General discussion thread

[Invictus]

Cheers. I might take on a small project and create a database of draft winners.

No need to waste your time. I had a list that I abandoned a while ago, but the mini-discussion gave me the impetus to finally update it...

Caveats:
• Couldn't be arsed to go back and exclude @Tuppet's winners.
• I haven't triple-checked it so there might be a couple of errors.

In alphabetical order (first name):

Alan Ball: 1
Alan Hansen: 2
Albert Shesternyov: 2
Alberto Tarantini: 1
Aleksandar Shalamanov: 1
Alessandro del Piero: 1
Alessandro Costacurta: 1
Alessandro Nesta: 5
Alex Raisbeck: 1
Alex Stepney: 1
Alf Sherwood: 1
Allan Simonsen: 1
Amadeo Carboni: 1
Amadeo Carrizo: 1
Amancio Amaro: 1
Anatoliy Demyanenko: 1
Anderson: 1
Andrea Ranocchia: 1
Andreas Brehme: 3
Andrés Iniesta: 2
Andriy Shevchenko: 2
Andy Goram: 1
Antonio Cabrini: 1
Arjen Robben: 5
Arsenio Erico: 1
Arthur Albiston: 1
Ashley Cole: 5
Atsuto Uchida: 1
Bastian Schweinsteiger: 7
Bixente Lizarazu: 1
Bobby Charlton: 2
Bobby Moore: 5
Bodo Illgner: 1
Brad Friedel: 1
Branco: 1
Brian Laudrup: 1
Bruno Conti: 1
Bryan Robson: 5
Cafú: 4
Carles Puyol: 1
Carlos Alberto: 6
César Azpilicueta: 1
Christian Vieri: 1
Ciro Ferrera: 3
Claude Makelélé: 1
Claudio Bravo: 1
Claudio Gentile: 2
Cláudio Taffarel: 2
Clodoaldo: 1
Cristiano Ronaldo: 8
Dani Alves: 1
Daniel Passarella: 3
Daniele de Rossi: 1
Danny McGrain: 1
David Alaba: 2
David de Gea: 4
David Silva: 1
David Villa: 1
Davor Šuker: 1
Dejan Savićević: 1
Denis Law: 4
Des Walker: 1
Didi: 2
Diego Fuser: 1
Diego Forlán: 1
Diego Godín: 2
Diego Maradona: 8
Diego Simeone: 2
Dirceu: 1
Dixie Dean: 1
Djalma Santos: 4
Domingos da Guia: 1
Dragan Dzajić: 2
Duncan Edwards: 4
Dunga: 1
Edgar Davids: 4
Edinson Cavani: 1
Edmílson: 1
Edwin van der Sar: 4
Elías Figueroa: 7
Eric Abidal: 1
Eric Gerets: 7
Esteban Granero: 1
Eusébio: 1
Fabio Cannavaro: 3
Ferenc Puskás : 2 (1 as lead striker)
Fernando Hierro: 2
Fernando Redondo: 3
Filipe Luís: 1
Francesco Toldo: 1
Francesco Totti: 1
Francisco Arce: 1
Francisco Gento: 1
Franck Ribéry: 1
Franco Baresi: 6
Frank Rijkaard: 7 (0 as CB)
František Plánička: 1
Franz Beckenbauer: 8 (6 as midfielder)
Gabriel Batistuta: 3
Gaetano Scirea: 7
Gaizka Mendieta: 1
Gareth Bale: 1
Garrincha: 4
Gary Neville: 1
Gary Pallister: 1
George Best: 5
George Weah: 1
Gerd Müller: 5
Gérson: 1
Gheorghe Hagi: 2
Giacinto Facchetti: 9
Gianfranco Zola: 1
Gianluca Zambrotta: 1
Gianluigi Buffon: 2
Gianni Rivera: 1
Gilmar: 1
Giorgio Chiellini: 1
Giuseppe Bergomi: 2
Giuseppe Signori: 1
Gordon Banks: 1
Graeme Le Saux: 1
Graeme Souness: 2
Grzegorz Lato: 1
Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck: 1
Hans-Peter Briegel: 1
Harry Gregg: 1
Harry Kewell: 1
Héctor Chumpitaz: 1
Hristo Stoichkov: 4
Hugo Sánchez: 2
Ian Rush: 1
Igor Netto: 1
Ilkay Gündogan: 1
Jaap Stam: 7
Jack Wilshere: 1
Jairzinho: 4
Jan Popluhár: 1
Jan van Beveren: 1
Javier Hernández: 1
Javier Mascherano: 1
Javier Zanetti: 6
Jean Tigana: 5
Jeffrén Suárez: 1
Jens Lehmann: 1
Jerome Boateng: 1
Jimmy Greaves: 1
Jimmy Johnstone: 1
Joaquín: 1
Jocelyn Angloma: 1
Joe Hart: 1
