How old is he again? 21?
Gabriel Obertan | 2009/10 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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I don't think Obertan earned his shot, he got it by default because Nani was suspended, Giggs was injured and the likes of Welbeck and Tosic have been sent on loan. If we had an experienced winger who could have played, I don't think Obertan would have made the bench. SAF had no choice but to play him. And when we went down 2-1, SAF had no choice but to try and freshen things up by bringing him on. It was a gamble in less then ideal circumstances and one that didn't pay off.
That being said. I don't blame our loss on Obertan. Everton were better then us before Obertan took the field. I think even if Park had remained we would have still lost that game. I'm also not one to dismiss him as 'gash'. I do however think he's not ready for big games yet (and that's what Everton away at this stage of the season is). I have seen nothing to indicate he has the maturity or self belief that would allow him to have any sort of meaningful impact on a game of this magnitude.
If we were still in the Carling Cup i'd be very happy to have him start. But we're not. We're in a very tough title chase and every game matters. This isn't last year where we had Tevez and Ronaldo who were both potential matchwinners to bail us out. Against Everton we were given a very clear example of what happens to our attacking threat when Rooney has an off day.
I also reject the idea that even a bad performance helps a player. This may be true for mature players. They know how to process a bad performance, they are comfortable knowing that one bad performance isn't the be all and end all, but not so for young talent. This is why I think it's always a gamble to bring on a youngster in a tough away fixture. They don't have the crowd support, and more often then not they fail to make a positive impact on the game. Now, how it effects Obertan is hard to tell. I look at his game and sense he is still playing with a lot of nerves when he turns up for the first team. He looks far more comfortable in the reserves so it's obvious he's got self belief, but playing in front of 35,000 opposition fans who are howling everytime you make a mistake is a easy way to knock a players morale.
Not saying he won't make it or anything but I can't see that talent many here are seeing(talking about how some people compare him to Ronaldo).
He can't control the ball and no where similar/near to when Ronaldo came here first.
He can't control the ball and no where similar/near to when Ronaldo came here first.
He did earn it though. He earned it by being the best player on the pitch in the reserve game on Thursday. It's really that simple.
Obviously, he may not have come off the bench if we weren't trailing (just like Macheda wouldn't have got his game against Villa last season) but that doesn't change the fact Obertan was on the bench on merit.
More important then his technique is his mentality. Ronaldo like Rooney at 18-19 year old was a fearless player. He would do 10 stepovers because he believed he could beat a man everytime. He would shoot on sight because in his mind he could score all the time. With Obertan I don't see that (not in first team games anyway). I see a nervousness. It's obvious he does have good dribbling skills, but yesterday like he did on debut there were times he just kind of fell over the ball. That's a sign of nerves. A sign that perhaps he doesn't believe he is good enough to be out there. That's more to do with his mental strength then technique.
I don't care about his technique at this stage. What I want to see is a bravery in his play, which I so far have not seen. Even when he made a run into the box, he seemed to do it without any kind of plan. It was like the legs were traveling and the mind had been paralyzed with fear. So when he crossed it was too late / blocked / defended.
There are a lot of young players who don't yet have the technique but they are fearless on the pitch, and you can tell they feel they belong out there. That to me is a sure sign of a player who will make it because technical ability will improve, but that mental strength is hard to develop once you're 18-20 years old.
Fletcher is a good example of that. He has never been technically gifted. But his mental strength was immense (it had to be to play alongside the likes of Keano / Scholes ). That's why he's become the player he is today. Not because his dribbling or passing has suddenly become world class.
And he had looked equally as impressive on the previous two outings for the Reserves, getting two assists. He did deserve a place on the bench at least and I don't see why people argue that he didn't, especially when two of our first choice wingers in Giggs and Nani were absent.
The bottomline is we cant afford to blood these young players in the first team now. They are clearly a level above the reserves but still some way off the first team and if given time to mature into that first team place they are bound to put in a fair number of average or underwhelming performances.
Which we cannot afford, first of all financially and secondly as a club we are now expected to be challenging for top honours every season and in order to blood some youngsters it is quite possible the club might go trophyless or without any major honours for a bit.
The likes of Welbeck, Macheda, Obertan, Gibson, all of them imo are suffering the same fate right now. All loan players since they cant buy into the first team right now with the expectations of us and their own levels of steady but not yet dramatic progression.
