The majority of fans would prefer this option including myself, but we don't call the shots and the club can't sell Pogba if no one makes an offer. So we have 2 options, play Fred OR Pogba, or try and create a system that works with both players behind Bruno. This thread is all about discussing how the second option could work, because it still has big potential. Pogba and Bruno in the same midfield, that's a lot of creativity and finesse.
Fred & Pogba behind Fernandes? Will it work?
- Thread starter luke511
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Fair enough but I was not suggesting getting mediocre players. There are box to box players who do more then defend plus if Pogba does not want to be here and his head is not at United them give him the boot.
Pogba is going this summer I'm certain of it, Ole knows he's bad news and will try and use any potential cash made from a Pogba deal to find further improvements.
There is enough potential in a midfield of Mctomminey, Fred and Fernandes. All compliment each other really well and like others have said why break up what was working so well recently.
Matic as cover and maybe a further addition to replace Periera who I think will be moved on and we're in business.
There is enough potential in a midfield of Mctomminey, Fred and Fernandes. All compliment each other really well and like others have said why break up what was working so well recently.
Matic as cover and maybe a further addition to replace Periera who I think will be moved on and we're in business.
It wasnt 2 man midfield anyway. When you’re lining up with a hard working CM at LM then you’re effectively playing 3 in midfield. He had Kante and Matuidi to do all the hard work for him.
For it too work you need a proper DM to do all the dirty work and have Bruno and Pogba constantly interchanging. Possibly Pogba dictating more from deep as he is a better passer and have Bruno is the more attacking one.
I agree I think it COULD work because the talent is there BUT its harder to Make it work with a disgruntled star.
Those 2 did ALL the work as you said. Pogba had a free role In that midfield and at United he would have to put his share of the work in and I dont see that happening.
@SportingCP96
Regarding selling a disgruntled Pogba and investing the money on a holding player and another midfielder: That's the best-case scenario, imho, if we have identified our targets and approached their agents.
Regarding selling a disgruntled Pogba and investing the money on a holding player and another midfielder: That's the best-case scenario, imho, if we have identified our targets and approached their agents.
France don't just play Kante and Pogba in the midfield with Griezmann in front of them. They play M'bappe on the right, who's a beast of pace and technique that will keep any opposition FB in check. They also have Matuidi on the left side to tuck in and operate as a central midfielder. These two things allow Pogba more freedom of movement and create vital space and time on the ball for him to do his thing. Finally, Griezmann, who's brilliant at operating in the spaces between the lines is being partnered with a target man who's constantly harassing the opposition CBs, thus making it easier for Griezmann to find the pockets of space he needs. Can we replicate this? But most importantly, do we want to replicate this? Behind the glamour of their success, should it matter that we're talking about NT competitions where the teams aren't drilled to the point of perfection, the managers aren't as good as those in club football and most of them set up their respective sides in a very conservative way? Furthermore, have people actually watched France play? One of the main reasons their system works is because Descamps rarely takes any risks. When they don't score an early goal, their games against the "small teams" are a cure for insomnia. Is this what we want for United?
That's also fair, but dependent on if he's disgruntled as you guys say, or simply wants better players to play with.
Now that we've brought in Bruno and had a bit of an uptick people forget just how much we struggled in midtable with the likes of Lingard, Pereira, Mata, and Young. Of course a top player wouldn't be happy with that situation. If we continue bringing in players with the caliber and impact of Bruno, then I don't see why he would be disgruntled.
Also, Fred is a defensive box to box who does more than defend, so we may not need to go to the market for that. But regardless, we do need a DM as Fred can't play that role by himself. He usually needs either Scott or Matic to help him shine, so we won't be able to avoid that issue. Unless Scott develops quickly this coming season, which isn't out of the realms of possibility.
And you don't think the fact that we got 2 defensive type full back as well as Rashford who has similar asset/benefits as M'bappe won't allow Pogba more freedom of movement and does his thing? On top of it if whether we have Sancho or James, either of them offer something that will also keep any opposition FB in alert. Bruno is also not exactly a pure attacker like Griezmann or Reus, he's more in a midfield category and operate more like a playmaker rather than second striker.
There are many ways that you can think to make it work.
To be more specifically, it isn't about what we want for United but what we expect from Ole. What people want is Pogba to play in different role, but in reality is that Ole had been using him as a double pivot this season.
The reason why Ole & Descamps wanted Pogba to operate deep are for same reason because he has the ability to come deep, pick the ball & find his team mate with his passing ability, which is why I used the France comparison as a reference.