Jeroen Zoet: 1
Johan Cruyff: 2 (1 as False 9)
Johan Neeskens: 5
John Barnes: 1
José Antonio Camacho: 2
José Luis Chilavert: 2
José Leandro Andrade: 1
Josef Masopust: 2
Jozsef Bozsik: 1
Juan Jesus: 1
Juan Joya: 1
Juan Mata: 1
Julian Draxler: 1
Jürgen Kohler: 6
Karlheinz Förster: 3
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: 3
Karl-Heinz Schnellinger: 3
Kevin de Bruyne: 3
Klaus Urbanczyk: 1
Kyriakos Papadopolous: 1
Ladislao Mazurkiewicz: 2
Laurent Blanc: 1
Leovegildo Júnior: 1
Lilian Thuram: 7
Lionel Messi: 8 (1 as False 9)
Lothar Matthäus: 4
Lúcio: 1
Luigi Riva: 1
Luis Enrique: 1
Luís Figo: 3
Luís Pereira: 1
Luis Suárez: 1
Luis Suárez Miramontes: 3
Luka Modrić: 1
Manfred Kaltz: 1
Manuel Amoros: 2
Manuel Neuer: 1
Marc Overmars: 1
Marcel Desailly: 9 (4 as DM)
Marco Tardelli: 1
Marco van Basten: 6
Marco Verratti: 2
Marcos Rojo: 1
Mario Basler: 1
Mário Coluna: 1
Mario Götze: 1
Mario Kempes: 1
Mark Hughes: 1
Mauro Silva: 2
Matthias Sammer: 5
Maxime Bossis: 1
Michael Essien: 2
Michael Konsel: 1
Michael Laudrup: 3
Michel Platini: 6
Michel Preud'homme: 4
Mike England: 1
Milutin Šoskić: 1
Miralem Pjanić: 1
Miroslav Klose: 1
Nani: 1
Nemanja Vidić: 5
Neven Subotić: 1
Neymar: 1
Nílton Santos: 6
Nobby Stiles: 1
Obdulio Varela: 2
Oleg Blokhin: 2
Oliver Kahn: 1
Oscar Ruggeri: 3
Osvaldo Ardiles: 1
Paolo Maldini: 12 (5 as leftback in 4)
Pat Jennings: 1
Patrice Evra: 2
Patrick Vieira: 3
Paul Breitner: 4 (1 as leftback)
Paul Ince: 1
Paul McGrath: 2
Paul Madeley: 1
Paul Scholes: 1
Paulo Roberto Falcão: 3
Pavel Nedvěd: 5
Pelé: 9
Peter Beardsley: 1
Peter Platzer: 1
Peter Schmeichel: 7
Peter Shilton: 1
Petr Čech: 1
Phil Neal: 1
Philipp Lahm: 2
Piet Keizer: 2
Pietro Vierchowod: 3
Preben Elkjær: 1
Rainer Bonhof: 1
Rafael da Silva: 1
Raúl Albiol: 1
Raúl González Blanco: 2
Ray Clemence: 1
Ray Wilson: 1
Raymond Kopa: 1
Renato Augusto: 1
Revaz Dzodzuashvili: 1
Ricardo Carvalho: 1
Ricardo Kaká: 1
Rinat Dasayev: 3
Rio Ferdinand: 6
Rivaldo: 4
Rob Jones: 1
Rob Rensenbrink: 2
Roberto Baggio: 4
Roberto Bettega: 1
Roberto Carlos: 3
Roberto Rosato: 1
Roger Byrne: 1
Romário: 4
Romelu Lukaku: 1
Ronaldo Luís: 9
Roy Keane: 7
Ronaldinho: 6
Roy Keane: 1
Ruud Gullit: 4
Ruud Krol: 4
Ruud van Nistelrooy: 1
Ryan Giggs: 5
Samuel Eto'o: 1
Sándor Kocsis: 2
Sandro Mazzola: 1
Santiago Cañizares: 1
Sepp Maier: 1
Silvio Marzolini: 1
Sol Campbell: 2
Søren Lerby: 1
Stanley Matthews: 1
Stefan Effenberg: 2
Stefan Reuter: 1
Steve Coppell: 2
Steve McManaman: 1
Steven Gerrard: 2
Svatopluk Pluskal: 1
Tarcisio Burgnich: 1
Teófilo Cubillas: 1
Terry Butcher: 1
Terry Cooper: 1
Thiago Alcântara: 1
Thiago Silva: 2
Thibaut Courtois: 1
Thierry Henry: 6
Thomas Helmer: 1
Tobias Sippel: 1
Ubaldo Fillol: 4
Uli Stielike: 1
Uwe Seeler: 2
Valery Voronin: 4
Velibor Vasović: 1
Vladimir Jugović: 1
Wayne Bridge: 1
Wayne Rooney: 1
Wesley Sneijder: 1
Willem van Hanegem: 1
Willi Schulz: 1
William Gallas: 1
Wim Suurbier: 1
Wolfgang Overath: 1
Xabi Alonso: 3
Xavi Hernández: 2
Yuri Djorkaeff: 1
Zé Roberto: 1
Zico: 2
Zbigiew Boniek: 2
Zinédine Zidane: 3
Zito: 3
Zizinho: 1
Zlatan Ibrahimović: 1
Zoltán Czibor: 1
Zygmunt Anczok: 2

