Gary Neville on United

AR87

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I much prefer the manager choosing exactly who he wants and the club paying what it takes to get those players than a DOF moving through a list of weaker and weaker alternatives that fit a similar "profile". AWB and Maguire already look like bargains. The haggling didn't do anyone an ounce of harm.
In these scenarios those players were available for fees the club felt was in the correct price range. For Longstaff that wasn't the case which is when you'd want alternative options. I'd still require the manager approve a signing before it's made regardless.
 

edgar allan

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It's funny how this place couldn't shut up about us getting rid of the likes of Fellaini and Lukaku yet somehow they've become losses rather than players we needed ridding of.

Like Neville said, the likes of those 3 aren't losses. Beside Hererra who himself wasn't lighting the world on fire the rest were surplus to requirements rather than losses. Lukaku couldn't be played in Ole's new system is trying to implement and Fellaini was always universally deemed mediocre. And as for Hererra himself we should be able to produce a player of his caliber, he wasn't necessarily anything special.

What we did is get rid of surplus players(Lukaku, Fellaini) and recruiting the right way now(Maguire, Wan Bissaka and James).
We shall see come March whether we had surplus players that didn't need to be replaced.
If we are lucky enough that Martial, Rashford stay fit all year with no injuries then the gamble may work out.
 
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SteveW

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In these scenarios those players were available for fees the club felt was in the correct price range. For Longstaff that wasn't the case which is when you'd want alternative options. I'd still require the manager approve a signing before it's made regardless.
Thing about Longstaff, I didn't hear a single decent alternative mentioned anywhere, not on the caf, the media, anywhere.

Just lads like Lemina.

Get the impression Ole would rather suffer for a season than potentially sign another problem.
 

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Thing about Longstaff, I didn't hear a single decent alternative mentioned anywhere, not on the caf, the media, anywhere.

Just lads like Lemina.

Get the impression Ole would rather suffer for a season than potentially sign another problem.
I have a hard time believing across Europe Longstaff was the only CM option who fit Ole's criteria. That's something a technical director would help with, is giving us more than 1-2 options positions presumably.
 

Rish Sawhney

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I have a hard time believing across Europe Longstaff was the only CM option who fit Ole's criteria. That's something a technical director would help with, is giving us more than 1-2 options positions presumably.
That the opposite of what we should be doing IMO. I don't want cheap knockoffs of our first choice, I'd rather just wait or go for a different profile of player. I don't like "profiling" players in general because it makes players sounds like cattle to be traded. Mentality, ambition and attitude is a lot more important than if two players have similar heights, vision and touch.
 

AR87

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That the opposite of what we should be doing IMO. I don't want cheap knockoffs of our first choice, I'd rather just wait or go for a different profile of player. I don't like "profiling" players in general because it makes players sounds like cattle to be traded. Mentality, ambition and attitude is a lot more important than if two players have similar heights, vision and touch.
This is literally what top teams do. You don't generally have one player for a position and only go for him or nothing. You compile a list of options, something Ole would be a part of, and prioritize it.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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That the opposite of what we should be doing IMO. I don't want cheap knockoffs of our first choice, I'd rather just wait or go for a different profile of player. I don't like "profiling" players in general because it makes players sounds like cattle to be traded. Mentality, ambition and attitude is a lot more important than if two players have similar heights, vision and touch.
Part of me gets your point here but we’re talking about Longstaff, not Messi.

If our vast scouting network can not come up with an alternative to Longstaff then something is really wrong.

I’m sure that given what we’ve been feeding the media recently that his character traits will have been taken into account but I do not buy that he alone would improve us - we’re actually in a position where we should be buying multiple midfielders so the whole Longstaff fiasco is a smokescreen imo.
 

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This is literally what top teams do. You don't generally have one player for a position and only go for him or nothing. You compile a list of options, something Ole would be a part of, and prioritize it.
Top teams don't do that at all. They tend to be in a position to wait for the right opportunities and not just sign whoever they can get to fill holes.

Personally I badly wanted us to sign a central midfielder. It's a major problem position. But I'm almost happier to do without than if they'd signed some of the names mentioned. SMS? Lemina? feck that.
 

AR87

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Top teams don't do that at all. They tend to be in a position to wait for the right opportunities and not just sign whoever they can get to fill holes.