Which is why Rossi, Shawcross et al couldnt make it here and had to move clubs and now after sufficient gametime at their respective clubs look to be good players who could've played for us now. Only a exceptional young player who either is already ready for first team action or one who shows dramatic improvement can now make it into our first team immediately.
One of the flipsides of success or being a top club.
Which we cannot afford, first of all financially and secondly as a club we are now expected to be challenging for top honours every season and in order to blood some youngsters it is quite possible the club might go trophyless or without any major honours for a bit.
The likes of Welbeck, Macheda, Obertan, Gibson, all of them imo are suffering the same fate right now. All loan players since they cant buy into the first team right now with the expectations of us and their own levels of steady but not yet dramatic progression.
Which is why Rossi, Shawcross et al couldnt make it here and had to move clubs and now after sufficient gametime at their respective clubs look to be good players who could've played for us now. Only a exceptional young player who either is already ready for first team action or one who shows dramatic improvement can now make it into our first team immediately.
One of the flipsides of success or being a top club.
He was on the bench because Nani was suspended, and Giggs is injured. If either of these two players were fit, Obertan wouldn't have made the bench. He could have scored a hat trick and he would still be playing in the reserves. Of course, that's just my opinion and at this stage its pure conjecture, but i find it hard to believe SAF would have picked him ahead of our more experienced wing options.
Not many can emulate Ronaldo so that's a bit of an unfair comparison. I haven't seen enough of Obertan to really judge what he's capable of. He's only been here for five minutes and he's still settling in to a new country, culture, and club. Give his a chance.
Same's true of players like Neville etc., they were never the most technically gifted players of their age group but they left so many "better" players behind them because they worked harder and they wanted it more. Sadly that drive isn't something that can easily be instilled in someone.
Obertan - Talented?
I seriously don't understand the stick he's getting, if you watch his reserve outing you can clearly tell this kids got something.. he has more talent than Park Ji Sung, and at the price we brought him.. if he ends up being a squad player, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
There was shit loads of hype about him, but I for one got the feeling it was in jest.. same with Diouf, no one logically would expect bargain signings like this to make an instant impact on the first team.. heck even Obertans previous manager had doubts about why we were signing him - so for United fans to expect him to be the new Ronaldo instantaeously are obviously living in la la land.
What annoys me however is that instead of judging a player objectively, we get two extremes.. the 'Ronaldo was a average youngster' brigade, who pop up to exempt any youngster from criticism by referring to Ronaldo's days before he could score 40 goals a season. On the other hand we have those who refuse to back any player who is anything less than 100% perfect and has it all.. writing someone off after 15 minutes in a high pressure game, even though they excelled in their last game albeit it was in the reserves.
Lets get the first issue out of the way, the 'Ronaldo' issue.. in his debut alone, he showed more potential than Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Diouf, Valencia combined, thats not to say none of these players will end up being or are world class etc etc.. I'm just saying its a fact, it was an exceptional mind-blowing debut.. I for one was breathless, who the feck is this kid he's going to be one of the best 'no doubt'.
Not everyone fits this category only exceptional players.. likes of Rooney, Messi, Robben, Kaka etc they blew your mind.
Nani has shown us that he has amazing technique, but i'd be lying if I said, he's ever shown anything that has come close to what I witnessed during Ronaldo's early years, Ronaldos talent really stood out in games. Yes he was inconsistent with his final ball, but he'd regularly beat players for fun.. there'd always be moments in the game where you'd remember afterwards and say ah I love Ronaldo, you'd forgive his naiveity due to his endless creation of magic.
This lad was fast, great close control, agility, balance, willing to shoot with either foot and wasn't afraid to head either. Not bad with his crossing and set pieces either. With Ronaldo alot of the fundamentals were already there... however no-one expected that his weaknesses would end up defining him as the player we know today.
His heading/set pieces/shooting were the weakest parts of his game.. yet he worked on these to transform them into strengths, so much so he's arguably the best in the world in all three. Yet it was clear he did have these attributes even though we didn't know how great they would go on to become.
