below Fred and Herrera's midfield numbers). He puts even Firmino to shame. Speaking of Firmino, he's the one (and maybe now Jota?) who elevate the Liverpool numbers up, as Mane and Salah are fairly good but not amazing. It actually surprised me that City were so low (barely more than us), although Bernardo Silva would raise that up quite a bit. I put him in the central midfield list but he did play almost half of those matches on the wing.

These stats should be taken with the knowledge that Liverpool and City both dominate possession far more than we do, so they get their pressing numbers in a smaller amount of time. Of course that doesn't scale perfectly as the fact they don't have to defend as much enables them to have the energy and field position to press more easily, but it's something to keep in mind.

Another thing to take note of - all of our midfielders get almost as many pressing opportunities in the defensive 3rd as they do in the middle 3rd, which is obviously quite different than the other three teams. It shows that they play higher up the field than we do and tend to do more of their pressing on the front foot.

Liverpool - spread their pressing fairly evenly between attackers and midfielders, with Firmino the standout.
Man City - Normally sit their main DM back then spread the pressing, which was less than I expected, fairly evenly. Bernardo Silva being a standout (no way to really tell if his stats change depending what position he's playing).
Chelsea - A very solid high average throughout their midfield, with also a good amount in their forwards. Almost all of those forwards are new players whose stats are either in a short amount of time (Pulisic) or at previous clubs though.
Man Utd - the largest variance between players. In Fred, Lingard and previously Herrera they have/had the three highest attempted presses by quite some way from all players checked. Otherwise the midfield is decent, but the attack is quite low.
Thanks for all the hard work. Really informative including your comments.
 

NoPace

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Fred probably isn't a Brazil fixture because he's not a pure #6 and they seem to play with one holder. He's a double pivot type. That's why this setup make sense if Pogba goes:


Bruno---VDB (Fred as a defensive option, a #10 type as another offensive option)
-------#6------- (McTominay)

and so when we are worried about the midfield battle can start Fred to give the #6 help and free up Bruno and just bring VDB off the bench or play a diamond and use him as a false 9 basically.
 

fps

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Even when we had the two centre mids in Herrera and Matic in there with him, he still wasn't producing as much as he should. He'd miss pens, and still not be the gamechanger Bruno is showing himself to be.

We've tried sitting him with another centre mid in a 2 behind Bruno, and that just leaves us way too open generally.

Maybe it can still work against smaller teams we'll have 80% of the ball against, or maybe we can have him playing Mata's type of role out wide with 3 players in midfield between him and our defence!
But it's very much starting to feel like end days Rooney, of we've used every excuse, tried every way round it, and eventually you have to think, hang on, maybe it's this guy who is the problem!
Just found this post. 100% top marks.
 

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Fletcher, Park, O’Shea and Brown were all brilliant players for us don’t dare equate their footballing ability to Fred. Even Troy Deeney said that “everyone knows when you play united press Fred when he is on the ball. He always needs three or four touches” that’s how average he is! Troy Deeney is saying he’s useless, yet our fans think he’s the next Scholes the way they bang on about him. He’s simply not good enough to be at a team like united. Peoples standards have dropped and if you want us to stay mid table then carry on.
How old are you? Genuinely curious? I've been following United for almost 30 years and Fletcher was treated/disparaged as badly if not worse than Fred is for a large part of his early years with us and it was only in the year or two before he was diagnosed with Crohns' that people valued him in our midfield. A significant proportion of fans couldn't see his value and thought he was Fergie's illegitimate child, calling him Darren Ferguson (due to Fergie's son having the same first name). JOS was also thought of as a just-adequate-but-never-world-class utility man by many for a good time, and not good enough. His first year was great (skinning Figo etc), but he had plenty average performances in his early days as he was adjusting, he never had pace, but cold slot in at LB and CB and helped build a platform for players like Rooney, Scholes etc. He was always in the squad and people always wanted better. Brown was a sicknote many a season with us, sort of like Bailly (but not as bad).

You don't know what you have until you lose it. I can easily see ten years from now people might actually be laughing at posters like you saying Fred is league one standard.

You cannot build a title-winning team with everyone being a superstar - it didnt even work for real who cold win UCLs but never the league consistently when they tried to. The superstars you know for the most part were the grafters in the team they dominated with (see in the 90s Butt, who was never as talented as Sholes, Keane etc but played a role and was not crap, or P. Neville).