Personally I badly wanted us to sign a central midfielder. It's a major problem position. But I'm almost happier to do without than if they'd signed some of the names mentioned. SMS? Lemina? feck that.
I'm actually not upset we didn't sign a CM this summer because to my knowledge there weren't CMs aside from Ndombele, who we were never getting, that I knew about being available I cared for. What I am saying is if we're in a situation where our recruitment has us in a position where only a prospect like Sean Longstaff is a CM of interest then we need to improve our setup, whatever that means. We should be able to identify more CM prospects across the breadth of Europe of similar caliber and upside. If we're solely focused on a high end established player then I don't mind being more focused on 1-2 options.
 

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True, but Klopp's eye for a transfer has been pretty much ideal for them so far so I have no doubt at ALL that replacing Wijnaldum, Henderson will be a piece of piss......VVD a nightmare of course, but I dont think they'd struggle massively replacing the front three over time, either. Big IF though, as Klopp might not even be there!
To find 3 quick strikers who are all good in front of goal is not easy. Esp Firmino will be hard to replace
 

fallengt

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"Cycle" is just another meaningless buzzword.
What was Nokia's or Kodak's cycle again? Both failures were down to mismanagement and inability to modernize their companies.
 

tony54

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How you've lasted 500+ posts on here I do not know.

You'll probably have 500 notifications from people saying

WRONG
WRONG
UTTERLY WRONG.

There's opinions and debates, but yours is so wrong it's outrageous.
I will post what I think and you can post what you think.
It's just a football game, you don't have to take it too seriously, its a bag of leather.
If I had 500 moans from posters I would still hold my ground, if I think what I say is true.
I will say it again, Gary was talking down to the questioners and wouldn't let them finish their questions. Quite rude. He is also wrong on his " natural cycles"" , yes in life there are natural cycles but in our case it was caused by uneccessary greed and bad management.
I still think Herrera is Neville's equal at least, he was just surrounded by too many dud players at mu.
I din't want to say this but ,yes Gary was a great player, but his management skills are poor and he's probably best at being a pundit.
 
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mancan92

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I completely disagree on the cycles thing. It's not down to cycles its down to mismanagement. If you have a great structure and good management then you will keep a consistent level.
 

GBBQ

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"Cycle" is just another meaningless buzzword.
What was Nokia's or Kodak's cycle again? Both failures were down to mismanagement and inability to modernize their companies.
Isn't that the nature of a cycle, that there is some catalyst that impacts peak performers and allows competitors to overtake? There's no team that will stay on top forever. It is a cycle and that's borne out by historic results.
 

romufc

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I completely disagree on the cycles thing. It's not down to cycles its down to mismanagement. If you have a great structure and good management then you will keep a consistent level.
I disagree with this. Every club has cycles across Europe.

We are lucky we had such a long period of domination, but usually they have 3/4 years of European and Domestic domination.
 

mancan92

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I disagree with this. Every club has cycles across Europe.

We are lucky we had such a long period of domination, but usually they have 3/4 years of European and Domestic domination.
We weren't lucky we had the greatest manager in the history of football. We then hired a average manager and a ceo who has no idea about football. Thats why we dropped. If we had brought in Pep and DOF who knows what hes doing we would of carried on dominating.

These things aren't lucky its why the likes of Madrid and Barca have stayed top for soo long. Its why big corporate companies stay big and dominate. The only reason they fall is always due to bad management.
 

Tom Van Persie

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I will post what I think and you can post what you think.
It's just a football game, you don't have to take it too seriously, its a bag of leather.
If I had 500 moans from posters I would still hold my ground, if I think what I say is true.
I will say it again, Gary was talking down to the questioners and wouldn't let them finish their questions. Quite rude. He is also wrong on his " natural cycles"" , yes in life there are natural cycles but in our case it was caused by uneccessary greed and bad management.
I still think Herrera is Neville's equal at least, he was just surrounded by too many dud players at mu.
I din't want to say this but ,yes Gary was a great player, but his management skills are poor and he's probably best at being a pundit.
You're mad. I'm not even sure Herrera would say that himself. Neville was a far better player it's not even close.
 