Obertan - Strengths and Weaknesses:
Now to Obertan, I for one see a player with great ball skills, direct dribbling style akin to Kaka, decent touch, someone with footballing intelligence capable of interlinking with his full back and also who can spread the play and hit through balls in the middle of the park. His best quality which I've alluded to already and the one which makes a good prospect to work with is his ability to glide past players at the top level, his rangy physique/balance and fair amount of speed means he can beat players quite easily, he's unlikely to get bullied by any fullback rather like Valencia.
Now to what he lacks andwhat is holding him back from playing for the first team or any top permiership team for that matter... 1) he can't shoot or cross the ball - his technique for kicking a ball is frankly awful, Nani/Valencia/Ronaldo were or are in a different league with regards to this attribute. 2) Close Control - hes a great dribbler in tight spaces, but whilst I've admired his direct running style.. he lacks the control Kaka/Ronaldo/Messi et al show when they are running at speed. Too often he knocks it too far in front of him, whilst he can get away with this in the reserves at the top level adjudging the amount of space available to you and making the most of it without being reckless is of paramount importance and hopefully its just rustiness and inexperience rather than a big flaw in his game. 3) Heading and set pieces - at the moment the goal threat he presents is very little, he needs to work on all facets of goal scoring in order to make himself a genuine attacking article worthy of playing for United. 4) Not a major issue, but I'd like to see him improve his movement off the ball, hes a very intelligent kid and this is something he could really nail in order to make his mark in the first team.
Its very difficult to assess whether this lad has what it takes, the best judges will be the coaches who see him on a regular basis and can see whether there is any evidence of improvement with regards to his shooting/crossing, he's abit old to be learning how to kick the ball now but lets not forget that Ronaldos free kick technique changed rapidly in comparision to his first few years, so maybe it just needs to click for him. I think its the biggest thing holding him back.. as his dribbling etc is good enough in my opinion.
I seriously don't understand the stick he's getting, if you watch his reserve outing you can clearly tell this kids got something.. he has more talent than Park Ji Sung, and at the price we brought him.. if he ends up being a squad player, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
There was shit loads of hype about him, but I for one got the feeling it was in jest.. same with Diouf, no one logically would expect bargain signings like this to make an instant impact on the first team.. heck even Obertans previous manager had doubts about why we were signing him - so for United fans to expect him to be the new Ronaldo instantaeously are obviously living in la la land.
What annoys me however is that instead of judging a player objectively, we get two extremes.. the 'Ronaldo was a average youngster' brigade, who pop up to exempt any youngster from criticism by referring to Ronaldo's days before he could score 40 goals a season. On the other hand we have those who refuse to back any player who is anything less than 100% perfect and has it all.. writing someone off after 15 minutes in a high pressure game, even though they excelled in their last game albeit it was in the reserves.
Lets get the first issue out of the way, the 'Ronaldo' issue.. in his debut alone, he showed more potential than Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Diouf, Valencia combined, thats not to say none of these players will end up being or are world class etc etc.. I'm just saying its a fact, it was an exceptional mind-blowing debut.. I for one was breathless, who the feck is this kid he's going to be one of the best 'no doubt'.
Not everyone fits this category only exceptional players.. likes of Rooney, Messi, Robben, Kaka etc they blew your mind.
Nani has shown us that he has amazing technique, but i'd be lying if I said, he's ever shown anything that has come close to what I witnessed during Ronaldo's early years, Ronaldos talent really stood out in games. Yes he was inconsistent with his final ball, but he'd regularly beat players for fun.. there'd always be moments in the game where you'd remember afterwards and say ah I love Ronaldo, you'd forgive his naiveity due to his endless creation of magic.
This lad was fast, great close control, agility, balance, willing to shoot with either foot and wasn't afraid to head either. Not bad with his crossing and set pieces either. With Ronaldo alot of the fundamentals were already there... however no-one expected that his weaknesses would end up defining him as the player we know today.
His heading/set pieces/shooting were the weakest parts of his game.. yet he worked on these to transform them into strengths, so much so he's arguably the best in the world in all three. Yet it was clear he did have these attributes even though we didn't know how great they would go on to become.
Obertan - Strengths and Weaknesses:
Now to Obertan, I for one see a player with great ball skills, direct dribbling style akin to Kaka, decent touch, someone with footballing intelligence capable of interlinking with his full back and also who can spread the play and hit through balls in the middle of the park. His best quality which I've alluded to already and the one which makes a good prospect to work with is his ability to glide past players at the top level, his rangy physique/balance and fair amount of speed means he can beat players quite easily, he's unlikely to get bullied by any fullback rather like Valencia.
