French pension strikes

JPRouve

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That's what tax is there for. Problem is the uk keeps voting for a party that always wants to lower tax and make cuts to balance books. it's that simple
But that's the issue, the ratio between workers and non workers doesn't allow the system to work. Just an example with the subject of this thread, the SNCF has 258k pensioners for 137k workers.
 

JPRouve

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I was told the law stating the relatively early retirement age for train drivers In France was made in the distant past when working on a train meant breathing in lots of coal dust with all the consequences for life expectancy that entailed.
I missed your post but yes, these advantages are from the early 20th century and were meant to compensate for the difficult conditions of work especially for the chauffeur(the one putting coal in). These compensations have been kept on top of the ability to retire earlier than normal even though the context is totally different today.
 

Stanley Road

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But that's the issue, the ratio between workers and non workers doesn't allow the system to work. Just an example with the subject of this thread, the SNCF has 258k pensioners for 137k workers.
When i was 20 i was a postman on 108 quid a week and i paid 33% tax on that, i imagine that same salary is taxed at 20% today. It's now too late to fix, years of low tax have seen to that.
 

11101

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That's what tax is there for. Problem is the uk keeps voting for a party that always wants to lower tax and make cuts to balance books. it's that simple
To cover the ageing population and keep the same retirement age we would practically need to tax everything we earn. The cost is well beyond anything current.
 

sun_tzu

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That's what tax is there for. Problem is the uk keeps voting for a party that always wants to lower tax and make cuts to balance books. it's that simple
Demographics are the driver
When our pension was set up it was about 12 people working for each retired
It's going to be more like 2 working for each retired in about 30 years

Basically it's not increase taxes or increase retirement age... Both are needed and it's not just a European thing... It's worldwide



 

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Demographics are the driver
When our pension was set up it was about 12 people working for each retired
It's going to be more like 2 working for each retired in about 30 years

Basically it's not increase taxes or increase retirement age... Both are needed and it's not just a European thing... It's worldwide



I can understand Japan and the European countries but I'm surprised the projections for working age adults are so low for India. I recently read an NYT piece that suggested there are currently around 650M in the population in the teen to 20s years. Unless the population growth is declining or there's a gender bias, it can't be lower than it is now?
 

sun_tzu

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I can understand Japan and the European countries but I'm surprised the projections for working age adults are so low for India. I recently read an NYT piece that suggested there are currently around 650M in the population in the teen to 20s years. Unless the population growth is declining or there's a gender bias, it can't be lower than it is now?
Life expectancy I think
Instead of people having a couple of years in retirement most will have 10... There is a 5* increase straight away

https://www.google.com/search?q=lif...23#imgrc=EywwrqUI3LlbMM&imgdii=EQrDT0GrRS_XwM
 

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Who is going to pay for it though? NHS budgets, benefits and the rest pale in comparison to the pension obligations of an ageing population.
Borrowing seems to be the answer. It's not real borrowing of course, because it's an investment. And interest rates are low. At the moment.
 

sullydnl

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Isn't the counter effect, then higher unemployment in the younger demographics?
One would imagine so but intuitively that seems like it would be less of a societal issue than keeping the retirement age the same and imposing an enormous additional tax burden on that younger demographic.

I'm sure there have been plenty of studies done on this so maybe someone with a background in economics will enlighten us as to how that balance would tend to play out. As mentioned above though, in many countries the demographic shift is stark enough that both a later retirement age and increased taxes will be the likely outcome.
 

Buster15

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But that's the issue, the ratio between workers and non workers doesn't allow the system to work. Just an example with the subject of this thread, the SNCF has 258k pensioners for 137k workers.
Essentially that is correct. In times of what could be called normal inflation, and where the value of investments was growing at around 3 to 4%, the value of a pension would be sufficient to be self sustaining. Mainly because of the attrition of the pension population.
But as people are living longer and inflation is low, that becomes a real problem requiring a cash injection from the company.
 

11101

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Takings have have hardly changed because rates have fallen
No they haven't. The burden has just shifted more onto higher rate taxpayers. Lower wage earners pay less now but higher earners pay more.
 

Jippy

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Essentially that is correct. In times of what could be called normal inflation, and where the value of investments was growing at around 3 to 4%, the value of a pension would be sufficient to be self sustaining. Mainly because of the attrition of the pension population.
But as people are living longer and inflation is low, that becomes a real problem requiring a cash injection from the company.
It's obviously linked to inflation, but zero interest rates have been the crippler for pension schemes. Gilt returns are shooting way under the rise in liabilities.
 

André Dominguez

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So... there billions of tax payers to save private banks from bankrupt, but there's no money to sustain pension funds / healthcare / you name it ( the money "loaned" to save banks from bankrupting would feed the entire social system for decades)
 

JPRouve

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So... there billions of tax payers to save private banks from bankrupt, but there's no money to sustain pension funds / healthcare / you name it ( the money "loaned" to save banks from bankrupting would feed the entire social system for decades)
In France the money loaned was with interest and allowed to make money on the back of these banks, around 3 billions.
 

André Dominguez

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In France the money loaned was with interest and allowed to make money on the back of these banks, around 3 billions.
In France there were no bankrupted banks? Money loaned to banks that eventually bankrupted? That was the major problem here in PT.
 