Raw

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I still think Herrera is Neville's equal at least, he was just surrounded by too many dud players at mu
I'm sorry but you'd have to have started watching football in 2010 if you think this is remotely true. And I say this as a huge fan of Herrera.
 

romufc

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These things aren't lucky its why the likes of Madrid and Barca have stayed top for soo long.
Dominating in their own because there is 3 contenders because no one else can challenge. It is not the same in England. Real between 2000 - 2010 went through a phase they couldnt get past the quarter finals of Champions League.

Juve went through a phase they couldnt qualify for Champions League.

It is all well and good to say if we hired Pep, but we hired Jose, a serial winner.
 

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Yes, he was a good squad player surrounded, as he states himself, by world class players. Herrera has more football nounce and skills than Neville who now commentates as he played with mediocrity.
John O'Shea was a good squad player surrounded, Darren Gibson was a good squad player surrounded. Gary Neville? Possibly the best right back of his generation in England, and one of the best in the world. He got 85 caps for England and fended off countless competition for the spot.

He could tackle, defend, own his opponent, he could transition into attack, he could cross, assist, overlap and still get back to defend. He was up and down his right side all game. An absolute top right back and regarded as United's best ever.
 

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Yes, he was a good squad player surrounded, as he states himself, by world class players. Herrera has more football nounce and skills than Neville who now commentates as he played with mediocrity.
:lol:
 

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It was always pretty clear Neville didn't like Herrera.

Let's be honest he's better than that - Herrera was no Cleverley. PSG wouldn't have been interested either if he was that poor.
 

mancan92

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Dominating in their own because there is 3 contenders because no one else can challenge. It is not the same in England. Real between 2000 - 2010 went through a phase they couldnt get past the quarter finals of Champions League.

Juve went through a phase they couldnt qualify for Champions League.

It is all well and good to say if we hired Pep, but we hired Jose, a serial winner.
For 20 years only 2 teams ever won the league let's not act like the prem is some sort of crazy open contest. The only times it got competitive was when oil money came in.

Real Madrid only getting to the quarters is not the same as us literally not getting into the champions league 4 out of the last 6 years. They have always stayed in the top 10 teams in the world.

In terms of Jose clearly at that point he wae no longer a "great" manager and clearly the management behind him was terrible.

As I said these are not magical cycle things. Jose is a checkbook manager so you back him to the end financially if you are Jose's manager then you know that but our management is poor so they didn't do that instead made stupid decisions and destroyed the whole season.
 

romufc

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For 20 years only 2 teams ever won the league let's not act like the prem is some sort of crazy open contest. The only times it got competitive was when oil money came in.

Real Madrid only getting to the quarters is not the same as us literally not getting into the champions league 4 out of the last 6 years. They have always stayed in the top 10 teams in the world.

In terms of Jose clearly at that point he wae no longer a "great" manager and clearly the management behind him was terrible.

As I said these are not magical cycle things. Jose is a checkbook manager so you back him to the end financially if you are Jose's manager then you know that but our management is poor so they didn't do that instead made stupid decisions and destroyed the whole season.

In the last 20 years about 5 teams have won the prem. Yeah, Man city got bought out, TV money has come in too, what is your point?

Real Madrid qualifying for Champions league because the La Liga is not as competitive. They dont have 6 teams who can qualify for champions League. We had City champions, and 2nd and 4th in Champions League Final, which shows the premier league strength.

So he was no longer a great manager because ? you said so? and Van Gaal also was not a great manager? Cause you said so?

Van Gaal took Netherlands to the semis.
Jose 2 years prior won the prem with Chelsea

Jose didn't get backed? He didnt get Perisic because we had Martial and He didn't get a CB because the 2 HE signed flopped.

I agree the club have been mis managed but the managers have been backed fully.
 

SteveW

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I'm actually not upset we didn't sign a CM this summer because to my knowledge there weren't CMs aside from Ndombele, who we were never getting, that I knew about being available I cared for. What I am saying is if we're in a situation where our recruitment has us in a position where only a prospect like Sean Longstaff is a CM of interest then we need to improve our setup, whatever that means. We should be able to identify more CM prospects across the breadth of Europe of similar caliber and upside. If we're solely focused on a high end established player then I don't mind being more focused on 1-2 options.
I'd imagine the clubs scouting reach is a lot wider than you give it credit for. Just don't think Ole was convinced by the other options.
 

mancan92

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In the last 20 years about 5 teams have won the prem. Yeah, Man city got bought out, TV money has come in too, what is your point?

