Garnacho | Officially Chelsea's problem

It'll be fine for Chelsea. They got him at a cut price due to our silly antics, and if he doesn't work out will probably send him to some other club with a definitely not suspicious £80m loan fee tacked on or something.

Don't share the outrage over his moaning after not starting the EL final. Most players would moan about that but then get over it and understand it's the manager's call. The problem is being young and social media being a thing.

Chelsea definitely seemed like a poor choice of destination though. I don't actually think they're all that much better than United and also don't see how he's going to play any more often there.
 
He's downed tools after he didn't get on against us :lol: :lol: .
 
It'll be fine for Chelsea. They got him at a cut price due to our silly antics, and if he doesn't work out will probably send him to some other club with a definitely not suspicious £80m loan fee tacked on or something.

Don't share the outrage over his moaning after not starting the EL final. Most players would moan about that but then get over it and understand it's the manager's call. The problem is being young and social media being a thing.

Chelsea definitely seemed like a poor choice of destination though. I don't actually think they're all that much better than United and also don't see how he's going to play any more often there.
He didn’t just moan about not starting. He insinuated he would now have to consider leaving the club as a result of not starting. That’s quite a significant difference.
 
Wearing a Villa shirt whilst being a United player is a big no no.
Liking tweets or social media post criticising the manager, this happened to ETH aswell.
Brother chirping in, not his fault but the extra family baggage.

It’s clear the manager doesn’t rate him, he was right. Our new signings are clear levels above him in all aspects. You could argue Garnacho could bloom late but he wasn’t happy with being on the bench. Garnacho is a good talent, nothing exceptional.

Also to add, he does inject energy and pace into the team but even then you know it’s never going in. Has many shots but never actually scoring.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Villa shirt incident come after he was told to find a new club?
 
There has clearly been a culture problem at United for quite some time. Part of it is the evolution of money in the game that makes promising young players multi-millionaires before they’ve even achieved anything of note. Twenty five years ago, at his peak, there was talk of Roy Keane leaving United because of his new contract wage demands. In the end he agreed a club record deal to stay at 55k a week. It was seen as a massive contract but for one of the best and most influential midfielders in world football, for by far the biggest club in England.

Fifteen, or so, years later Adnan Januzaj was getting 50k a week for being a promising young player. Recently you’ve got Garnacho, who can best be described as raw, getting 60k a week - plus bonuses - before he’s even accomplished anything. From a manager’s perspective it is almost impossible to manage players with that kind of wealth, who have been molly coddled, and are surrounded by toxic entourages, into having any sense of real work ethic or patience.

The only way - and I mean the only - you can effectively manage and develop such young talent is to have an incredibly robust and positive culture. One that neutralises the money and places all sense of value on how they progress within the group and what they achieve in a sporting context. It requires a collective buy in, and one underpinned by success. If players see that buying in to the culture will lead to success, it makes achieving that buy in, all the more achievable.

United haven’t had that culture for a long time. I see that Amorim, Wilcox, Berrada and co are genuinely trying to build it, but it will take time. These players are mostly young, perhaps not the brightest, and drowning in cash. The downing of tools comes with little or no consequence to their quality of life, and it’s not like they risk missing out on a United trophy haul because that’s rarely been a possibility for nearly a decade.

Right now United should be starting with three, very talented, homegrown players up front in Garnacho, Rashford and Greenwood. We’d be about the only major club in Europe to boast that. And there can be no question that all three were certainly good enough to be top class players and lead this club to glory. You’d think that they’d love and bleed United, having come through the ranks. Now none of them is at the club, and in every case it is for mental - rather than talent - issues.

Garnacho became too big for his boots and started throwing his toys out of the pram when he actually had to fight for his place. Rashford became lazy, stopped working, focused more on his image and PR than football, and Greenwood just turned out to be a really shit human being. You can’t have that much go wrong with three huge academy talents, in such a short space of time and tell me that there isn’t a massive cultural problem at the club. Martial and Sancho followed similar trajectories having joined as young players.

How long this will take to fix is beyond me, but it needs fixing. My suspicion is that drawing a very hard line now is the only way this can be eradicated and a new culture formed, and it does appear at least that this is what the club is doing. But after you let a toxic culture spread for more than ten years, it doesn’t get eradicated overnight. The mass firings, moving on of key personnel, and the ostracism of certain players, all feels to me like life saving surgery.