This has been my wish. If we can sell him for 90m plus we would use that money to get Grealish and one of Partey Zakaria or Phillips. Pogba would have solved our midfield. With Grealish Bruno Partey Fred Mctominay Matic we would have depth and quality. We also wouldn't have to worry about how Pogba would fit in with Fred and Bruno. Partey/Zakaria would just take Pogbas place and the midfield would be balanced. Unfortunately I think the chances of Pogba staying are higher than anybody bidding 90m plus for him this summer
I hope it can work. By the looks of things, Pogba will stay as nobody can really look to finance the deal right now, and all signs point to him staying at United for at least another season.
However, I don't think Fred, Pogba and Bruno can work too well together. While Fred has been great, he does have that potential to be manhandled and overwhelmed constantly.
McTominayaybe could act as the alternative, until we sign a DM, or even Matic as a shield. But I don't see it working with Fred.
As for Pogba, I'm not sure how he fits. When Ole first showed up, Pogba showed incredible willingness to track back, and didn't look as positionally inept as he'd looked under Jose, or after the downturn in performance under Ole.
Also, I remember taking real note of Pogba when Juve played Real in the CL, and although he would act as the most advanced of the midfield, he was frequently running back to bully and play a part in the defensive phase, before driving forward into the attacking phase. His incredible physicality means he can be more than accustomed to the role as well.
When he first showed up at United, I always hoped he'd take up a role similar to the way Yaya Toure dominated the midfield for City, when he was on form.
I can't see why Pogba can't take on the role. He has all the traits necessary to be the most dominant force. Unless he doesn't have a mature personality and willingness to learn and develop(which has already been proven not to be the case) , I don't see why he can't play a bigger, yet disciplined role in midfield.
However, I don't think Fred, Pogba and Bruno can work too well together. While Fred has been great, he does have that potential to be manhandled and overwhelmed constantly.
McTominayaybe could act as the alternative, until we sign a DM, or even Matic as a shield. But I don't see it working with Fred.
As for Pogba, I'm not sure how he fits. When Ole first showed up, Pogba showed incredible willingness to track back, and didn't look as positionally inept as he'd looked under Jose, or after the downturn in performance under Ole.
Also, I remember taking real note of Pogba when Juve played Real in the CL, and although he would act as the most advanced of the midfield, he was frequently running back to bully and play a part in the defensive phase, before driving forward into the attacking phase. His incredible physicality means he can be more than accustomed to the role as well.
When he first showed up at United, I always hoped he'd take up a role similar to the way Yaya Toure dominated the midfield for City, when he was on form.
I can't see why Pogba can't take on the role. He has all the traits necessary to be the most dominant force. Unless he doesn't have a mature personality and willingness to learn and develop(which has already been proven not to be the case) , I don't see why he can't play a bigger, yet disciplined role in midfield.
France's tactics are ultra-defensive. They approach all games in a very cautious manner and when the opposition plays with 10 men behind the ball, they just rely on the quality of their players to win a narrow contest. They play types of games where Pogba's weaknesses can be swept under the rug if his two or three moments of magic do the job for France. If we wanted that, we might as well have kept LvG or Mourinho since they understand tactics such as these more than Solskjaer ever will.
And no, we don't have the personnel to create the best environment for Pogba and we don't have the personnel to attack with three and a half players and win matches, like France, either. That's why Pogba fell out with Mourinho and he still considers leaving us. And because he is a player of undeniable quality and we are/were a club in disarray in which good footballers look like pub players because we can't create roles for them on the pitch, there's a debate to be had. Do we build a team around him or do we let him go and invest the money elsewhere? Which is the best way to move forward? We still rely on him to do a lot of things for us in all thirds of the pitch. All the stick he gets on here by our fans is because, whenever he starts and we drop points, he's not the one who gets on the ball in deep areas, carries it forward on his own and then serves an assist on the plate for someone to score a goal. This is because we have fundamental issues as a team in all those areas. The French have similar issues but nobody talks about them because they play in competitions where a 0-0 scoreline with very few chances created isn't exactly the end of the world.
I won't get into a player by player comparison, I'll just say that i don't agree either with the Rashford-M'bappe comparison or with the Kante-Fred one some others mentioned. One of the things that make the Frenchman special is that he can be a menace even if he receives the ball out-wide while Rashford's influence deteriorates as you move him away from the box. That's why his best position is on the left where he can cut inside and occupy the left half-space. Get Sancho, yes. Start messing with Rashford's position, please no. I've had enough of managers tinkering all the time with players' roles like alchemists in search of the philosopher's stone.