Real Madrid qualifying for Champions league because the La Liga is not as competitive. They dont have 6 teams who can qualify for champions League. We had City champions, and 2nd and 4th in Champions League Final, which shows the premier league strength.

So he was no longer a great manager because ? you said so? and Van Gaal also was not a great manager? Cause you said so?

Van Gaal took Netherlands to the semis.
Jose 2 years prior won the prem with Chelsea

Jose didn't get backed? He didnt get Perisic because we had Martial and He didn't get a CB because the 2 HE signed flopped.

I agree the club have been mis managed but the managers have been backed fully.
You have just proved the point. They were "mismanaged" not a magical cycle. If they are managed correctly then we wouldn't be where we are. That's how things work it's not magic.
 

romufc

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You have just proved the point. They were "mismanaged" not a magical cycle. If they are managed correctly then we wouldn't be where we are. That's how things work it's not magic.

Managed correctly by who?

So why did the formula work pre david moyes? that was a title winning team.

We tried long term PL manager. David Moyes. Footballing manager Van Gaal. and serial winner Jose.

So, you are blaming who? the manager? the CEo? The board?
 

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I'd imagine the clubs scouting reach is a lot wider than you give it credit for. Just don't think Ole was convinced by the other options.
I think the scouting reach is fine. May even be excellent based on the number of promising youth talent we've identified. What I think is problematic is expecting the manager to be able to do what needs to be done in managing and coaching the first team squad, and additionally lead recruitment and coordinate with the hundreds of scouts the club employs. He needs help in that part of things which is where a technical director would come in.
 

mancan92

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Managed correctly by who?

So why did the formula work pre david moyes? that was a title winning team.

We tried long term PL manager. David Moyes. Footballing manager Van Gaal. and serial winner Jose.

So, you are blaming who? the manager? the CEo? The board?
It worked pre david moyes because we had fantastic coaching staff who knew what they were doing, a manager who was the best ever and a CEO who knew how to run a football club.

It's not about getting one part correct you need the management team behind them to be correct. The board, the CEO yes they take the blame. Not some magical "cycle"
 

romufc

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It worked pre david moyes because we had fantastic coaching staff who knew what they were doing, a manager who was the best ever and a CEO who knew how to run a football club.

It's not about getting one part correct you need the management team behind them to be correct. The board, the CEO yes they take the blame. Not some magical "cycle"
So in your argument because the board and CEO has not changed, we will not be successful until they are changed?
 

mancan92

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So in your argument because the board and CEO has not changed, we will not be successful until they are changed?
Because we are a mismanaged company we will fail to move forward unless our management change their approach or we get new management. Thats how it works.

Commercially we continue to be hugely successful because we have great commercial people working for us. Now once we add great football people or our commercial people learn how to run the football side properly then we will be successful again.
 

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If Adam said those things last season, I'd 100% agree with him. But not this season. I think they actually did better than they're getting credit for. Sure the transfer window wasn't perfect, but they got some desperately needed improvement in defence and another cheap pacy forward to match the direct game Ole prefers. McTominay has also done very well last season as well as this pre season, which sort of justifies not replacing Herrera. So I think Neville is right about that.

Is this a sign of the board room improving and better things to come? It's too early to say that, especially with the last 6 years fresh in my memory, but I think the current squad has potential. Injuries not withstanding.
 

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Neville sounds like a smug twat.
 

fallengt

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Isn't that the nature of a cycle, that there is some catalyst that impacts peak performers and allows competitors to overtake? There's no team that will stay on top forever. It is a cycle and that's borne out by historic results.
Hindsight is 10/19 but for Kodak, they were banking on their film-based industry instead of the new tech, digital photography. Their engineers introduced the technology to chairman but he said no. Then for the next 10 years everyone knew they were 100% going to fail with their stubborness, the only question was how long could they stay in their denial.
Replace "film" with "symbian" and you have the same story for Nokia. Their downfalls were their own faults alone.
The way Neville put it he implied that some thing's bound to happen. It's not.