Best of the Best:

12 x

: Paolo Maldini

10 x

: Pelé

9 x

: Giacinto Facchetti, Marcel Desailly, Ronaldo Luís

8 x

: Cristiano Ronaldo, Diego Maradona, Franz Beckenbauer, Lionel Messi

Spoiler: Additional Notes

• As expected Di Stéfano has never won a tourney, but Eusébio managed to squeak one in with the NT peak Draft.
• A few bizarre winners, like Anderson and Wilshere and Rojo and Lukaku and Chicharito, mostly because of niche themes in the olden days.
• Messi and Cristiano have won 4 drafts with each other, which is exactly half of their total!
• Most successful United players after Cristiano: Fußballgott, Jaap Stam, Peter Schmeichel and Roy Keane with 7 wins each.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's brilliant @Invictus

 

[2mufc0]

No need to waste your time. I had a list that I abandoned a while ago, but the mini-discussion gave me the impetus to finally update it...

Caveats:
• Couldn't be arsed to go back and exclude @Tuppet's winners.
• I haven't triple-checked it so there might be a couple of errors.

Best of the Best:

Best of the Best:

12 x

: Paolo Maldini

10 x

: Pelé

9 x

: Giacinto Facchetti, Marcel Desailly, Ronaldo Luís

8 x

: Cristiano Ronaldo, Diego Maradona, Franz Beckenbauer, Lionel Messi

Spoiler: Additional Notes

• As expected Di Stéfano has never won a tourney, but Eusébio managed to squeak one in with the NT peak Draft.
• A few bizarre winners, like Anderson and Wilshere and Rojo and Lukaku and Chicharito, mostly because of niche themes in the olden days.
• Messi and Cristiano have won 4 drafts with each other, which is exactly half of their total!
• Most successful United players after Cristiano: Fußballgott, Jaap Stam, Peter Schmeichel and Roy Keane with 7 wins each.