As for Garnacho, he could be a very good player, if he works his arse off to improve his weaknesses. Nothing about his attitude and personal environment suggests that’s a possibility, so I suspect he won’t amount to much in the end. Youth, as they say, is wasted on the young. By the time these players realise the value of sporting immortality, they’ll be too old to do anything about it. It used to be the case that to make life changing money you’d have to work really hard and achieve a certain standing and value within the game. That itself was an additional motivator. Now you just need to have the early potential to maybe, possibly, one day be a top player. Sancho has had 18 months of good football in his entire career, and he’s long had enough money to last a life time in extreme opulence.
 
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Refreshing to see him stink out another team for now. Maybe he'll bloom once he's a bit older and matured.
 
He didn’t just moan about not starting. He insinuated he would now have to consider leaving the club as a result of not starting. That’s quite a significant difference.

It's not really. It's an overpaid young footballer throwing their toys out of the pram and is hardly anything new.

Scholes once refused to play a league cup game. Ronaldo twice publicly tantrumed about wanting to leave (well, three times if you count his second stint). Rooney did similar and publicly accused SAF and the club of lacking ambition.

Our fans are always so quick to vilify players for basic childish or contract waffle stuff that a manager should and usually does just deal with and probably has to deal with every week.

The only difference in this case is he didn't fit in with Almorim's plans anyway so got given the boot. I actually want him to do well. Just preferably in a way where Chelsea don't.
 
It's not really. It's an overpaid young footballer throwing their toys out of the pram and is hardly anything new.

Scholes once refused to play a league cup game. Ronaldo twice publicly tantrumed about wanting to leave (well, three times if you count his second stint). Rooney did similar and publicly accused SAF and the club of lacking ambition.

Our fans are always so quick to vilify players for basic childish or contract waffle stuff that a manager should and usually does just deal with and probably has to deal with every week.

The only difference in this case is he didn't fit in with Almorim's plans anyway so got given the boot. I actually want him to do well. Just preferably in a way where Chelsea don't.
Good summary
 
It's not really. It's an overpaid young footballer throwing their toys out of the pram and is hardly anything new.

Scholes once refused to play a league cup game. Ronaldo twice publicly tantrumed about wanting to leave (well, three times if you count his second stint). Rooney did similar and publicly accused SAF and the club of lacking ambition.

Our fans are always so quick to vilify players for basic childish or contract waffle stuff that a manager should and usually does just deal with and probably has to deal with every week.

The only difference in this case is he didn't fit in with Almorim's plans anyway so got given the boot. I actually want him to do well. Just preferably in a way where Chelsea don't.
A player moaning about game time vs a player suggesting he might have to leave the club after getting dropped for a game are two very different things. That’s a fact.

It’s also part of a pattern of poor attitude towards his job which has been subsequently revealed in greater detail. I’m pleased with removing players with poor attitudes from the club. Couldn’t care less how he does elsewhere.
 
It's not really. It's an overpaid young footballer throwing their toys out of the pram and is hardly anything new.

Scholes once refused to play a league cup game. Ronaldo twice publicly tantrumed about wanting to leave (well, three times if you count his second stint). Rooney did similar and publicly accused SAF and the club of lacking ambition.

Our fans are always so quick to vilify players for basic childish or contract waffle stuff that a manager should and usually does just deal with and probably has to deal with every week.

The only difference in this case is he didn't fit in with Almorim's plans anyway so got given the boot. I actually want him to do well. Just preferably in a way where Chelsea don't.
All the players above had amazing games / careers at United. Not just some unproven young guy with a questionable attitude
 
It's not really. It's an overpaid young footballer throwing their toys out of the pram and is hardly anything new.

Scholes once refused to play a league cup game. Ronaldo twice publicly tantrumed about wanting to leave (well, three times if you count his second stint). Rooney did similar and publicly accused SAF and the club of lacking ambition.

Our fans are always so quick to vilify players for basic childish or contract waffle stuff that a manager should and usually does just deal with and probably has to deal with every week.

The only difference in this case is he didn't fit in with Almorim's plans anyway so got given the boot. I actually want him to do well. Just preferably in a way where Chelsea don't
Best description I've seen on here of the situation. I just don't get the need for all the vitriol.
 
He was an exceptional talent, there's no denying that. It had been clear since his FA Youth Cup days... but all the signs show that he won't ever realise that potential. He's spiralled into the position he is at now, and it remains to be seen how his career will go now. Many think down the drain.
You could argue exceptional, I would say Yamal is exceptional.


Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Villa shirt incident come after he was told to find a new club?

Even if so, one could argue it was not a professional look.
 
It'll be fine for Chelsea. They got him at a cut price due to our silly antics, and if he doesn't work out will probably send him to some other club with a definitely not suspicious £80m loan fee tacked on or something.

Don't share the outrage over his moaning after not starting the EL final. Most players would moan about that but then get over it and understand it's the manager's call. The problem is being young and social media being a thing.

Chelsea definitely seemed like a poor choice of destination though. I don't actually think they're all that much better than United and also don't see how he's going to play any more often there.

This is just not true. We know for a fact that most players don’t moan about things like this publicly. That’s why it became a controversy with Garancho but not other players. I’m sure Mainoo is upset and frustrated about being on the bench for that game and many others but he hasn’t done what Garancho did. Many, many young players have been on the bench for cup finals and haven’t acted like that. And it’s not like it was the first time. Garnacho also had incidents with Ten Hag where he was liking tweets which criticised him for taking Garnacho off. Fans weren’t upset about a one off incident, they were upset about a pattern of unprofessional and entitled behaviour overall several years where Garnacho acted like he was bigger than the team.
 
This is just not true. We know for a fact that most players don’t moan about things like this publicly. That’s why it became a controversy with Garancho but not other players. I’m sure Mainoo is upset and frustrated about being on the bench for that game and many others but he hasn’t done what Garancho did. Many, many young players have been on the bench for cup finals and haven’t acted like that. And it’s not like it was the first time. Garnacho also had incidents with Ten Hag where he was liking tweets which criticised him for taking Garnacho off. Fans weren’t upset about a one off incident, they were upset about a pattern of unprofessional and entitled behaviour overall several years where Garnacho acted like he was bigger than the team.
Yeah agree. Remember what happened with Berbatov after the champions league final and how he said he drove him crying. It was a shambles of a decision really - Owen came on and did absolutely nothing and we needed control and composure and Berbatov would have given us that. But he didn't come out and slate United (even if it was never the same for him again)
 
It's not really. It's an overpaid young footballer throwing their toys out of the pram and is hardly anything new.

Scholes once refused to play a league cup game. Ronaldo twice publicly tantrumed about wanting to leave (well, three times if you count his second stint). Rooney did similar and publicly accused SAF and the club of lacking ambition.

Our fans are always so quick to vilify players for basic childish or contract waffle stuff that a manager should and usually does just deal with and probably has to deal with every week.

The only difference in this case is he didn't fit in with Almorim's plans anyway so got given the boot. I actually want him to do well. Just preferably in a way where Chelsea don't.

Yeah but there's the other bits and pieces as well.

Issues with his training, right from the beginning teammates saying he needs to stay grounded. The way he plays the game, not a team player at all.

Scoring a goal and not celebrating in front of your home fans because you're having a childish sulk. I can't really recall that happening at OT before.

You put it all together and it's a lad with a pretty poor attitude.
 
Yeah but there's the other bits and pieces as well.

Issues with his training, right from the beginning teammates saying he needs to stay grounded. The way he plays the game, not a team player at all.

Scoring a goal and not celebrating in front of your home fans because you're having a childish sulk. I can't really recall that happening at OT before.

You put it all together and it's a lad with a pretty poor attitude.

Yep. And it’s not like he’d been doing it on the pitch either. He had a shocking run of missing big chances last season and couldn’t be trusted to finish. It’s one thing if you’re doing the business on the pitch and get dropped, but he could have easily made that final spot his own with his performances but he just didn’t. He had noone to blame but himself, but lashed out at the manager instead of taking some responsibility for his poor form.
 
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Look at him wearing an unpopular double digit number on his back. He is the new Roma Ashley Cole hes just blind to it
 
Yeah but there's the other bits and pieces as well.

Issues with his training, right from the beginning teammates saying he needs to stay grounded. The way he plays the game, not a team player at all.

Scoring a goal and not celebrating in front of your home fans because you're having a childish sulk. I can't really recall that happening at OT before.

You put it all together and it's a lad with a pretty poor attitude.

Scoring a goal and not celebrating in front of your own fans might indicate there is an issue with the fans tbf.
 
Yeah but there's the other bits and pieces as well.

Issues with his training, right from the beginning teammates saying he needs to stay grounded. The way he plays the game, not a team player at all.

