Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[sp_107]

Getting outperformed by Gavi - a 17 year old.

Xavi still considers Frenkie as an essential part of the the project. Won’t be sold unless someone bids an absurd amount.

Frenkie, Gavi, Pedri, Nico. Talented midfield.

On top of that Anshu Fati and Dembele but still they are peforming like Burnley over last few months.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I've seen Timber play at RB and CB - I've heard he has also played CDM.

Does he have any resembling to De Jong?

I just ask this because I really want a CB/CDM hybrid player in our team

He has, he is not as good of a passer between the lines, not as good as a dribbler, probably even worse scorer and less press resistent. Which all makes sense as he is a central defender.

But he is very quick, fast, agile, good reading of the game, good tackling, decent in the air with his timing.

I doubt he could play midfield for United soon as he has barely played there for Ajax.

 

[Rob Bowman]

If we were able to get Boubacar and FDJ while shipping out Martail, Cavani, Pogba, Lingard and Mata (now or summer), I would rate that really well.

In the 4-2-2-2

First 2: Boubacar and FDJ (subs Fred and McT)- That is a huge upgrade and great squad players to relay on
Middle 2: Sancho and Bruno (subs DVB and Elanga)- Great starters and room for rotation
Front 2: Ronaldo and Greenwood (subs Rashy and Amad)- Could easily start Rash over Greenwood point being still great quality

Still leave Shola and Dejbri looking for spots... and of course we are looking for that amazing striker this summer *cough*Haaland*cough*

Would reckon good enough for top 4 this year and the potential would be amazing.

 

[Ish]

I'd be all for this signing, even more so if ETH is our number 1 candidate. He'd be great as an 8, next to a DLP type. I think that's his best position, though some might argue he's best as a 6/DM himself.

He was pretty good at Barca last season, iirc - i think form wise and contribution wise, second only to Messi. Barca moving him all over the pitch (in fact, he's played a handful of games very high/wide up the pitch when they've struggled with a lot of their attackers out injured) didn't really allow him to settle, IMO, but he's also young and inconsistency is bound to happen - especially for teams going through a rebuild (United fans should understand this more than most).

Sticky point would be his price and wage - i think he's closer to DDG wages.

 

[Bebestation]

De Jong & De Ligt have all started making noises -

Is there any chance of both being signed? Just wondering if Ten Hag might just straight buy the core of that Ajax team since VDB is already here too.

I know it's unlikely but it is just 2 players, one being a player in a position we need.

 

[CM]

He doesn't do anything of note. This potential transfer feels like the Schneiderlin one all over again.

I didn't rate Schneiderlin, and I don't rate de Jong.

Eh? You don't rate either player therefore they must be the same? Interesting rationale, they aren't remotely similar.

 

[Dolf]

De Jong & De Ligt have all started making noises -

Is there any chance of both being signed? Just wondering if Ten Hag might just straight buy the core of that Ajax team since VDB is already here too.

I know it's unlikely but it is just 2 players, one being a player in a position we need.

Would definitely make us stronger since both would be an upgrade on what we have.
Raiola isn't going to let De Ligt go on a cheap though, and same goes for Barca and Frenkie.

 

[Bennie Blanco]

Eh? You don't rate either player therefore they must be the same? Interesting rationale, they aren't remotely similar.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm just getting the same Schneiderlin vibe here.

Both holding midfielders the caf was desperate to sign. I don't rate them both. Whenever I see de Jong play, I always tend to ask myself. "What does he actually do? "

I don't know.. I never rated Pogba either, and I still don't.

Have a happy Christmas.

 

[appleman]

I've seen Timber play at RB and CB - I've heard he has also played CDM.

Does he have any resembling to De Jong?

I just ask this because I really want a CB/CDM hybrid player in our team

If you want one of those out of the current Ajax team, you're better off with Martinez.

Timber is technical, plus he is stoic and daring/confident. This makes him very reliable at the back, even when it's crowded around him. Especially at his age it's amazing how calm he is and a secure option. I think it really helps that he has Alvarez near him, though. In more physical/tall player leagues he's probably more of an RCB in a 3 at the back type of defender, since he can take up both CB and RB positions and is so technical you can give up one of the midfielders. His twin brother is a CDM, though, and pretty talented as well, but not nearly as special as the one that stayed at Ajax.

But as CB/CDM hybrid you should focus on Martinez (or De Jong). On paper Alvarez is that too, but he needs a more specific role than those too and wouldn't help United out right now as a CB option. I think in general Martinez would be a great buy, both as an excellent (L)CB who is much stronger in the air than his height would make you assume and is very technical and versatile. Plus he always works his ass off.