I'm not arguing that Pogba can't play deeper. In fact, i believe that's his best position. The question of the OP was whether our current midfield options allow us to play both Bruno and Pogba. My opinion is that we can't and i explained it in another post. The notion that it can work ignores the fact that Fred has started to look like a proper footballer with either Matic or McT and it shoehorns him in a role that is not his best. It also ignores the stability and the options a holding midfielder who can drop deep an operate as a defender, like Matic, offers in terms of maintaining a solid back-four line and allowing the FBs to move forward.
Solskjaer wants Pogba deep because a) his vision is sublime and b) in his system the RW hugs the touchline (James), the forward and the #10 interchange positions and with Rashford lurking in the left half-space, ready to attack the far post, they all can push the opposition defence back. This can open up space for Pogba and give him time on the ball to either cross, look for a neat one-two or attack the box himself. The problems start to occur because our attackers can't protect the ball under pressure and our defenders/midfielders can drown in a spoonful of water when Pogba's marked and the have to move the ball forward on their own. The other problem is that Solskjaer's a very courageous plan. Not like Descamps'. At all. At full stretch, it looks like a 2-3-5 with the deepest of the three in the midfield and the one who will have to drop deep and defend in the box so that we can maintain a back-four being Fred.
As i mentioned in my first post on this thread, it will be madness to go into next season with the same midfield options. We had found some good form but the big wins against piss poor sides like LASK, Tranmere and Brugge have created a sense that everything's been worked out which is not the case. Being in an upward trajectory and actually achieving your endgame are two entirely different things.
Pogba in a midfield 2 will always end in tears unless you sacrifice one of your wide players to tuck in and act as an extra midfielder, which is something I don't see us doing if the plan is Rashford on the left and Sancho on the right.
The only way to really fit Pogba in this side is to get a proper DM like Zakaria or Ndidi in to act as a safety net with Pogba and Bruno ahead of him, but if Ole is hellbent on playing 4-2-3-1 then it's better to move Pogba on and get a CM that actually suits playing in a double pivot.
The only way to really fit Pogba in this side is to get a proper DM like Zakaria or Ndidi in to act as a safety net with Pogba and Bruno ahead of him, but if Ole is hellbent on playing 4-2-3-1 then it's better to move Pogba on and get a CM that actually suits playing in a double pivot.
Are we ignoring the Bruno role in defense? I don't think we need out an out number 10. Playing a Midfield 3 of Pogba,Bruno and Fred should be fine against most teams. If we can find a better CDM then Pogba on the left and Bruno on the right with front 3 would be quite balanced team as both of our fullbacks are also good defender. Obviously there will be no short quality in attack with Pogba and Bruno creating chances.
If we keep Pogba then we should invest in defensive midfielder and right winger for this window. With out goings we can keep our spending around 90-100m. A bit higher if Bellingham decides to join.
If we keep Pogba then we should invest in defensive midfielder and right winger for this window. With out goings we can keep our spending around 90-100m. A bit higher if Bellingham decides to join.
It's looks like you are not reading my post at all. I said this before and I'll said it again, I used France as reference of the both Deschamps & Ole want to play Pogba deep for same reason so they can have a player who is capable to come deep, get the ball & bring it out to the attackers. Not saying we have the same concept as France.
To balance the whole team with Pogba in the deeper role doesn't always mean we need to play like France. There are many ways which I had explained in my previous post that we have 2 defensive full back who are capable to cover in whichever sides (left or right) that Pogba will play. Bissaka's incredible defensive ability & recovery will benefit Pogba if he plays in our right side. Shaw who tends to sit deep rather than overlapping can be instructed to sit deep more often to help Pogba as well in he plays in our left side.
We are having different team & different manager as well as playing style compared to Mourinho era. I don't see the comparison just because we are playing in the same formation doesn't mean the style & players what we got are the same.
The sooner Pogba goes the better, he doesnt want to be at United so why try and hang on to him? Besides which, Bruno Fernandez has been a far better signing and actually wants to be at United and the team is built around him, playing Pogba will only unsettle things, and he'll continue whining on about leaving.