And who the hell is Troy Deeney? As if a washed up run-of-the-mill striker is the gold standard we judge our players by! Fred has actually played for the Brazil national team - one of the hardest national sides in world football to even get to train with, much less be in their squad. What as Troy "we-target-Fred" Deeney done for England?

Targeting of Fred in previous games has more to do with the fact his teammates didn't move to give him early passing options vs him not being able to play - that has been an issue with this team for several years when we play the so-called smaller teams.
 

bugmat

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Why is he not in the Brazil NT?
He was until his first (?) year with us when we played him little, and out of position (Mou - didn't want him possibly) and then benched him (post lockdown Ole not sing his bench for months). Matter of fact he was injured with them the year he joined us during that world cup campaign right before the tournament.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/07/brazil-fred-right-ankle-injury-scare-eve-world-cup

Given our initial form this season prior to October it's a wonder any of our boys got called up. But then Brazil has a much larger pool of talented players to draw from than England or Scotland. They can do w/o Fred but England can't do without mcT or maguire no matter their form.
 

bugmat

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Yeah most people hated Fletcher for a long time. He was a very limited player. Mainly just a workhorse as I remember. The only time a remember him getting much praise was when he missed the Champions League final and people thought we might have won if he was involved.

Even Carrick was always criticized as only playing the ball sideways.

Fred is decent and getting better. He'd thrive in a Liverpool midfield for sure.
All of this - a lot of young fans on here it seems who only know players from highlight reels and articles. I've seen people say Fred doesn't pass forwards enough and only passes sideways (not necessarily in this thread). All critiques leveled at Carrick when he used to be a regular in the side and was Scholes "assistant". Carrick scored only 24 goals goals for us in a decade which was another criticism.

Having seen these players live you know they were never perfect. I still remember the season people wanted Giggs sold!
 

White Fury

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I'd much rather we keep Fred and get rid of Fraudba. Fred is obviously not a flashy world class player and never will be, but he doesnt need to. He does the job required at midfield and Im sure he can imrpove some parts of his game like passing and composure on the ball. Liverpool proved that you dont need to have whole midfield of world class players to win titles and play good football.
 

MikeeMike

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You & @simplyared are focusing too much on small specific stats that don't really tell the bigger picture.

Let's talk about the defensive stuff:

If you watch how Fred plays, his amazing defensive attribute is on his ball recoveries and his pressing, these aspects offer lot of things in football match and the main one is forcing opposition players to make mistakes and lose the ball to regain possession back. So in other word, getting passed by players doesn't mean jack shit. How? Okay let me give you good example:

Against Everton there was one time where Coleman beat Fred and Coleman was able to get into our penalty box. But Fred didn't just give up when he got passed by player, he tracked Coleman back and putting Coleman under pressure right behind Coleman which forced Coleman to make mistake by making shot that was way off the target. If he wasn't under pressure, Coleman would have been in the situation where he would be in getting lot of space & time to make the right decision by crossing the ball which could have been an easy tap in goal for Calvert Lewin.

@MadDogg showed a screen shot of Fred being one of the best pressing player in the game, he's up there alongside Laimer who is known as pressing machine last season and one of RB Leipzig key player in midfield. Just like Fred, Laimer also get passed by players lot, his dribble past average in Bundesliga is 2 and in Champions League is 2.7.

And it's relevant to what I am about to tell you about Klopp. Klopp's philosophy is high press and gegenpressing. That philosophy doesn't require midfield that doesn't get passed easily. Nagelsmann is a good example playing high press and gegenpressing and he has Laimer in his midfield who also get dribbled past lot.

Now, let's talk about his ball playing stuff:

Fred has weakness with his composure on the ball but that's just one aspect and that aspect doesn't stop us winning matches, there are many aspect you can view about passing ability. Unlike Herrera, Fred can pass the ball using both of his feet and his instinct is to play progressive passes not safe passes. Last season Fred had 3.8 long ball, 87.5 passing accuracy & 1.2 key passes, and he plays in deep role of double pivot. All of these combined are better than what Herrera did with us, Kante did last season and Laimer did. He's nowhere near as good as playmaker like Thiago, Scholes or Carrick but his passing ability is still better than lot midfielders out there.