Now to what he lacks andwhat is holding him back from playing for the first team or any top permiership team for that matter... 1) he can't shoot or cross the ball - his technique for kicking a ball is frankly awful, Nani/Valencia/Ronaldo were or are in a different league with regards to this attribute. 2) Close Control - hes a great dribbler in tight spaces, but whilst I've admired his direct running style.. he lacks the control Kaka/Ronaldo/Messi et al show when they are running at speed. Too often he knocks it too far in front of him, whilst he can get away with this in the reserves at the top level adjudging the amount of space available to you and making the most of it without being reckless is of paramount importance and hopefully its just rustiness and inexperience rather than a big flaw in his game. 3) Heading and set pieces - at the moment the goal threat he presents is very little, he needs to work on all facets of goal scoring in order to make himself a genuine attacking article worthy of playing for United. 4) Not a major issue, but I'd like to see him improve his movement off the ball, hes a very intelligent kid and this is something he could really nail in order to make his mark in the first team.
Its very difficult to assess whether this lad has what it takes, the best judges will be the coaches who see him on a regular basis and can see whether there is any evidence of improvement with regards to his shooting/crossing, he's abit old to be learning how to kick the ball now but lets not forget that Ronaldos free kick technique changed rapidly in comparision to his first few years, so maybe it just needs to click for him. I think its the biggest thing holding him back.. as his dribbling etc is good enough in my opinion.
This Ronaldo talk reminded me of the Tevez vs Rossi chat. Not that fair really. It's notl like Ronaldo and Obertan are playing in the same United Side. The team Ronaldo entered into had more targets to hit. Scholes alone was still the midfielder ghosting in the box who could score 10+ goals
Obertans talented, no question. When you're that skillful all people can question is your mentality. Another thing Obertan don't have that we know Ronaldo has, is EGO.
Ronaldo was ready for it at 18. Obertan MIGHT be ready for it after a strech of games. He might have been alittle tired when he came on against Everton because thursday night he went on quite a few lungbusting runs.
Now people might want to slate him while really being sick with worry that we've lost the league now...but it's not his fault. The team in general didn't step up. He had opportunites to do better but he didnt and that's that
Ronaldo is a hard act to follow.
Obertans talented, no question. When you're that skillful all people can question is your mentality. Another thing Obertan don't have that we know Ronaldo has, is EGO.
Ronaldo was ready for it at 18. Obertan MIGHT be ready for it after a strech of games. He might have been alittle tired when he came on against Everton because thursday night he went on quite a few lungbusting runs.
Now people might want to slate him while really being sick with worry that we've lost the league now...but it's not his fault. The team in general didn't step up. He had opportunites to do better but he didnt and that's that
Ronaldo is a hard act to follow.
Thing is for £2-3 Mill, I'd be pretty happy with a souped up version of Ji Sung Park.. OberExpectation in my eyes, the price we paid for him, it doesn't demand instant impact.
And people already start to write him off?
I haven't seen enough of him, especially nothing that really impressed me, but that fella is just 20 and the talent is there, so to write him off is just plain stupid.
I agree with what you're saying but I think thats natural for a 20 year old to feel nervous in big games...not all players at that age have the courage and bravery of Rooney and Ronaldo. I'm glad he's got the talent...the courage will come in a couple of years?
Have you seen him play in the reserves? He's head and shoulders better than other players of his age. He's just need to mature in my opinion.
Struck a cord have we?
The most common judgement of Obertan is that he gives the ball away too much... Okay, that's true, but our star player and top striker did it and nobody seemed to be restricting his talent, Obertan is an attacking placed player, 9 times out of 10 his final ball will not be worthy, it's that one time that he could supply the magic, thus is the run and gun style of attacking football.
As for the second, highly unnecessary novel, I didn't compare him to Rooney at all, infact, i'd like to see you quote me in this thread where I compared him unrealistically to a player past or present... Come on, go ahead now, let's see it.
Get off YOUR high horse and read everything I post in this thread before making some idiotic generalisation that i'm in the same mould of the Ronaldo comparees... I didn't mention it once, the Rooney comment is just saying none of these people claimed Rooney wasn't good enough because he turned over the ball often, so what makes Obertan any different if he has "all the potential"
So I suggest you feck off from a keyboard... And I did go to bed, so I hope you're happy.
