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Synco

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This thread is for posts on players, teams, eras, etc. outside of more specific threads (like the match compilations one) and ongoing matches. Not sure if there's that much of a need, but we'll see.
 

Synco

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So the immediate reason for creating this thread was the discussion on Schnellinger's best position in the Ludo draft thread. This answer didn't really fit there and would have been buried anyway.

Here's what happened:

I am sorry about bringing this up after someone has drafted him but recently I have felt he is very overrated.

(...)

I felt his reading of the game was not good enough for him to be classified as an absolute top tier LB.
From what I’ve seen, I’d rate him higher as a sweeper. He lacked agility to face truly great nimble wingers.
He was really bad vs us in the 68—69 EC semis. Best had a great game against him from what I remember and it was our crap finishing that allowed Milan to go through.
I've always thought he was more of a sweeper than an LB.
I think majority view him as a LB as well as his best position. (...) I have read people call him a better sweeper and CB than fullback but they were the minority

Watching still existing games makes a lot of sense, of course. But since they'll only provide selective impressions, I found some stuff on how Schnellinger was evaluated during his time. No idea if it has been posted somewhere else already.

1. Kicker rankings

Historical Kicker Magazine evaluations of Schnellinger's position and performance level. Schnellinger's Serie A career is not covered, as Kicker only started to include German players in foreign leagues much later. So after Schnellinger's move to Italy, only the NT/WC performances of 1966 & 1970 are included:

1957 national level or below
1958 national level or below
1959 International Class [Full Back]
1960 World Class ★ [Full Back]
1961 World Class ★ [Full Back] & International Class [Half Back]
1962 World Class ★ [Full Back]
1963 World Class O [Full Back]
1964 no assessment [played abroad]
1965 no assessment [played abroad]
1966 World Class O [Outside Defender]
1967 no assessment [played abroad]
1968 no assessment [played abroad]
1969 no assessment [played abroad]
1970 World Class O [Central Defender]
1971 no assessment [played abroad]
1972 no assessment [played abroad]
1973 no assessment [played abroad]
1974 no assessment [played abroad]
1975 national level or below

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/rating-of-german-players-1955-to-2008.936925/#post-16859301
(Key to the symbols can be found in the thread's OP. Should be a useful reference thread in general.)

2. Ballon D'Or rankings

Schnellinger featured four times in Ballon d'Or lists:

1962 - 3
1963 - 6
1964 - 11
1965 - 12

Takeaways:

Schnellinger's career peak in terms of international recognition was as a LB in the early 60s, and as a Mantova/Roma player in 1964 & 1965 (position unknown). Nothing is documented here about his Milan days, but Kicker rated his WC performances during that time as world class too. 1966 he played on the left, 1970 in central defense. Footballia has all of these games.

It's also quite clear that Schnellinger started out as a left back, either all the time or at least predominantly. A larger number of surviving club games & line up graphics exist from the late 60s on, and as far as I can tell, he usually plays as a CB/sweeper there.

I guess this might provide some useful context for watching his games.
 

harms

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His ratings from Italy (no info on the earlier seasons). I think the general consensus is that his peak was at LB, but from what little I've seen him, I'd prefer him at CB — not only because the level of his performances, but also because of his characteristics, mainly agility (or a relative lack of it).



LCD — Libero
TLS — Left back
SCD — Stopper
 

Physiocrat

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His ratings from Italy (no info on the earlier seasons). I think the general consensus is that his peak was at LB, but from what little I've seen him, I'd prefer him at CB — not only because the level of his performances, but also because of his characteristics, mainly agility (or a relative lack of it).



LCD — Libero
TLS — Left back
SCD — Stopper
How does he rank against other defenders in Serie A in that time frame?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Great thread idea @Synco and a great post.

Schnellinger's career peak in terms of international recognition was as a LB in the early 60s, and as a Mantova/Roma player in 1964 & 1965 (position unknown)
I did watch a couple of Mantova/Roma games and he played LB there. I have never come across some classic big games of his as a sweeper. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable lads could suggest some games to watch. I have heard his better sweeper games came with the national team
 

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He played as CB in the Cup Winners Cup final against Seeler's HSV but its difficult to judge him on that as the gulf between the teams was too big, saying that he looked much more comfortable then when ever i watched him on the left.
 