 

[Bebestation]

If you want one of those out of the current Ajax team, you're better off with Martinez.

Timber is technical, plus he is stoic and daring/confident. This makes him very reliable at the back, even when it's crowded around him. Especially at his age it's amazing how calm he is and a secure option. I think it really helps that he has Alvarez near him, though. In more physical/tall player leagues he's probably more of an RCB in a 3 at the back type of defender, since he can take up both CB and RB positions and is so technical you can give up one of the midfielders. His twin brother is a CDM, though, and pretty talented as well, but not nearly as special as the one that stayed at Ajax.

But as CB/CDM hybrid you should focus on Martinez (or De Jong). On paper Alvarez is that too, but he needs a more specific role than those too and wouldn't help United out right now as a CB option. I think in general Martinez would be a great buy, both as an excellent (L)CB who is much stronger in the air than his height would make you assume and is very technical and versatile. Plus he always works his ass off.

Yeah I've always been interested in Martinez because he seems a very technical play capable of playing CDM and CB - I am also someone who also always likes have a left footed CB rather than having 5 who are all right footed.

Has Martinez ever been linked to a top club in another league- because he is always someone I wonder if I rate in my head highly than other actual clubs do.

 

[VanDeBank]

I've seen Timber play at RB and CB - I've heard he has also played CDM.

Does he have any resembling to De Jong?

I just ask this because I really want a CB/CDM hybrid player in our team

Playing Timber DM or RB is like playing Donny as a DM or De Jong as a CAM. They can do a job there, but it's never ideal.

Timber has all the attributes to be a top CB, except that he's a bit of a midget.

 

[Terranova]

Playing Timber DM or RB is like playing Donny as a DM or De Jong as a CAM. They can do a job there, but it's never ideal.

Timber has all the attributes to be a top CB, except that he's a bit of a midget.

Only a "midget" compared Dutch average height haha

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Only a "midget" compared Dutch average height haha

Nahh 179 is also quite small compared to average central defenders across the world I reckon (except Asia perhaps).. Still think Timber is an absolute monster at central defense.. What a baller..

 

[Red the Bear]

Saw the game and he was kinda underwhelming to be honest , but I just assume that he is playing out of position

What a ragged performance though, they will have a tough season to look forward to something which must be completely new to them as they used to just blow the opposition out 5-0 every game , but now must fight hard to preserve a 1 goal advantage , so it must be not very conducive to showcasing your best capabilities.

 

[Red the Bear]

Only a "midget" compared Dutch average height haha

Nahh 179 is also quite small compared to average central defenders across the world I reckon (except Asia perhaps).. Still think Timber is an absolute monster at central defense.. What a baller..

Come to think of it , over the years the Dutch national team hasn't really been the tallest, in fact i think most of the current European teams are a tad higher than them, which is strange for a country that boasts such a high national average.

 

[VanDeBank]

Come to think of it , over the years the Dutch national team hasn't really been the tallest, in fact i think most of the current European teams are a tad higher than them, which is strange for a country that boasts such a high national average.

Good observation. Maybe the Dutch place more emphasis on technical ability than physical attributes, including in all the youth setups.

 

[Red the Bear]

Good observation. Maybe the Dutch place more emphasis on technical ability than physical attributes, including in all the youth setups.

Yeah , that would explain it to it certain degree . But them actively looking for the smaller more nimble players might not be the best possible idea, Germany and Italy the most dominant European teams have done quite well with the more robust and physical build up of their teams so it certainly won't hurt

 

[croadyman]

Would be a quality signing but only after bringing in at least one of Kessie/Kamara/Zakaria AND one of Rice/Bellingham which looks impossible

 

[Vidyoyo]

Any relation to Paul DeJong?

 

[2ndTouch]

Saw the game and he was kinda underwhelming to be honest ,

I've seen him 5 or 6 times, and I came to this conclusion every single time.

but I just assume that he is playing out of position

That's at least the standard excuse one keeps hearing. "He sucks as a 8, but he's a world beater when put on the 6, I swear".
Definitely not a 60-80m +400k/wk risk I'd be willing to take...

 

[tjarligdrengen]

Would be a good signing, but I’d prefer a (at least) dm. Laimer, Ndidi og maybe Zakaria. And he will not be cheap.
An actual dm and perhaps Bissouma would be good and necessary.

 

[Red the Bear]

I've seen him 5 or 6 times, and I came to this conclusion every single time.



That's at least the standard excuse one keeps hearing. "He sucks as a 8, but he's a world beater when put on the 6, I swear".
Definitely not a 60-80m +400k/wk risk I'd be willing to take...