JPRouve

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In France there were no bankrupted banks? Money loaned to banks that eventually bankrupted? That was the major problem here in PT.
Technically there is Dexia but that wouldn't cover a month of the pension scheme let alone decades.
 

André Dominguez

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Technically there is Dexia but that wouldn't cover a month of the pension scheme let alone decades.
You guys were better organized (or less corrupt :D ) than us. Lots of banks bankrupted even after getting "rescue fund" money, which created a hole of the size of dozens of millions.

On other hand, 50% of the banks who also received help are still on red, which means they are barely paying interests at the moment.

And then there was nationalizing one of the biggest banks of the country ( rookie mistake, but hey, it's PT politicians :D ) that create a endless pit where money will never surface again :D
 

broccoli

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Read first 'French prison strikes' and was already envisioning the prisioners refusing to go into their cells as a protest, and heading home instead.
 

JPRouve

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You guys were better organized (or less corrupt :D ) than us. Lots of banks bankrupted even after getting "rescue fund" money, which created a hole of the size of dozens of millions.

On other hand, 50% of the banks who also received help are still on red, which means they are barely paying interests at the moment.

And then there was nationalizing one of the biggest banks of the country ( rookie mistake, but hey, it's PT politicians :D ) that create a endless pit where money will never surface again :D
If I'm not mistaken you are not the only ones in that situation, Spain comes to mind. But in France everyone reimbursed in 2010 or 2011. Now on your initial point, it's important to know that this reform is meant to even things out between public servants and the rest, the former have perks that cost a lot of money and aren't really justified for the most part, particularly at the RATP and SNCF.
 

TwoSheds

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Thing is though, it's not fair to promise one thing to someone all their life and then at the last minute switch it for something different. If I joined the railways for example rather than the fire brigade because I knew I could retire earlier and earn a bit more by doing that, how can you then come along after I've been doing it for 30 years and tell me it's all bollocks and I'm actually getting the same pension as the fireman?

The other thing is, these changes are always negative. They're not going to bump anyone's pension to put them in line, they're just going to knock the big ones back.

If you don't say anything, if you don't strike, you end up with pathetic pensions and salaries like in Portugal. If you do, you end up like France, a prosperous country with lots of holidays and benefits.

France's problem is their infinite bureaucracy and shit government not their willingness to stand up for themselves.
 

JPRouve

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Thing is though, it's not fair to promise one thing to someone all their life and then at the last minute switch it for something different. If I joined the railways for example rather than the fire brigade because I knew I could retire earlier and earn a bit more by doing that, how can you then come along after I've been doing it for 30 years and tell me it's all bollocks and I'm actually getting the same pension as the fireman?

The other thing is, these changes are always negative. They're not going to bump anyone's pension to put them in line, they're just going to knock the big ones back.

If you don't say anything, if you don't strike, you end up with pathetic pensions and salaries like in Portugal. If you do, you end up like France, a prosperous country with lots of holidays and benefits.

France's problem is their infinite bureaucracy and shit government not their willingness to stand up for themselves.
Regarding the first sentence, the proposed reform is supposed to apply to people born in 1975 and after. Also at no point you are getting the same pension than the fireman, pensions aren't unique.
 

11101

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So... there billions of tax payers to save private banks from bankrupt, but there's no money to sustain pension funds / healthcare / you name it ( the money "loaned" to save banks from bankrupting would feed the entire social system for decades)
The banks had been piling money into the system for decades into the run up, from memory in the UK it was something like around 250b per year. The bailouts themselves weren't actually that big of a deal. They also (mostly) paid or will pay it back afterwards.

In the UK the current state pension cost is around 100b and is projected to rise to almost 500b 50 years from now, whilst GDP will only double. @TwoSheds it doesnt matter what is promised. I realise it's unfortunate but we literally cannot afford that.
 

TwoSheds

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Regarding the first sentence, the proposed reform is supposed to apply to people born in 1975 and after. Also at no point you are getting the same pension than the fireman, pensions aren't unique.
They said they were going to do one points based pension for all public sector employees didn't they? That's why they all went on strike before the details were even announced.
 

JPRouve

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They said they were going to do one points based pension for all public sector employees didn't they? That's why they all went on strike before the details were even announced.
No, the points based pension is for everyone born after 1975 and only a minority of civil servants are actually on strike, these are on strike because they will have the same system than everyone else when they currently have advantages.
 

TwoSheds

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The banks had been piling money into the system for decades into the run up, from memory in the UK it was something like around 250b per year. The bailouts themselves weren't actually that big of a deal. They also (mostly) paid or will pay it back afterwards.

In the UK the current state pension cost is around 100b and is projected to rise to almost 500b 50 years from now, whilst GDP will only double. @TwoSheds it doesnt matter what is promised. I realise it's unfortunate but we literally cannot afford that.
Of course it does and of course we can.

It's all funny money, made up as we go along to suit whoever has the most of it. That's what quantitative easing means - create money, give it to rich people. Why not use the QE money to go in the national pension pot, from which it can be invested in money making ventures? Or into a sovereign wealth fund / national investment bank? Nope, it goes into private banks to cover for their incompetence.

Money is just a tool for dividing up the spoils of the economy, if we wanted to use it to pay for good things we could.
 

TwoSheds

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No, the points based pension is for everyone born after 1975 and only a minority of civil servants are actually on strike, these are on strike because they will have the same system than everyone else when they currently have advantages.
So they will be forced into the same scheme as everyone else, isn't that what I said?