Synco

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I did watch a couple of Mantova/Roma games and he played LB there.
Interesting, where did you find them?
I have never come across some classic big games of his as a sweeper. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable lads could suggest some games to watch. I have heard his better sweeper games came with the national team
Only Milan game I've seen is the one against Bayern at the San Siro 1968. I made an utterly confused post about it in the past, but as I remember it, Schnellinger plays an expansive role at CB and it's Trapattoni on the left (TV/Footballia seem to have his shirt number wrong). Although positioning seems situationally fluid in that Milan backline.

I can't specifically remember Schnellinger's individual performance, but Milan's defense successfully subdues Bayern's attack. I think Müller doesn't even get one goal attempt; but his first half is the earliest example of the "away game defensive box-to-box forward" Müller I'm aware of.

As a bonus, there's Sepp Maier looking like a malnourished Brian Johnson.

Another one should be the 1969 EC win over Ajax. I only watched the opening minutes, but Schnellinger plays centrally there too. Then there are 6 German NT games from 1969 and 1970 on Footballia involving him - if I remember correctly, he plays CB in all of them.
 

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Has anyone watched him much from the 1962 World Cup?

He oozes class in the middle from what I've seen, but on the left it's more of an unknown. Didn't look great in the '66 final against Ball or in '68 against Best to be honest, but that's a small sample that might be doing him a disservice, especially given it's later in his career when he may have been less mobile. In fairness, a 3rd place in the Ballon from LB in 1962 is mightily impressive.
 

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Starting to watch some of Schnellinger's matches. Started with a 1963 game against Brazil featuring Pele. This is what I noticed from the first half. Will watch the second half today if I can and comment more.

Germany started well and look quite mobile. Seeler is such a busy player and he's constantly moving and working. Schnellinger is at LB and is aiding the attack, but he doesn't get forward all that much. When Germany lose the ball, he's smart with his positioning and keeps the pressure on the ball carrier until the attack switches to a different flank.

His touch seems quite deft. He looks good with the ball, working his way forward after receiving the ball from the keeper. He seems to drift centrally rather than hug the touchline. Drifted into midfield and plays a neat little through-pass.

Seeler looks fantastic. Played a lovely overhead kick at the edge of the box off a corner. Wasn't a goal but he managed to time it perfectly and generate a surprising amount of power.

Nicely timed challenge from Schnellinger to break up a Brazilian attack. The Brazilians have slowly started exerting influence on the game. I'm not paying as much attention to them but it looks like Pele is sort of probing around that area just outside the box and testing the defense.

I'm generally not enjoying the general play from the Brazilians though. They're moving the ball about too slowly and hoping Pele or one of their other attackers dribble their way through. Germany on the other hand actually seem comparable with a more modern team. They're constantly on the move and launching quick attacks with well-timed passes.

Schnellinger had to deal with one of the Brazilians trying to dribble a couple of times. First time he just about managed to deal with it. He was almost caught out the second time but recovered his position and stopped the ball from coming in.

Stepped out of defense and played a great through-ball that was just about intercepted.

I get why people say he's not agile. He seems a gangly sort and the way he runs with his head down is sort of languid. He prefers time on the ball and picking out teammates with long passes. I don't think he's slow though, since he has a burst of pace when he thinks he might lose the ball.

Brazil have more of the ball but they're sort of dull and boring. I'm not a fan of their passing technique in general. They're better with the ball at their feet and probing at the defense with a couple of short passes to help them out. Pele is quite physical and a combative sort to deal with. He's constantly trying to either muscle his way past defenders or flick it past them and use his pace to get behind them. They've defended him well.. so far. It's generally Schulz who tends to deal with him.

Germany, on the other hand, have been quite entertaining. They sort of play on the counter and most of the passes they make are forward with an attacking mindset. They're all very risky forward passes so they might lose the ball in the process, but their game plan is to attack and attack fast and with as many numbers as possible.

Schnellinger's pass completion % is probably horrible for this game if you look at the stats, but that doesn't tell you the whole story. He's constantly looking to make long passes and through passes forward. He and Schulz play in a very similar way although he's at LB. I can see why he'd make a decent sweeper even though he's still an LB at this stage of his career.
 

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was reading through Seeler posts in compilation thread and saw this, find it strange as im the total opposite, couldnt care less what players did in friendly games. Agree on everything else that was said about Uwe:drool:
I personally take those friendly games as serious as the competitive ones.
 

harms

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was reading through Seeler posts in compilation thread and saw this, find it strange as im the total opposite, couldnt care less what players did in friendly games. Agree on everything else that was said about Uwe:drool:
In 50's and 60's those were often their only chances to prove their worth on the international level. It's not the same from the 70's and on, but before that... Not all of them, of course, but when you're playing against Pele, you've got to give your very best to see how you compare.
 