It's getting genuinely hard to evaluate him as you could see there's something special there ,but that's it , just glimpses as performance wise , he's so very lukewarm . Kinda bizarre as well seeing as how he was the hottest commodity around only 3 years ago so it's generally difficult forming an opinion on him when he has so much coverage going on.

 

[davidmichael]

Would be a good signing, but I’d prefer a (at least) dm. Laimer, Ndidi og maybe Zakaria. And he will not be cheap.
An actual dm and perhaps Bissouma would be good and necessary.

I wish people would stop saying Bissouma seeing as NO CLUB will touch him with his sexual assault charge hanging over him, went from being linked with every top club to absolutely nothing for a reason.

 

[tjarligdrengen]

I wish people would stop saying Bissouma seeing as NO CLUB will touch him with his sexual assault charge hanging over him, went from being linked with every top club to absolutely nothing for a reason.

I wish People would stop judging until proven guilty.. A quick google search showed lots of interested clubs.
But I think your right, many clubs won’t sign him at this moment. But he’s a great player.

But this is a thread for FDJ. Him + an actual dm, yea thanks.

 

[davidmichael]

I wish People would stop judging until proven guilty.. A quick google search showed lots of interested clubs.
But I think your right, many clubs won’t sign him at this moment. But he’s a great player.

But this is a thread for FDJ. Him + an actual dm, yea thanks.

No one has judged him or seen him as guilty but there’s been no links to Bissouma for any club since around mid October and that’s the case for a reason, until the whole thing is done and dusted no club will go near him and you’ve only got to look at things like Ched Evans and Lee Hughes to see what a guilty charge could do to a career as no club wanted to touch them afterwards.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

I've seen him 5 or 6 times, and I came to this conclusion every single time.



That's at least the standard excuse one keeps hearing. "He sucks as a 8, but he's a world beater when put on the 6, I swear".
Definitely not a 60-80m +400k/wk risk I'd be willing to take...

This is a very shallow representation of the truth right, I dont think anyone is saying that, or at least not without nuance..

The thing is, he can play as a 4, 6 or 8 it doesn't mean anything. Those numbers dont mean anything. Pirlo was a 6, but so was Nigel de Jong.. So what does 6 mean? Pogba played as an 8 for France but so did Mark van Bommel for the NL? People making statements based on 6 or 8 are just making lazy statements which dont mean shit.

Frenkie played his best football for Ajax and NL in a double pivot.. For Ajax alongside Lasse Schone who is also a holding midfielder with more technical/passing creative qualities than defensive ones. For NL alongside Marten De Roon who is an oldscool defensive midfielder with more defensive than creative qualities. The common denominator in those sides was that Frenkie was the one who controlled build up from behind and was the main playmaker from behind (deeplying playmaker if you will). Thát is what he is good at in general, and what he is worldclass at when players/teams try to put him under pressure. On the ball he is one of the most press resistant players in the world. Neither for Ajax, nor for NL it was expected of him to stay away from the ball during build up more often than not, to make runs in the opponents box, to provide goals and assists.

And that is exactly what is happening now at Barca. Busquets is their main playmaker from behind and the first one to always get the ball in build up. Frenkie is expected (Both Koeman and Xavi have expressed this at mulitple occassions) to become a more complete midfielder and learn to stay away from the ball, make runs in the opponents box and provide goals and assists. All fair if coaches want to try and develop him into that kind of midfielder, but I personally think its bullshit and a load of crap. Because you are asking him to play in a way he has never shown any réal talent for (he was never a goalscorer or box-to-box player), and you are refusing/denying him to do what he does best... And that's basically whats already been going on now at Barca for almost 2 years, and in those 2 years I don't think he convinced anyone he ís developing into a great box-to-box goalscoring/assistproviding midfielder..

So indeed.. When I look at Frenkie at Barca, I also 9/10 times see a player who just fades into the game, plays a 6 or 6.5 more often than anything else, underwhelming indeed... In that role he is indeed mediocre (based on top-level criteria) and I would never spend that much cash on him if you intend to use him as such.

However, if you intend to play him in a way used at Ajax and NL - regardless of putting the 6 or 8 stamp on it - meaning to use him as the main man in your build up from behind and as main deeplying playmaker, I still believe there is an absolute gem of a worldclass player there and any top club in need of such a player would be a fool not to pick him up if they have the chance.

In my opinion only PSG (Verrati) and Chelsea (Kovacic) don't need him right now..

 

[Red the Bear]

This is a very shallow representation of the truth right, I dont think anyone is saying that, or at least not without nuance..