I read your post and i answered to it. From what we've seen already from Solskjaer, he doesn't want the FBs to stay deep all the time. Either the wide attackers stay wide and Bruno and Pogba push into the half-spaces or the wide attackers tuck inside and it's the FBs who must provide width on the overlap. In the first case, the FBs do what you suggest, in the second it's up to the midfield to provide cover (how many times have we seen Fred/McT running like crazy to cover in the FB positions?). It creates variety which is good. Having either no width (with both FBs staying deep) or using the wingers for width and pushing the midfielders higher up the pitch leaves us vulnerable to counter attacks because, as i mentioned earlier, we aren't very good at keeping the ball under pressure and recycling it in the attacking half. It's been the story of our season.
Any good midfield needs a good structure. Pogba is very suspect positionally. Putting him beside Fred, who also lacks positional discipline or McT, who's very inexperienced, is asking for trouble. In Fred's case, you place a lot responsibility on the Brazilian's shoulders.
People keep going on about Pogba this and Bruno that and how life is going to be wonderful but being able to play a perfect through ball is not the same as setting the tempo and keeping the whole team going. That's what makes Pogba such a frustrating footballer. He can play the perfect pass but he can't dictate from deep. You don't only need to protect him defensively, you also need to create pockets of space for him and give him time on the ball. At Juventus, he had Pirlo doing the play-making and Marchisio-Vidal doing the heavy lifting. In the NT he has Matuidi tucking inside to be a third midfielder and Kante who's excellent at reading the opponent's plays. And i keep bringing France up because they don't play good football 8/10 times and they often struggle to open up defences. With Pogba trying to dictate things from a deeper position, that is. They win things because they are very solid defensively.
But he doesnt want to play for United, not in any formation. Pogba has never really wanted to be at United at all, SAF saw that nearly 10 years ago and got shot of him; all that "return of the prodigal son" crap was just that, crap; I imagine being the most expensive signing in history played to his ego and thats why he signed. The sooner hes unsigned the better.
A lot of people and I'm sure both of us should agree to this that our full backs like Bissaka and especially Shaw are not exactly attacking full back. Sometime we also questioned why they don't even overlap more often this season. That should also give you message that Ole is flexible with his choice of FB on how he wants them to play. If you watch us play, you often see when our full back went overlap, Pogba tends to stay deep to provide cover while when the midfield like Pogba or Scott or Fred is the one advanced to attacking task, one of the full back at least sit deeper.
My point is not just referring to your post but also the concern how people think there is no balance in the idea due to Pogba's defensive weakness which is why I also mentioned about the cover/protection.
Bruno can tucking to be a third midfielder, his role is different to Griezmann.
Full back can cover when Pogba decided to advanced to attacking task.
Fred can also do Pogba's job in passing if Pogba is not getting the space he's getting or being marked which shows more flexibility in our XI when both Fred & Pogba are playing together.
And honestly, defensively we have been very good this season.
Like I said before there are many ways to make it works and how this Fred-Pogba duo behind Bruno with other players we have can result in benefits for us especially against the low block team.
I get the feeling we're overlooking the likelihood of Ole making the 4-4-2 diamond his first choice. We like to bring up how Pogba was at his best playing LCM during our hot streak when Ole first came but it was the whole team that was playing so well not just Pogba and we used the 4-4-2 diamond during that period. We also went back to it briefly in a recent game against Everton
Why even bother thinking Pogba in this system? He's shown to have his focus elsewhere on and off the pitch. Get rid and build something solid that lasts longer.
Pogba's not worthy of our time with all the BS he's given us. I don't care if he's talented. His focus elsewhere is poison and demotivating for his teammates.
Pogba's not worthy of our time with all the BS he's given us. I don't care if he's talented. His focus elsewhere is poison and demotivating for his teammates.
It's won't work, that is why we need a proper CDM. Someone like Ndidi, Partey or Zakaria imo.
Tell that to Bruno and Ighalo who have said they can't wait to play with him
For like 6 games until they realise he has his mind on Real Madrid and his brother starts acting his mouthpiece again
Aren't they? Fernandinho is arguably the best DM in the world, certainly top 5. And De Bruyne and the Silvas may not be naturals but they are hard working, brave and intelligent (football wise at least Kevin!).
Much as I love Fred and McT I wouldn't play either of them at CB, whereas I'd have no qualms about having Fernandinho there if required. He's just a level above defensively, and probably better on the ball too in fairness.
I think Pogba and Bruno are better defensively than the other two though.
This, although Matic is past it and not sure that McT can play that role.
Not sure about that. Maybe Pogba on top form I suppose, he is capable of bullying any midfielder out of the game, but De Bruyne can also be pretty physical and is perhaps slightly more difficult to run off without him tracking you. I do agree that Bruno is very capable defensively but then so was Bernardo SIlva last year, he's a very tenacious player and wins the ball back well.