Nice work!

 

[Physiocrat]

Oh man, my never won a draft draft idea would be incredibly difficult

 

[2mufc0]

@Invictus just realised you have Keane in there twice.

 

[Theon]

Great work @Invictus

These are really interesting to me - all of them winning the majority of times in not their best role.

• Paolo Maldini: 12 (5 as leftback in 4)
• Lionel Messi: 8 (1 as False 9)
• Franz Beckenbauer: 8 (6 as midfielder

Messi only winning once as a false #9 is incredible! That’s comfortably (imo, others probably disagree) the highest level any footballer ever reached so to only win once is a surprise. I’ve seen backlash a few times re that Barca side (backed up by Xavi only winning twice) and seems unless it’s a very accurate remake it doesn’t go down too well.

 

[Invictus]

@Invictus just realised you have Keane in there twice.

Cheers for highlighting that, must be an artifact. He could have a total of 7 or (7+1), who knows? Will take a looksie when I have time to spare...

 

[Synco]

Messi only winning once as a false #9 is incredible! That’s comfortably (imo, others probably disagree) the highest level any footballer ever reached so to only win once is a surprise. I’ve seen backlash a few times re that Barca side (backed up by Xavi only winning twice) and seems unless it’s a very accurate remake it doesn’t go down too well.

Seems so, yes. Judging by recent drafts, people have very specific criteria for which players fit Messi in that role.

@Invictus great work, will make for a cool draft.

 

[Invictus]

These are really interesting to me - all of them winning the majority of times in not their best role.

• Paolo Maldini: 12 (5 as leftback in 4)
• Lionel Messi: 8 (1 as False 9)
• Franz Beckenbauer: 8 (6 as midfielder

Messi only winning once as a false #9 is incredible! That’s comfortably (imo, others probably disagree) the highest level any footballer ever reached so to only win once is a surprise. I’ve seen backlash a few times re that Barca side (backed up by Xavi only winning twice) and seems unless it’s a very accurate remake it doesn’t go down too well.

If I recall correctly, there's an even split for Maldini at leftback-in-a-4 and LCB-in-a-5, with the remaining wins coming as centerback-in-a-4. All things considered it's a decent representation of his skill set as you would be hard pressed to name better left sided centerbacks for a 5-man defense!

The Messi thing is definitely egregious, but as you pointed out we tend to have a fairly defined idea of him as a False 9 so you need to be precise with the way the team is built — ideally hard working wide attackers who are good at positional play and can revolve around him, a possession-oriented midfield, and so forth — requires a great degree of optimization, which limits the options in a GOAT context. Wide attacker/playmaker Messi is more flexible as you have plenty of options (particularly in the attack) and can be much more flexible with regard to team-building and overall approach. Though funnily enough, the time Messi won as a False 9, he wasn't in a typical tiki-taka ultra-possession setup — having Ribéry/Robben out wide and Breitner/de Bruyne/Bonhof in midfield.

Kaiser is somewhat understandable as you need to be very careful with him in defense and have to play close attention to his synergies with the fullback on his side as well as the stopper who covers for him — which can be quite tricky and limits the pool you can draw from. Whereas in the center of the pitch, the community has less stringent requirements and he is usually good to go as a midfield libero or as a holder (and has even coexisted with GOAT #10s just ahead of him).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Fantastic work @Invictus . I find it really surprising that Pele has won more than Maradona and L. Ronaldo. I know it tends to be cyclical but it seemed to me that there was a protracted period where there were grumblings that Pele tended to be overlooked, and that those two were basically the ultimate cheat codes. Would love to try your Virgin Draft idea. Even compiling a shortlist would be tough, and it might be the sort of draft where voting numbers drop further, but we're really, really overdue some drafts where we freshen up the pool. There's so many interesting players out there who never get a look in.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

It's only the greek league, but this is one of the more impressive goals collections i've seen in years in terms of players i've not been too familiar with before.