The thing is, he can play as a 4, 6 or 8 it doesn't mean anything. Those numbers dont mean anything. Pirlo was a 6, but so was Nigel de Jong.. So what does 6 mean? Pogba played as an 8 for France but so did Mark van Bommel for the NL? People making statements based on 6 or 8 are just making lazy statements which dont mean shit.

Frenkie played his best football for Ajax and NL in a double pivot.. For Ajax alongside Lasse Schone who is also a holding midfielder with more technical/passing creative qualities than defensive ones. For NL alongside Marten De Roon who is an oldscool defensive midfielder with more defensive than creative qualities. The common denominator in those sides was that Frenkie was the one who controlled build up from behind and was the main playmaker from behind (deeplying playmaker if you will). Thát is what he is good at in general, and what he is worldclass at when players/teams try to put him under pressure. On the ball he is one of the most press resistant players in the world. Neither for Ajax, nor for NL it was expected of him to stay away from the ball during build up more often than not, to make runs in the opponents box, to provide goals and assists.

And that is exactly what is happening now at Barca. Busquets is their main playmaker from behind and the first one to always get the ball in build up. Frenkie is expected (Both Koeman and Xavi have expressed this at mulitple occassions) to become a more complete midfielder and learn to stay away from the ball, make runs in the opponents box and provide goals and assists. All fair if coaches want to try and develop him into that kind of midfielder, but I personally think its bullshit and a load of crap. Because you are asking him to play in a way he has never shown any réal talent for (he was never a goalscorer or box-to-box player), and you are refusing/denying him to do what he does best... And that's basically whats already been going on now at Barca for almost 2 years, and in those 2 years I don't think he convinced anyone he ís developing into a great box-to-box goalscoring/assistproviding midfielder..

So indeed.. When I look at Frenkie at Barca, I also 9/10 times see a player who just fades into the game, plays a 6 or 6.5 more often than anything else, underwhelming indeed... In that role he is indeed mediocre (based on top-level criteria) and I would never spend that much cash on him if you intend to use him as such.

However, if you intend to play him in a way used at Ajax and NL - regardless of putting the 6 or 8 stamp on it - meaning to use him as the main man in your build up from behind and as main deeplying playmaker, I still believe there is an absolute gem of a worldclass player there and any top club in need of such a player would be a fool not to pick him up if they have the chance.

In my opinion only PSG (Verrati) and Chelsea (Kovacic) don't need him right now..

Hes pretty old now though for a young player , so do you actually think he can evolve his play style?

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Hes pretty old now though for a young player , so do you actually think he can evolve his play style?

No.. Like I said.. He has never shown real exception capabilites for being a box-to-box players who provides actual threat in the opponents box...

Nor do I want him to change though into such a player, as Im a big big big fan of the player he can be/was when used in his strenghts..

 

[Red the Bear]

No.. Like I said.. He has never shown real exception capabilites for being a box-to-box players who provides actual threat in the opponents box...

Nor do I want him to change though into such a player, as Im a big big big fan of the player he can be/was when used in his strenghts..

Well then for either of you or his sake he'd better move on , cause I'm pretty sure he won't get that chance in Barca with the way xavi is setting them up.

 

[2ndTouch]

In my opinion only PSG (Verrati) and Chelsea (Kovacic) don't need him right now..

We (Kimmich) don't need him, City (Rodri) doesn't need him, Liverpool (Thiago) doesn't need him, Real (Kroos) doesn't need him either.
If he can't displace Busquets, how is he supposed to get a sniff on any of the above mentioned players? Bar maybe Utd or Juve I can't think of a truly big club moving for the guy.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

We (Kimmich) don't need him, City (Rodri) doesn't need him, Liverpool (Thiago) doesn't need him, Real (Kroos) doesn't need him either.
If he can't displace Busquets, how is he supposed to get a sniff on any of the above mentioned players? Bar maybe Utd or Juve I can't think of a truly big club moving for the guy.

Not to go into a player vs player discussion, as the point of my post was not being Frenkie being better than this or that players...

I think I was too rash in my statement 'don't need him', meant more like 'could use him'...

(Kimmich.. I dont know exaclty how Kimmich is currently used at Bayern, so if he is playing as a Deeplying playmaker you are probably right though I still think they have a different skillset.. I personally think he is an upgrade over Rodri and Thiago (at least Thiago how he plays 90% of the time for Liverpool), and a different player than Kroos, but indeed with Modric Casemiro and Kroos still performing at top level they dont need him).

edit:
On your Busquets part..