Šjor Bepo

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In 50's and 60's those were often their only chances to prove their worth on the international level. It's not the same from the 70's and on, but before that... Not all of them, of course, but when you're playing against Pele, you've got to give your very best to see how you compare.
Seeler in that game against Santos looked like Pele, never in any other competitive match he looked that comfortable and that good in possession. He was still very good on the ball in general, great player and from the players i didnt watch he is up there with Cruyff as my favorite player but the difference between friendly games and competitive ones was always clear. Even if players give 100% there is no pressure in those games and that animal killed a lot of players.
 

Synco

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Seeler in that game against Santos looked like Pele, never in any other competitive match he looked that comfortable and that good in possession. He was still very good on the ball in general, great player and from the players i didnt watch he is up there with Cruyff as my favorite player but the difference between friendly games and competitive ones was always clear.
Based on a comparison with the few existing all touches compilations, I'd agree with that. Still would have to see more of prime Seeler (and early 60s football in general) to really judge.

There are degrees of seriousness, imo. As far as exhibition matches go, this one looked like a serious one to me (i.e. winning mattered to both teams, there was some physical defending & counter pressing, etc.). But you're probably right there's a whole other level of intensity and pressure when the heat is on in a competitive "do or die" match.

(Another factor comes to mind: How highly was that Santos team generally rated when it comes to defending?)
 

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Just stumbled upon a Puskas goal that I had never seen before. He scores straight from a corner with his left foot... with an outside of his left foot.
 

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Is Gazza underrated?
I dont even think about us here in drafts even though i reckon im the only one that picks him but from the UK media and people in football. There is always talk about how great Hoddle(Gazza was twice the player he was) was or the talk about Golden Generation but there is never any talk about Gazza and when there is its never about how great he was but its always "what could have been..."
While i agree he could have done much better if he was handled better or was just more disciplined himself but you never hear people talk like that about Ronaldinho and Best for example. Obviously both Best and Dinho were closer and longer to their full potential but the point still stands IMO
 

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Don't know about the uk media, but i've found him to be consistently really impressive in the footage of him i've watched from late 80s-early 90s and even quite a few games after that when the injuries and booze had set in. He looks an absolute tank physically compared to most other creative midfielders ofhis time and right up to today. Beautiful touch and dribbling for someone so strong and bullish a runner, very good passing and a big game player. I'd say along with Dragan Stojkovic he was the midfielder that established themselves as looking like an all-timer in the making at the 1990 world cup.

I find with discussion about players that reach the top level for a while, have a reputation for wasted talent, and ultimately fall short for whatever reasons you always no matter how impressive a peak the player showed get a few trying to play the hip geezer and make out they were never anything special in the first place, usually by drawing comparison to someone who did have a great career in their position and saying they were massively inferior...here it would be a zidane, iniesta etc That maybe has it's place for some players, but i wouldn't say Gascoigne is one of them.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Don't know about the uk media, but i've found him to be consistently really impressive in the footage of him i've watched from late 80s-early 90s and even quite a few games after that when the injuries and booze had set in. He looks an absolute tank physically compared to most other creative midfielders ofhis time and right up to today. Beautiful touch and dribbling for someone so strong and bullish a runner, very good passing and a big game player. I'd say along with Dragan Stojkovic he was the midfielder that established themselves as looking like an all-timer in the making at the 1990 world cup.

I find with discussion about players that reach the top level for a while, have a reputation for wasted talent, and ultimately fall short for whatever reasons you always no matter how impressive a peak the player showed get a few trying to play the hip geezer and make out they were never anything special in the first place, usually by drawing comparison to someone who did have a great career in their position and saying they were massively inferior...here it would be a zidane, iniesta etc That maybe has it's place for some players, but i wouldn't say Gascoigne is one of them.
Topic closed.
 

Gio

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Just stumbled upon a Puskas goal that I had never seen before. He scores straight from a corner with his left foot... with an outside of his left foot.
Wow - great find. Don't think I've ever seen an outside of the boot goal like that from a corner.