Seems he had the offer to move to Juventus in late '80s, but Panathinaikos refused to sell.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It's only the greek league, but this is one of the more impressive goals collections i've seen in years in terms of players i've not been too familiar with before.

Seems he had the offer to move to Juventus in late '80s, but Panathinaikos refused to sell.

Impressive. Never heard of him before too.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

In general have seen voting numbers being better with Coropa league being active as well. Excellent game with two good teams yesterday with only 6 neutral votes.

Just a general idea for future drafts.

1. For QF's, the winners pick 2 players from all the losers teams. Cant pick more than 2 players from each team.
2. If you pick a round X player from the Coropa league team, you need to drop your round X+1 player.
3. You can't pick two players from the same round. (only 1 round X player can be picked)
4. All the dropped players and unpicked players go in reinforcement pool for coropa league.
5. From semis onwards, the pools will be big enough.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

if you want big voting numbers dont stack the teams with GOATs, in most cases its impossible to separate the teams because they are stacked with top 10 players on their positions and by now after 612979 drafts you very rarely see a tactical feck up, specially in later rounds.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

if you want big voting numbers dont stack the teams with GOATs, in most cases its impossible to separate the teams because they are stacked with top 10 players on their positions and by now after 612979 drafts you very rarely see a tactical feck up, specially in later rounds.

While that is partly the motive, want to see if its some way possible to have a parallel league with losing teams without fecking up reinforcement.

 

[harms]

The quality of footage is incredible. FIFA had generated some great content over the past few months.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Footballia is down for a few days

UEFA going after them for copyright

 

[harms]

Yeah, it's been coming for a while. They're quite optimistic about the outcome though.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Some footage of Hennady Lytovchenko, one of the top tier of '80s ussr midfielders. and part of the Euro 88 team. He has became known for his excellent right-foot passing and shooting, vision and partnership with Protasov at Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk, who had their years as a title-challenger mostly coinciding with his presence. Not a quick player, but high workrate and skillful on the ball, he favoured the right side and imo drifted between a style that fits in with a lot of the more technical - wide in a 4-4-2 - British/Irish midfielders of that era like John Robertson, Kevin Sheedy, Trevor Steven, Strachan and a more contintental central organising role. For the NT generally played a supporting role as Loban preferred organising his schemes through his own players with orchestrational/through ball abilities in Mykhaylychenko and Zavarov ( Lytovchenko having only just moved to Kyiv). Surprisingly for someone that was a very consistent assist provider from dead balls, he was only an occasional taker of shots from free kicks.

His and Protasov move to Dynamo for the 88 season was a source of considerable bitterness among fans at the times as Kyiv had long been accused by rivals of owing success to poaching all the other Ukrainian clubs talent, but actually ended up almost certainly being a huge motivating factor in Dnipro winning their second ever league title (first in 83) in 88 despite their two star players heading to an already generally stronger club. They have finished second in 87 with those two leading the way, but a decline was now expected by everyone only for the reverse to happen. To add further insult Dnipro then finished aboved them in second place for the 89 season too.

Lytovchenko and Protasov eventually moved to the financially dodgy at the time Olympiakos in a backward career step no doubt facilitated by the random appearance of Blokhin there in his first entirely unqualified for managerial role.

footage is mostly just goals with unfortunately hardly any passing, but the highlight of the couple of seasons at the end of his career with Olympiakos does highlight some dead ball delivery as well.

 

[harms]

 

[Synco]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Choo choo!

 

[Synco]

(moved, as to not spam the match compilation thread too much)

A classic. I do recall this match being used as a stick to beat Stam with (turning like a truck against the agile Edmundo & Romario duo)* but he was the only United defender who fared well in this match imo. Neville gave a performance that would make Gerrard swoon and Silvestre was just lost.

Romario though, just deadly.

