General discussion thread

[Synco]

Despite how much of contemporary football has been influenced by it i'm not sure the Dutch midfield football styles of the 60s-90s produced many players who would (as they played back then) easily transfer into the popular ideas of modern defensive-holding midfielders as positionally cautious, disciplined interceptor and/or distribution focal point. At least not as far as their better international players go. When i look at Dutch midfield (international and the more famous clubs) style of that time, even from 90% of their players that were often primarily mentioned as being more defensive in style, i see an emphasis on high-intensity versatility and covering a lot of ground in a generally b2h approach from everyone in the middle-line, often with lots of aggressive physicality and forcing duels.

Maybe Willy van de Kerkhof was the closest to the most typical DM trends as his main way of playing? He was nicknamed Vacuum cleaner for his disciplined, tactically smart defensive style in midfield and intelligent passing, though from what i've seen he was still quite expansive. Other players noted for defensive prowess like Davids, Winter, Haan, Jansen, Wouters right up to Van Bommel were all proactive (in initiating 1 vs 1s) roaming players (Davids could be compared to Kante in some ways) that would plug into different roles often. Not that they were necessarily defensively too reckless for the systems and era's they were in, or didn't play more reserved at certain times, but it wasn't their main game. In their usual style i doubt any would play as the deepest midfielder were they around today.

Couldn't possibly judge all these players you mention, but what you say rings true.

Although maybe this isn't just exclusive to Dutch football, but the classic holding role was less common overall during the 70s and 80s? From that period, I mainly remember busy runners or playmakers in midfield, as opposed to the defensive midfielders of the 90s (Mauro Silva, Deschamps...) and onwards. Very limited sample size, of course.

Random example, Luis Fernandez is usually portrayed as a DM for 80s France. But when I watched him, he moved all over the pitch and was quite attacking-happy. Roughly similar to Rijkaard, probably. Same for guys like Wimmer or most Bayern midfielders of the 70s. So maybe mobile jack-of-all-trades midfielders were generally en vogue & were seen as total footballers during that period, and a specialized holding role became more common the more zonal systems became the norm?

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Yeah, i wouldn't disagree with that. Definitely not exclusive to the Dutch. I think the better South American teams seemed to have a more regular emphasis on a comparable role to the current 6, though this is from memory of many games i've not watched in ages, or the Italians.

The big name French players that played at the base of the square like Tigana and Fernandez always (in the handful of games i''ve seen over the years) had a more defensive destroyer/enforcer sort of player alongside them at club level like Dominique Bathenay and Rene Girard.

 

[Gio]

Couldn't possibly judge all these players you mention, but what you say rings true.

Although maybe this isn't just exclusive to Dutch football, but the classic holding role was less common overall during the 70s and 80s? From that period, I mainly remember busy runners or playmakers in midfield, as opposed to the defensive midfielders of the 90s (Mauro Silva, Deschamps...) and onwards. Very limited sample size, of course.

Random example, Luis Fernandez is usually portrayed as a DM for 80s France. But when I watched him, he moved all over the pitch and was quite attacking-happy. Roughly similar to Rijkaard, probably. Same for guys like Wimmer or most Bayern midfielders of the 70s. So maybe mobile jack-of-all-trades midfielders were generally en vogue & were seen as total footballers during that period, and a specialized holding role became more common the more zonal systems became the norm?

Aye, the 6 today is primarily a possession player for the build-up, whereas the 6 of the 70s and 80s in 3-man units had those all-round responsibilities which required more vertical movement.

 

[Physiocrat]

Why did the destroyer 6 come into existence in the 90/00s?

The earliest modern possession 6 I remember seeing is Sergio Batista (played DM in Argentina's 86 side). I had him once in a draft and watched a few comps. Looked a tidy player.

 

[Synco]

Why did the destroyer 6 come into existence in the 90/00s?

The earliest modern possession 6 I remember seeing is Sergio Batista (played DM in Argentina's 86 side). I had him once in a draft and watched a few comps. Looked a tidy player.

Toninho for Brazil?

 

[Physiocrat]

Toninho for Brazil?

Possibly but he got forward quite a bit in 82 IIRC.

 

[Synco]

Possibly but he got forward quite a bit in 82 IIRC.

Yeah, he did, guess it's a matter of definition.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

as we were talking about Rijkaard here, one thing i noticed is that he was very lazy tracking back once he got beat or ball just went behind him(imagine those clips of McTominay few months ago)....would just walk back or casually stroll back while opposition attacked freely through center on the open pitch. He was a willing presser otherwise so no idea whats happening there.

 

[Physiocrat]

Tabloid headline: "Rijkaard is a rich man's McTominay", says Utd boss Sjor Bepo.

 

[Himannv]

FFS!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Tabloid headline: "Rijkaard is a rich man's McTominay", says Utd boss Sjor Bepo.