I think it goes to show the almost certain volume of great and legacy-defining goals that were never caught on camera.
 

harms

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Also, that guy with binocular glasses should become a reaction meme :lol:

 

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What do we reckon Gazza's best position is? 442 next to a DM or the furthest forward in a midfield three behind two wing forwards and a striker?

I wouldn't play him as a 10 as he didn't score enough
 

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What do we reckon Gazza's best position is? 442 next to a DM or the furthest forward in a midfield three behind two wing forwards and a striker?

I wouldn't play him as a 10 as he didn't score enough
the one thing that impressed me the most with Gazza after watching him closely is his defensive game and the fact he is tactically as good as anyone, which you dont really expect from the Gazza character of the pitch. So you can really play him in multiple roles and in different systems.
If i had to pick one role for him it would probably be in a midfield three with a holding midfielder behind him, third midfielder is irrelevant - you can easily play another attacking mid there.
 

Gio

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What do we reckon Gazza's best position is? 442 next to a DM or the furthest forward in a midfield three behind two wing forwards and a striker?

I wouldn't play him as a 10 as he didn't score enough
Agree with @sjor here. He's comfy in a 4-4-2 alongside a disciplined partner. Same for a 4-3-3.

In a different tactical era where he played higher rather than in a 4-4-2, I think he's capable of scoring more (could make the same argument for other players who spent their careers in flat midfield fours such as Giggs or Hoddle). His record at Rangers was 1 in 2 for instance and his finishing and dribbling were top class.
 

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Agree with @sjor here. He's comfy in a 4-4-2 alongside a disciplined partner. Same for a 4-3-3.

In a different tactical era where he played higher rather than in a 4-4-2, I think he's capable of scoring more (could make the same argument for other players who spent their careers in flat midfield fours such as Giggs or Hoddle). His record at Rangers was 1 in 2 for instance and his finishing and dribbling were top class.
Didn't know his scoring record was that good for Rangers. Maybe Mourinho would have wanted him as an upgrade on Deco.
 

harms

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3 best players of all time according to Park Ji Sung:
  1. Maradona
  2. Evra
  3. Lee Young-pyo
:lol:
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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Not to derail the match thread. Food for thought?

Stylistically, I'd say Romario is not far from Eusebio
Sometimes you say those random things that I can't wrap my mind around. First Sivori - Puskas, now this :)
Haha I have never been a vodka fan either, so maybe that is where it all starts :lol:

While Eusebio didn't play off the last defender and was more than just a goal scorer, his dribbling, burst of pace, shot power and goal scoring prowess is right up with R9 and Romario's style IMO
 

harms

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So when you hear stylistically similar, you expect them to be clones?

When you talk of CBs and their pace to deal with Romario's pace, acceleration and directness, I don't see how it is different to dealing with Eusebio.

Technically, R9 and Eusebio are not similar too then. They share a few traits like they do with Romario. Not sure what is confusing you there.
No, I expected them to be, well... similar! I really don't see any area in which Romario and Eusebio are resembling each other, certainly not their defining traits. Both were fantastic goalscorers, but even the nature of their goals were very different. I'd also want different defenders to deal with them — while I'll probably choose the same center back to deal with Eusebio and Luis Ronaldo
 

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Not at all, if there was a comparative heatmap, they'd be totally different.

+ Romario was better dribbler, Eusebio was a runner.
+ Romario's best would be in/around the box. Eusebio between the halfway line and box.
+ Romario good at short distance goals, Eusebio had a thundering long distance shot.
+ Romario's contribution outside of his area is low. Eusebio's workrate all over was relatively high.

and most importantly,

+ Romario is a CF, Eusebio is NOT. He's a SS/RF
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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Sigh, let me try one last time.

We are talking about a CB's capability to deal with a pacy striker who could beat him for pace quite easily.

In that respect, Romario and Eusebio share common traits which could be hard to deal for slow CB's.

The discussion was not about Romario and Eusebio being similar players but about sharing similar traits pace and acceleration wise which could be hard for slower CBs like Vasovic and Hulshoff to deal with.
 

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Again beg to differ.

If you pass a ball to a CF expecting dribbling, quick turn and score etc, then Romario would be your man. I doubt Eusebio would be as good as Romario. Similarly if you want a ball picked up and moved forward from deep, Eusebio is your man. Romario will not be as good.

Romario has acceleration over short distances, Eusebio has pace over long distance. Quite distinct and offers different threats for the CB.

It's like saying Bolt and Farah are similar because they are both fast runners.