*I myself had used that against him in draft matches but it seems harsh, lazy and baseless thinking about it now

Stam always appeared to be notably agile and well-coordinated for his built and strength to me, and damn pacy even in absolute terms. On top of that came his mental quickness and anticipation. (Visible in this compilation too, imo.) This game aside, is there any real-life foundation to the claims he would struggle against tricky smaller guys?

I wasn't a regular watcher of United/Lazio/Milan back then, so my exposure to him was somewhat limited. But I was generally impressed with the above when I saw him, and I especially remember my astonishment when he played RB for Lazio at times.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

(moved, as to not spam the match compilation thread too much)

Stam always appeared to be notably agile and well-coordinated for his built and strength to me, and damn pacy even in absolute terms. On top of that came his mental quickness and anticipation. (Visible in this compilation too, imo.) This game aside, is there any real-life foundation to the claims he would struggle against tricky smaller guys?

I wasn't a regular watcher of United/Lazio/Milan back then, so my exposure to him was somewhat limited. But I was generally impressed with the above when I saw him, and I especially remember my astonishment when he played RB for Lazio at times.

I can't think of any personally. From memory he could look unusually slow-paced and leaden-footed when he was rusty and lacking match fitness (vs Anelka for example when he first joined us) but when he was fully fit he was a monster of a defender and one of the best I've seen in 1 on 1 duels. I'm a shite judge at stuff like this but where I'd say he was lacking slightly compared to other greats was his reading of the game. I'd struggle to pick out examples but he just never really exuded that sense of authority and reading of the game that the likes of Nesta and Rio exhibited. Keane said something similar in his first autobiography*:

I felt that, nice guy though he was, Jaap was limited at the highest level.Great when the ball was there to win, quick and a real physical presence. But his positional play was inadequate. Jaap struggled against the best attacking players. He lacked the cunning instincts the best defenders have.

It's the reason I rate Vidic slighltly higher than Stam personally, despite most Utd supporters seemingly rating Stam higher and Stam being seen as Vidic with pace in draft circles. Again it's something that I'm not astute enough to actually pinpoint, but Vidic just seemed that bit better at reading the game and organising a defence to me.

Stam to me was a brilliant defender overall, but maybe one of the few modern ones who would have been in his element as an old-school stopper alongside a sweeper rather than a zonal specialist.

* Couldn't find that Keane book anywhere in the house so just bought it on Kindle to find that one quote. Draft forum life

 

[Synco]

I can't think of any personally. From memory he could look unusually slow-paced and leaden-footed when he was rusty and lacking match fitness (vs Anelka for example when he first joined us) but when he was fully fit he was a monster of a defender and one of the best I've seen in 1 on 1 duels. I'm a shite judge at stuff like this but where I'd say he was lacking slightly compared to other greats was his reading of the game. I'd struggle to pick out examples but he just never really exuded that sense of authority and reading of the game that the likes of Nesta and Rio exhibited. Keane said something similar in his first autobiography*:



It's the reason I rate Vidic slighltly higher than Stam personally, despite most Utd supporters seemingly rating Stam higher and Stam being seen as Vidic with pace in draft circles. Again it's something that I'm not astute enough to actually pinpoint, but Vidic just seemed that bit better at reading the game and organising a defence to me.

Stam to me was a brilliant defender overall, but maybe one of the few modern ones who would have been in his element as an old-school stopper alongside a sweeper rather than a zonal specialist.

Hm, from memory I'm with the forum consensus there, although Keane saying otherwise is a pretty good argument. But I must say it puzzles me a bit, although I'm the first to admit a lack of tactical understanding in that regard. Maybe others can chime in as well?

* Couldn't find that Keane book anywhere in the house so just bought it on Kindle to find that one quote. Draft forum life

Yep, that's the spirit!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Im with keano’s mustard, vida over stam.

 

[Jim Beam]

No chance.

 

[Joga Bonito]

(moved, as to not spam the match compilation thread too much)

Stam always appeared to be notably agile and well-coordinated for his built and strength to me, and damn pacy even in absolute terms. On top of that came his mental quickness and anticipation. (Visible in this compilation too, imo.) This game aside, is there any real-life foundation to the claims he would struggle against tricky smaller guys?