I'm not saying you're flat out wrong by the way, I just don't see a marked difference between the 2 midfields defensively other than Fernandinho vs Fred/McT, which for me is just not a fair fight because Fernandinho is so good. Luckily for us Pep is a mentalist and plays one of the best DMs in the world at CB though!
The advantage of having Fred & Pogba in pivot role behind Bruno means adding creativity in our team especially against low block as well as increasing the chance of taking off the burden that Pogba has been carrying all this time. And it seems some people didn't realise this.
Fred is capable to do defensive work, the stats also show similarity number of tackles & interception to Kante this season. However, that's not the main impact Fred has on Pogba. It's actually his ability to pass the ball to bring the ball out from deep area to our attackers. This was something that we always rely on Pogba, opposition team know this and that's why Pogba tends to be marked or not getting enough space in order to stop us to bring the ball forward. With Fred in the team now and show he had adapted with the league, this where now we don't need to keep pass the ball to Pogba anymore which makes us to be less predictable.
Bruno on the other hand also has the similar impact of what Fred does on Pogba. Pogba was our only creative player, which means opposition team also aware if they can stop him, we struggle to create chance. With Bruno in the team now, their idea of stopping Pogba to stop us creating chance won't work anymore.
If people are concern of what will happen if we play against top opposition then this is the good thing of having manager who can be flexible in the formation. We often see the manager changes the formation to 5 defense which is 352 to add more balance in the team. Honestly, it'll work even without pure CDM and there are benefits as I already explained.
Definitely won't work. Fred will be left alone to defend against counters. Pogba is too much of a passenger off the ball to work in such role.
Pogba has only one role to play at United at the moment and that's on the bench for Bruno whenever he's absent. Scott and Fred together are very important to keep our midfield solid enough.
Pogba has only one role to play at United at the moment and that's on the bench for Bruno whenever he's absent. Scott and Fred together are very important to keep our midfield solid enough.
Tbh it's not crazy at all. Probably the best for everyone involved imho.
What about well known penis formation that was used by city under Mancini at some point?
- -Scott-Fred
-Pogba-Bruno
Martial-Rashford
- -Scott-Fred
-Pogba-Bruno
Martial-Rashford
Something like this may work, would be best to swap Pogba and Bruno around in order for Pogba to play running into the left channel, which by all accounts is his preferred position and where he played at Juve.
Surely we don't need two holding midfields? Which is just as well considering Pogba is not a holding midfielder.
-----------------------CDM--------------------
---Bruno------------------------------Pogba---
Our only issue is that we don't have a proper CDM. Matic/Fred/McTominay are not good enough to do that role on their own. This is where we need to invest. Target someone that can do that role and link the play from defence to the two boys in front. We have wasted Pogba for long enough already. Why can't we play him in his best position?
-----------------------CDM--------------------
---Bruno------------------------------Pogba---
Our only issue is that we don't have a proper CDM. Matic/Fred/McTominay are not good enough to do that role on their own. This is where we need to invest. Target someone that can do that role and link the play from defence to the two boys in front. We have wasted Pogba for long enough already. Why can't we play him in his best position?
Solskjaer on whether Bruno and Pogba can play together: "Good players can always play together, so definitely, they can - it's a big yes."
I think the recipe to success in midfield is to play Pogba and Bruno as two number eights in front of a specialist number six, just like City and Pool. Partey would obviously be a dream come true, but I look at Zakaria as the realistic option to balance out our midfield. Someone who’s strengths are shielding the back four as well as getting the ball to the creative players in space to operate.
Against many teams it will probably work, against the tougher teams I'm not sure. In the end we will not know until we try it. I think there is a good chance that the two could really gel together and make a great pairing. They both like quick one-two passing and that's one main reason Scholes and Carrick worked well together. Smart, skillful players teamed up in midfield can transform a team into world beaters. I personally can't wait to see it and really hope I don't have to wait till August.
We know Bruno can play back or up effectively. Against tougher teams, Ole might pair Bruno with either McT or Fred as DMs and give Pogba freedom.
We know Bruno can play back or up effectively. Against tougher teams, Ole might pair Bruno with either McT or Fred as DMs and give Pogba freedom.
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Fernandes and Pogba isn't the dilemma, it's whether Fred can maintain his game as the deepest midfielder out of the 3.
Fred & McTominay behind Fernandes will do just fine for me. Sell Pogba and reinvest in areas we need strengthening. The guy doesnt want to be here