Have you read the recent Evans one?
Extremely. Some posters have made themselves look like right idiots. Reputations are inflated and destroyed on here quicker than The Sun at times.
Unfortunately I wasnt able to see enough of Obertan's performance apart from MOTD highlights. But I can gather that it was a disappointment. I think those judging him as a failure so soon are being foolish. We bought him for his potential so dont expect a complete product in his first season. He is such an intelligent player on the ball that I have confidence he can improve his game beyond all recognition. I believe he will be here for a fair amount of years to gain experience and reap the benefits of our coaching staff.
He's probably been fast tracked to our first team too quickly. Just like Macheda people have been assuming they are ready, physically, technically and mentally, to make the difference at such an important stage of the season. I dont expect him to, and neither should you.
Agreed he should be given time. But Saturdays game? Never. We were abysmal in the second half, and to remove Park, and try Obertan was imo stupid.
Why not ? Fergie had full confidence in the lad, and if you've been closely watching the reserves you'll know that Obertan has been doing really well and certainly deserved a chance as Park was fading and his game in Milan where he ran 12km didn't help him look fresh.
It certainly wasn't stupid, but Everton just played better than us that day in which we must accept it.
Obertan is still one for the future, even Ronaldo at 21 wasn't doing the goods week in and week out there but you can certainly see the potential.
He needs to bulk up
Show me one match where Obertan has come to standard.
People should stop comparing young players to Ronaldo
Can see why he is being used sparingly, a long way to go yet. But he must have something about him. Bit of work needed there.
I think we are starting to see why he didn't break through at Bordeaux. Bags and bags of natural talent but seems to run down blind alleys. He's too lightweight at the moment too. He's the dictionary definition of a raw talent.
He needs time, too many people on these boards build our young players up. Then when they struggle for form/confidence the player gets ripped to shreds.
Obertan was always going to struggle this season, but he's shown enough to convince me he has the talent to make it here. We just have to be patient.
Obertan was always going to struggle this season, but he's shown enough to convince me he has the talent to make it here. We just have to be patient.
It's the desperate wish of many on here that we may have found the new ronaldo in one of our young talents or that we might find him soon.
Against Wolfsburg perhaps?
Do people actually think he was poor against Everton?
I thought he done OK.
I thought he done OK.
Berbatov aside he wasn't worse than the rest of them.
I dont understand why there is a sudden rush of negative comments, especially after a fantastic performance for the reserves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Obertan will come good, you have my word.
I don't know what everyone throwing out these negative comments hopes to achieve.
I don't know what everyone throwing out these negative comments hopes to achieve.
He had a couple of decent contributions but he also made one or two fairly rookie errors. Probably slightly worse than "OK" but not terrible either.
Of course, his performace was definitely poor enough to give the spackers who have been on his back since day one a chance to slag him off and say he'll never be good enough for United.
He certainly will. He's been a joy to watch for the reserves, he just needs a bit more experience of playing in the first team because some of his play (albeit against reserve standards) has been first class.
He certainly has the foundations, where the work is required is an area you would think not to be too worrying for the coaching staff. It will come with time.
You all need to appreciate the talent and potential and actually show some support.
Seriously, what do you lot expect for 3 million, a twenty year old George Best. Who knows if he'll make the mark or not, if he does, great, if not, well we are hardly out of pocket. Just give the lad some time.
Definitely not ready for the physical demands of the Premiership yet. I can't see him getting too many opportunities in the first team in the run in.
A good run of games is what this lad needs, his potential is there for everyone to see. A good confidence boosting game and then I think he will go from strength to strength. Will he get a start in CC final? probably not but I for one would like him to.
Nail. Head. Bang!
Yeah, I'm a bit mystified by these attacks. I just watched the game, as I was away on Sat. He was no better or worse than anyone else on the pitch.
My expectations were shockingly low, not just for Obertan, but the entire team based on the threads. People on here calling it the worst performance they've seen in years. fecking amazing. The midfield and strikers played on a level I've seen them play numerous times this year. Could have easily had 4 or 5 goals. Finishing wasn't there.
The defense was shit, which was mostly our second string. Evra had one of his worst games, but overall, it wasn't the horrible performance it has been made out as, particularly Obertan.
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