I wasn't a regular watcher of United/Lazio/Milan back then, so my exposure to him was somewhat limited. But I was generally impressed with the above when I saw him, and I especially remember my astonishment when he played RB for Lazio at times.

Good post, agreed with that. Vidic with pace is harsh on Vidic as there was nothing much between them (and seeing as Stam did rely to some extent on his pace and athleticism, you could argue that Vidic was the better 'pure defender') but as a complete package I'll give Stam the nod myself. Having to go up against Stam & Keane in that side was a real nightmare for the opposition.

 

[harms]

I find it hard to separate them personally. I'd take Stam as a one-man defense, but if you already have a top pacey center back like Rio, I'd pick Vidić.

 

[Gio]

(moved, as to not spam the match compilation thread too much)

Stam always appeared to be notably agile and well-coordinated for his built and strength to me, and damn pacy even in absolute terms. On top of that came his mental quickness and anticipation. (Visible in this compilation too, imo.) This game aside, is there any real-life foundation to the claims he would struggle against tricky smaller guys?

I wasn't a regular watcher of United/Lazio/Milan back then, so my exposure to him was somewhat limited. But I was generally impressed with the above when I saw him, and I especially remember my astonishment when he played RB for Lazio at times.

To be honest @Joga Bonito I don’t recall much criticism of Stam in this forum. The only black mark against his CV was when he was called up for international drafts where his tournament performances were not as persuasive as his man-mountain displays at club level.

Agree with the stylistic points there - his balance and agility for his size in exposed scenarios hugely impressed. Only a handful of players of his build had that aura where a quick striker could stand them up 1v1 in space and you were confident they’d boss it. It's a quality I rate highly and very few defenders had, particularly the bigger ones whose strengths typically lay in the air or in crowded penalty boxes.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Beckham's peak position might be a RCM rather than a RM. He cuts in as much as he hugs the touchline and influential in both areas.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think Beckham's peak position might be a RCM rather than a RM. He cuts in as much as he hugs the touchline and influential in both areas.

Agreed.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[harms]

What do you think RM does and what is a difference between right midfielder and a winger? Can you give us examples of such players? Cheers.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

RCM (4-3-3) vs RM (4-4-2)

 

[Synco]

Watched a few 2010 Milan games recently, and I wanted to share one thing with you:

Pirlo absolutely has a defensive presence in that team. He does the work in terms of running and positioning, he makes interceptions and interventions. He also takes part in pressing efforts, although Milan doesn't do it often, extensively, or intensely. His main tools are intelligence and anticipation, but he can also be robust on occasion. I'd say he's fine inside any defensively solid structure, like Ancelotti or Schuster. (Although at least the latter still has more physical presence.)

To illustrate, here are the defensive stats for the 2009/10 home game against Napoli. It was an extraordinary game for him defensively, but it's a good statement against the perception of a defensive bystander:

tackles (att/succ) .......... 6/6
interceptions ................... 4
clearances ....................... 1
blocks .............................. 1
aerials won ...................... 3 (albeit one of them offensively, in the oppo box)

Another aspect of his game is that he shifts intelligently between his DLP role and AM positions (when Milan is positioned high), orchestrating the game in the final third, looking for attacking passes and shooting opportunities. (Edit: He also goes wide and whips crosses in.)

Just to enhance the profile of a player who wasn't one-dimensional at all, but brought a variety of good things to his teams.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thank you! Pick Pirlo and it is like you picked a sheep around here. Doubt it will change much though.

 

[Himannv]

I'm still sore about people not rating him much even when paired alongside Keane and Davids.

 

[harms]

I'm still sore about people not rating him much even when paired alongside Keane and Davids.

Yeah, that’s absurd.

Thank you! Pick Pirlo and it is like you picked a sheep around here. Doubt it will change much though.

I think the view on him has been changing for the better for a while, but it’s a long process.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

cant play with Hidegkuti #shit

 

[Synco]

Legend