Scoring a goal and not celebrating in front of your home fans because you're having a childish sulk. I can't really recall that happening at OT before.

You put it all together and it's a lad with a pretty poor attitude.
A couple of issues with training which he was then heralded by the team captain for getting his head down and training extra hard.

Being played in three or four different positions without ever kicking up a fuss about it and doing a job in any position, sounds like a good team player to me.

I think this poor attitude myth has perpetuated through social media posts, with little basis in actual real life.

Anyhow, he's not a United player anymore so quite frankly, who cares!?!
 
A couple of issues with training which he was then heralded by the team captain for getting his head down and training extra hard.

Being played in three or four different positions without ever kicking up a fuss about it and doing a job in any position, sounds like a good team player to me.

I think this poor attitude myth has perpetuated through social media posts, with little basis in actual real life.

Anyhow, he's not a United player anymore so quite frankly, who cares!?!

The same team captain who in Ten Hag's first season was talking about how he needs to change his attitude?

He played LW, RW, LAM, RAM mostly for Manutd... I dont understand the fan logic these days that a player can only play 1 position in 1 formation. Football players can adapt, most of the top players adapt in different positions.

His poor attitude is not a myth when he was punished by 2 different managers and you have him coming out sulking to the media, not social media, a post match interview crying about being dropped.
 
The same team captain who in Ten Hag's first season was talking about how he needs to change his attitude?

He played LW, RW, LAM, RAM mostly for Manutd... I dont understand the fan logic these days that a player can only play 1 position in 1 formation. Football players can adapt, most of the top players adapt in different positions.

His poor attitude is not a myth when he was punished by 2 different managers and you have him coming out sulking to the media, not social media, a post match interview crying about being dropped.
So you claim he isn't a team player, yet then facilitate against that argument by stating he played in multiple positions?!
That's the very definition of being a team player, playing where the team needs you, and giving 100% in every scenario.
You just proved the point I was making, so thanks for that.

The team captain called him out on his attitude, he then bucked his ideas up which led to the same captain heralding him for his great attitude and working extra hard....

As for moaning about being dropped, I'm all for people being upset about not playing in finals, yes there's potentially better ways to go about it, but I'd rather he be upset about it and work harder because of it, rather than just accept it.

His poor attitude myth has come about from two minor flashpoints, the second of which he definitely worked and improved upon, leading to his reintegration into the team and again being heralded for his attitude and commitment to the team, before Amorim decided he didn't fit in.
The fans have then taken this and ran with it for whatever reason, maybe scapegoating, it's hard to tell.
 
He wears 49 because he cant get 7, so he multiplied 7 with 8 to get 56. But then his brother asked why not times 7 so its 64 because 7*7 means double the seven. Then his dad walked in and told them 7*7 is 49.
 
So you claim he isn't a team player, yet then facilitate against that argument by stating he played in multiple positions?!
That's the very definition of being a team player, playing where the team needs you, and giving 100% in every scenario.
You just proved the point I was making, so thanks for that.

The team captain called him out on his attitude, he then bucked his ideas up which led to the same captain heralding him for his great attitude and working extra hard....

As for moaning about being dropped, I'm all for people being upset about not playing in finals, yes there's potentially better ways to go about it, but I'd rather he be upset about it and work harder because of it, rather than just accept it.

His poor attitude myth has come about from two minor flashpoints, the second of which he definitely worked and improved upon, leading to his reintegration into the team and again being heralded for his attitude and commitment to the team, before Amorim decided he didn't fit in.
The fans have then taken this and ran with it for whatever reason, maybe scapegoating, it's hard to tell.

You do realise there is a difference between playing where the manager tells you and a team player? A team player is someone who passes the ball to team mates and is not selfish.

I have not questioned whether he gave 100% or not.. on the pitch he tried his best.

By your definition, any footballer that at the age of 18/19 is told to play different positions, is a team player right? So that means almost 95% of footballers are team players, so its nothing special.

Garnacho is definitely not a scapegoat. He deserved it, the fans backed him at all times, he went onto disrespect them. Thats on him, not on Manutd fans.

Yeah, then Garnacho had his brother and himself talk about team selections etc... real team player. A team player knows football is s squad game, doesnt cry for being on the bench in 1 game.
 