First of all your comment suggests above players are by definition better than Busquets, where Busquets is still one of the best players around on that position. Secondly I dont think it's as simple as that.. It's not like he is not capable to replace Busquets. They both thrive with the same role in the team, but Frenkie is deemed more versatile than Busquets. Thats why they have been trying to fit Frenkie in the team while remaining Busquets his position as-is (he really isn't capable in playing any other role), as they are not ready to drop Busquets as he still puts in class performances, if one of the leaders of the team which provides experience, plus they have bigger problems in their line up to fix.

So indeed like is suggested below:

Frenkie was a unnecessary buy for them to start with as they didnt need him with Busquets still being around. In hindsight especially this move hasn't done Frenkie any good in his development and for that money Barca could have better gotten another player more suited for the role they are using Frenkie in..

So yes.. I think Frenkie should leave Barca..

Well then for either of you or his sake he'd better move on , cause I'm pretty sure he won't get that chance in Barca with the way xavi is setting them up.

 

[VanDeBank]

We (Kimmich) don't need him, City (Rodri) doesn't need him, Liverpool (Thiago) doesn't need him, Real (Kroos) doesn't need him either.
If he can't displace Busquets, how is he supposed to get a sniff on any of the above mentioned players? Bar maybe Utd or Juve I can't think of a truly big club moving for the guy.

Agreed. He isn't better than those. Still a good player that United could really use. Probably better than Neves.

 

[Nish115]

Not to go into a player vs player discussion, as the point of my post was not being Frenkie being better than this or that players...

I think I was too rash in my statement 'don't need him', meant more like 'could use him'...

(Kimmich.. I dont know exaclty how Kimmich is currently used at Bayern, so if he is playing as a Deeplying playmaker you are probably right though I still think they have a different skillset.. I personally think he is an upgrade over Rodri and Thiago (at least Thiago how he plays 90% of the time), and a different player than Kroos, but indeed with Modric Casemiro and Kroos still performing at top level they dont need him).

edit:
On your Busquets part..

First of all your comment suggests above players are by definition better than Busquets, where Busquets is still one of the best players around on that position. Secondly I dont think it's as simple as that.. It's not like he is not capable to replace Busquets. They both thrive with the same role in the team, but Frenkie is deemed more versatile than Busquets. Thats why they have been trying to fit Frenkie in the team while remaining Busquets his position as-is (he really isn't capable in playing any other role), as they are not ready to drop Busquets as he still puts in class performances, if one of the leaders of the team which provides experience, plus they have bigger problems in their line up to fix.

So indeed like is suggested below:

Frenkie was a unnecessary buy for them to start with as they didnt need him with Busquets still being around. In hindsight especially this move hasn't done Frenkie any good in his development and for that money Barca could have better gotten another player more suited for the role they are using Frenkie in..

So yes.. I think Frenkie should leave Barca..

We won't sign him because of Wages, but do you think him next to Partey would work well? Personally I think he'd be perfect for Arsenal. Right age profile, mobile, a deep playmaker. He could come in and be our big midfielder, and one of the missing pieces.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

We won't sign him because of Wages, but do you think him next to Partey would work well? Personally I think he'd be perfect for Arsenal. Right age profile, mobile, a deep playmaker. He could come in and be our big midfielder, and one of the missing pieces.

I dont know Partey well enough as a player to be honest..

 

[croadyman]

Would give us that baller we desperately need in there, however a proper CDM is going to be required first

 

[Red the Bear]

Will be interesting to see how he performs , granda are decent opposition as well so we'll see.

 

[bond19821982]

I dont think he is a CDM as people claim. If he was, he would have replaced Busquets by now.
If ETH takes over, we are getting him for sure. Donny, FDJ would be our midfield options with a pure DM behind them.

If ETH takes over, FDJ and a player like Rice would be signed.

 

[Terranova]

He isn't a CDM, but you don't need one if you have midfielders that work well together and all share in the defensive part. The Ajax '19 team with VDB and De Jong had a midfield with a winger turned attacking midfielder turned aging central midfielder and it still worked really well. Because all 3 of those midfielder did their part defensively and worked well together pressing.

But that said, the reason he hasn't replaced Busquets is because Busquets can only play that role and is still good enough to fit into the team.

 

[Rutan]

Article says Barcelona would take 50m Euros. Get him and Tchouaméni and we are sorted for years. Big outlay initially, obviously, but huge pay-off possible players with world-class potential.

 

[Bebestation]

Article says Barcelona would take 50m Euros. Get him and Tchouaméni and we are sorted for years. Big outlay initially, obviously, but huge pay-off possible players with world-class potential.

Surely this is bullshit.

Every club from Norwich to Newcastle to Man city would go for Frenkie de Jong at 50 m euros