And based on June 2020 stats, his ball progressive is above lot of players.

And the 93rd minute amatuerish moment when he handed Everton a draw on a plate ??
 

tenpoless

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I see there are still posts about Deeney exposing Fred's weakness. Yeah like all players don't have weaknesses all I can say is Deeney could only dream of playing for United :D

Do you trust Ole for believing in Fred or do you trust Watford Lukaku?
 

NinjaZombie

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I've always rated Fletcher and Carrick. I don't rate Fred. He's got nothing on those two. Carrick especially. Fred doesn't have the same intelligence as Carrick had, and far less composure on the ball. There's no finesse or thought to his game.

I think it's a measure of how far we've fallen that we're rating Fred as one of our best midfielders. And I'd agree with that, he has been one of our best midfielders recently.
 

romufc

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I've always rated Fletcher and Carrick. I don't rate Fred. He's got nothing on those two. Carrick especially. Fred doesn't have the same intelligence as Carrick had, and far less composure on the ball. There's no finesse or thought to his game.

I think it's a measure of how far we've fallen that we're rating Fred as one of our best midfielders. And I'd agree with that, he has been one of our best midfielders recently.
I wonder if thats what you were saying when Carrick lost the ball outside our box for Yaya to rob him in the FA cup semi final?
 

NinjaZombie

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I wonder if thats what you were saying when Carrick lost the ball outside our box for Yaya to rob him in the FA cup semi final?
Eh. These things happen once in a while. Carrick was class. There's a gif out there of Van Persie miskicking the ball and hopelessly flailing. Does that make him a bad player?

As it is now, I don't have a lot of confidence whenever Fred receives the ball.
 

romufc

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Eh. These things happen once in a while. Carrick was class. There's a gif out there of Van Persie miskicking the ball and hopelessly flailing. Does that make him a bad player?

As it is now, I don't have a lot of confidence whenever Fred receives the ball.
These things happen. Well, how many goals have come from Fred losing the ball? Compare to how many goals we have scored from Fred pressing?

Look at the goal against Everton, came from a line breaking pass from Fred.
 

Bwuk

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Fred shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence as Carrick. Carrick was so much better than him it’s not even close.
 

Irwin99

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I've always rated Fred but come on, he's not at Carrick's level and he's several levels below Keane's, Scholes and Ince's.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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No I wasn’t. I am sure this thread would be totally different had his blunder cost 2 points.
But it didn’t. You could have also blame Rashford for missing a one on one chance from Fred’s passing. It could also cost us 2-3 points.

In reality, we would have never be in control and took the 2-1 lead before 93rd minute without Fred in midfield. That’s the key of winning, winning the midfield battle which what we did against Everton and you shouldn’t ignore this which is why this thread exists because people like you ignore the reason how we were able to win.

And let me reminds you two of Bruno’s goal came from Fred build up play.
first goal: Fred -> Rashford -> Bruno -> Fred -> Rashford -> Fred -> Mata -> Rashford -> Mata -> Shaw -> Bruno’s goal
second goal: Fred -> Rashford -> Bruno‘s goal
 

MikeeMike

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But it didn’t. You could have also blame Rashford for missing a one on one chance from Fred’s passing. It could also cost us 2-3 points.

In reality, we would have never be in control and took the 2-1 lead before 93rd minute without Fred in midfield. That’s the key of winning, winning the midfield battle which what we did against Everton and you shouldn’t ignore this which is why this thread exists because people like you ignore the reason how we were able to win.

And let me reminds you two of Bruno’s goal came from Fred build up play.
first goal: Fred -> Rashford -> Bruno -> Fred -> Rashford -> Fred -> Mata -> Rashford -> Mata -> Shaw -> Bruno’s goal
second goal: Fred -> Rashford -> Bruno‘s goal
The fact is, his blunder in added time could have cost us 2 points. The thread title states an opinion. I hope this forum allows me to debate objectively.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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The fact is, his blunder in added time could have cost us 2 points. The thread title states an opinion. I hope this forum allows me to debate objectively.
Fact is what happened and what you said is not fact but assumption with big IF because it didn’t happen, players like McT, Tuanzebe, Maguire could have block the shot and DDG could have save it because it was an outside box shot with low xG.

The fact is we won the match because we won the midfield battle and Fred was part of the midfield.