This is just not true. We know for a fact that most players don’t moan about things like this publicly. That’s why it became a controversy with Garancho but not other players. I’m sure Mainoo is upset and frustrated about being on the bench for that game and many others but he hasn’t done what Garancho did. Many, many young players have been on the bench for cup finals and haven’t acted like that. And it’s not like it was the first time. Garnacho also had incidents with Ten Hag where he was liking tweets which criticised him for taking Garnacho off. Fans weren’t upset about a one off incident, they were upset about a pattern of unprofessional and entitled behaviour overall several years where Garnacho acted like he was bigger than the team.

The thing was Mainoo has been a squad player who hasn't got in to the first team.

Garnacho was a first team player that was our best forward in our first 11 who was dropped for no reason.

Amorim is a worse manager than Garnacho is a player and alot of his decisions and choices has proved that.

Amorim calling out all his players as the worst United players in history whilst he himself can't watch a penalty shoot out against Grimsby is worse than Garnacho crying about him being dropped in a final where he was one of the main players who got us there in the first place.

Amorim is better as a director of football than a manager, talking the talk than walk the walk and Garnacho would still be here if we had a manager who could make the right decision at the right time.

Mainoo looks like grumpy from the Snow White dwarfs because he simply does not get even 2 90mins in a row from Amorim because he is a very bad manager.
 
This is from 2006, Ronaldo did not do anything significant at United until that point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/5120332.stm
Anything significant except he was by far the biggest talent in the world
And he was hounded by every person in England as the evil enemy winker, and receiving death threats at the time. A far cry from not being allowed to turn up late to training or leak info to your brother.
 
I feel really uncomfortable with the revisionism of Garnacho's time here.

Yeah he was a bit greedy/ineffectual at times, and he seems like a bit of a knob - but he generally worked very hard and did what he was told. He left under a bit of a cloud but he was forced out in the end, I don't believe he ever wanted to leave - not right now anyway.

His numbers are excellent for his age and he doesn't deserve to be shit on by our own fans, including match-going who continue to sing Amorim's song somehow.
 
I feel really uncomfortable with the revisionism of Garnacho's time here.

Yeah he was a bit greedy/ineffectual at times, and he seems like a bit of a knob - but he generally worked very hard and did what he was told. He left under a bit of a cloud but he was forced out in the end, I don't believe he ever wanted to leave - not right now anyway.

His numbers are excellent for his age and he doesn't deserve to be shit on by our own fans, including match-going who continue to sing Amorim's song somehow.
Them two sort of go together, no? He went to a rival who we've got history with after spending weeks doing things that at best are ill advised and at worse taking the piss out of the same fans that backed him.
 
Yeah but there's the other bits and pieces as well.

Issues with his training, right from the beginning teammates saying he needs to stay grounded. The way he plays the game, not a team player at all.

Scoring a goal and not celebrating in front of your home fans because you're having a childish sulk. I can't really recall that happening at OT before.

You put it all together and it's a lad with a pretty poor attitude.
Indeed. Some people try to make out he hasn't done any one spectacularly bad thing to deserve the dislike, and they'd just about be right. It's the fact that there's been so many different things that he's done in such a relatively short time, it just paints a bad picture of both his time with us and what likely would have continued into the future if he'd stayed.
 
A couple of issues with training which he was then heralded by the team captain for getting his head down and training extra hard.

Being played in three or four different positions without ever kicking up a fuss about it and doing a job in any position, sounds like a good team player to me.

I think this poor attitude myth has perpetuated through social media posts, with little basis in actual real life.

Anyhow, he's not a United player anymore so quite frankly, who cares!?!

You've got a very low bar for what constitutes a team player.
 
You do realise there is a difference between playing where the manager tells you and a team player? A team player is someone who passes the ball to team mates and is not selfish.

I have not questioned whether he gave 100% or not.. on the pitch he tried his best.

By your definition, any footballer that at the age of 18/19 is told to play different positions, is a team player right? So that means almost 95% of footballers are team players, so its nothing special.

Garnacho is definitely not a scapegoat. He deserved it, the fans backed him at all times, he went onto disrespect them. Thats on him, not on Manutd fans.

Yeah, then Garnacho had his brother and himself talk about team selections etc... real team player. A team player knows football is s squad game, doesnt cry for being on the bench in 1 game.
The fans didn't back him, hence his not celebrating after scoring....

And yes, a young player asked to provide cover in multiple different positions in an under performing team, and giving his all in every position is the literal definition of being a team player.

His decision making is the issue, not his selfishness. Something of which seems to escape people is his age and the fact he is still learning.