I don't disagree that in football, no club stay on top forever but for us fan, seeing club falling further behind with little bounce in the last 7 years. We can't help but wonder if people in charge know what are they doing.
 
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Rish Sawhney

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Hindsight is 10/19 but for Kodak, they were banking on their film-based industry instead of the new tech, digital photography. Their engineers introduced the technology to chairman but he said no. Then for the next 10 years everyone knew they were 100% going to fail with their stubborness.
Replace "film" with "symbian" and you have the same story for Nokia. Their downfalls were their own faults alone.
The way Neville put it he implied that some thing's bound to happen. It's not.

I don't disagree that in football, no club stay on top forever but for us fan, seeing club falling further behind with little bounce in the last 7 years. We can't help but wonder if people in charge know what are they doing.
But those sort of major technological shifts don't happen in football. The analogy would hold if somehow every there was a competitive advantage in say playing with a new style of boots that United were resisting letting their players use or something. The comparison is so pointless - Football competition is not like technological corporate competition.
 

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Isn't that the nature of a cycle, that there is some catalyst that impacts peak performers and allows competitors to overtake? There's no team that will stay on top forever. It is a cycle and that's borne out by historic results.
A footballing cycle ends when a team at the top has failed to invest properly while winning. Fergie managing to sustain success during what normally would've been multiple cycles is due to his ability to create new teams.

Now, one would think that a team that keeps investing, restructuring, adapting and rejuvenating its squad could potentially stay at the top for longer than a 'natural cycle'.
 

fallengt

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But those sort of major technological shifts don't happen in football. The analogy would hold if somehow every there was a competitive advantage in say playing with a new style of boots that United were resisting letting their players use or something. The comparison is so pointless - Football competition is not like technological corporate competition.
Being able to adapt your business to the ever changing condition is the moral of the story here.

Don't you think chocolate factories need to have more machines and less human nowadays? Even though the taste has stayed the same for 200(?) years or they just continue to do whatever worked/used to work for them?

Just because it used to work for Fergie doesn't mean it'll work for everyone. Heck we have 2 successful managers in the whole club' history (3 if I'm being generous). That's not good, statistically.

The club has been run under old British model for so long and we're now falling behind. That is undeniable fact.
People want Glazers to modernize our business hence the "hire DoF" talk. Even though this mysterious man/woman may
not fix us but it'd be a good sign that club willing to adapt
 

Rish Sawhney

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Being able to adapt your business to the ever changing condition is the moral of the story here.

Don't you think chocolate factories need to have more machines and less human nowadays? Even though the taste has stayed the same for 200(?) years or they just continue to do whatever worked/used to work for them?

Just because it used to work for Fergie doesn't mean it'll work for everyone. Heck we have 2 successful managers in the whole club' history (3 if I'm being generous). That's not good, statistically.

The club has been run under old British model for so long and we're now falling behind. That is undeniable fact.
People want Glazers to modernize our business hence the "hire DoF" talk. Even though this mysterious man/woman may
not fix us but it'd be a good sign that club willing to adapt

Are we replacing footballers with machines? And DoF is hardly a new thing, its been around forever. Its not modernization its adopting a different model that's in vogue now but not necessarily better.

Regarding the bolded part: That will not change unfortunately, we will never become Barcelona who can go from manager to manager and still keep challenging. We've never been that type of club and I don't want us to be.
 

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Glad Neville agrees with me on Herrera. A meh player. Nothing special at all and there are loads of players lik him around. We should aim higher if its the correct personality. I like what we've done this summer. Steady, but a plan.

The-not-spending-glazer-out has to take a break for a while and get behind our plan and manager.
 

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Dominating in their own because there is 3 contenders because no one else can challenge. It is not the same in England. Real between 2000 - 2010 went through a phase they couldnt get past the quarter finals of Champions League.

Juve went through a phase they couldnt qualify for Champions League.

It is all well and good to say if we hired Pep, but we hired Jose, a serial winner.
Glad someone mentioned this. People be acting as if teams like Real, Barca etc never had their share of trouble and dark years in Europe.

Like you mentioned Madrid constantly failed to get past the quarter final stage of the CL for a decade, Juventus were in Series B etc. These things happen to all teams. People pretending otherwise are either ignorant or being disingenuous.