German Football 20/21

Bazi

Full Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
1,101
Supports
Bayern Munich
I do not care about that. He was for free when Chelsea wanted to rob us for Hudson-Odoi. And I really enjoy his playing. He is really far for a 17-year old.
It matters in the context of the FC Bayern campus' ability to develop talent for the 1st team. I pretty much expected none of the recent graduates to make it in the 1st team. Stiller was the last one that I had hopes for.
 

Blackwidow

Full Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
6,460
It matters in the context of the FC Bayern campus' ability to develop talent for the 1st team. I pretty much expected none of the recent graduates to make it in the 1st team. Stiller was the last one that I had hopes for.
A jump from central midfield directly to the first team? The midfielders that came from the academy usually made it on other position.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
If Dortmund don't win this Favre will dominate a certain talk show tomorrow.


Leverkusen are basking in the glory of their transfer window.
 
Last edited:

Damien

Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin)
Staff
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
88,247
Brandt false 9 seems like it is setting him up to fail. Hope they win but it probably won't be pretty.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
Brandt false 9 seems like it is setting him up to fail. Hope they win but it probably won't be pretty.
He's played a couple of games in that role. A few looked pretty decent, in another few he was fairly invisible. He will only have to last 45-60 minutes there anyway, before Haaland probably comes on to do his thing against tired legs.
Dortmund only got 2 points from their last 5 matches against Hoffenheim; that certainly isn't a good omen, especially with such a lineup. On the other hand Corona took out Kramaric, who can probably be considered Hoffenheim's standout player by mile.


And if anyone has missed it: because of the international break the Friday night game has been pushed back a day, so after the Bielefeld-Bayern top game we get Gladbach-Wolfsburg as the "super top game" at 20:30 CET.
 
Last edited:

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
Hoffenheim were so bad today, it's hard to believe they actually beat Bayern. Just offering sooo much space all around: on the wings, between the lines and behind their backline. What continues though is Dortmund struggle to make runs into depth, Hakimi is such a huge miss and Meunier feels almost like a non-entity in that regard. With the rotational line up this was even exacerbated. After Reus, Haaland and Guerreiro came on they had little trouble creating plenty of opportunities.

Oh and I'm loathing Brandt more with every game. It's not what he does on the ball so much as how he switches off without it. The squad's character has improved a lot in that regard over recent years. Can and Haaland in particular look like huge additions in terms of what most people would probably call mentality. It's just two players that are standing out in a bad way. Sancho, who let's be honest is so good on the ball that he can just get away with it and Julian fecking Brandt, who seems to prefer getting displaced by two 17 year olds rather than putting in the work.
 

GameOn

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
185
Hoffenheim were so bad today, it's hard to believe they actually beat Bayern. Just offering sooo much space all around: on the wings, between the lines and behind their backline. What continues though is Dortmund struggle to make runs into depth, Hakimi is such a huge miss and Meunier feels almost like a non-entity in that regard. With the rotational line up this was even exacerbated. After Reus, Haaland and Guerreiro came on they had little trouble creating plenty of opportunities.

Oh and I'm loathing Brandt more with every game. It's not what he does on the ball so much as how he switches off without it. The squad's character has improved a lot in that regard over recent years. Can and Haaland in particular look like huge additions in terms of what most people would probably call mentality. It's just two players that are standing out in a bad way. Sancho, who let's be honest is so good on the ball that he can just get away with it and Julian fecking Brandt, who seems to prefer getting displaced by two 17 year olds rather than putting in the work.
Unfortunately you can't coach mentality.

Haaland is a player, who just oozes that winners mentality.

Brandt has that Özil vibe. Faiweather player.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
Unfortunately you can't coach mentality.

Haaland is a player, who just oozes that winners mentality.

Brandt has that Özil vibe. Faiweather player.
He doesn't have to be as extreme a case as Haaland, who at times might be better served conserving some energy instead of chasing a goal that amounts to little more than cosmetics like it means winning the world cup.

Brandt seems like a reasonably mature and intelligent person in interviews, he surely must understand that he has to improve these things if he doesn't want to piss away his club and international career. It's not like with Özil who has a fat retirement contract and a trophy haul that puts a lot of clubs to shame.
 

GhastlyHun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
9,788
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Bayern München
Müller and Lewandowski continue their mutual goal and assist partnership.

Both finish with two goals and an assist. ^^

Second half Bayern went into hibernation for way too long. Low point was Javi setting up Tolisso as last man with that horrible pass, and the sending off that resulted from it. Was a better game from us then with 10 men for the remaining time.
 
Last edited:

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
Disappointing game from Gladbach tonight. I expected them to struggle with the extra packed schedule, but the CL hasn't even started yet and they already dropped points in three out of four matches. With Leverkusen hitting self destruct there seems to be potential for a real surprise for the 4th spot.
 

WI_Red

Say Cheese!
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
967
Supports
Atlanta United
With the move to ESPN+ here in the states I have not had as many opportunities to watch the Bundesliga as the last few years, and when I do I usually try to catch Dortmund. I was wondering if ya'll could give your thoughts on Tyler Adams this year. Yes, I know its very American centric of me but.....
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
2,832
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Hoffenheim were so bad today, it's hard to believe they actually beat Bayern. Just offering sooo much space all around: on the wings, between the lines and behind their backline. What continues though is Dortmund struggle to make runs into depth, Hakimi is such a huge miss and Meunier feels almost like a non-entity in that regard. With the rotational line up this was even exacerbated. After Reus, Haaland and Guerreiro came on they had little trouble creating plenty of opportunities.

Oh and I'm loathing Brandt more with every game. It's not what he does on the ball so much as how he switches off without it. The squad's character has improved a lot in that regard over recent years. Can and Haaland in particular look like huge additions in terms of what most people would probably call mentality. It's just two players that are standing out in a bad way. Sancho, who let's be honest is so good on the ball that he can just get away with it and Julian fecking Brandt, who seems to prefer getting displaced by two 17 year olds rather than putting in the work.
IMO Brandt's decision to join Dortmund was just shocking. I agree that he comes across as an intelligent person in interviews but I still think he lacks self reflection. I recently heard he said that he doesn't care which position he plays and that's just rubbish. He's a mediocre player on the wings or as a false 9 but a great one at CM. Probably the German player who is the least flexible right now but still is always played out of position. And at this point, he's to blame for that as well.

For the majority of his career at Leverkusen, he looked as he currently does for Dortmund. Only when Bosz arrived he turned it around and played like a young god, finally on a position that suits him perfectly. To this day I just can't understand how he threw that away after just a few months. Brandt outclassed Havertz during that time, averaged roughly a scorer a game as a CM and if he continued that form would've been one of the best 8s in world football. But instead he left at the weirdest moment and joined a team that plays a formation in which his position doesn't even exist. And now he's back to his old self again. Supremely talented but just not up to the job. Such a frustrating player. Especially since the other talents of his age group (Sane, Gnabry, Werner, Kimmich, Goretzka) flourish right now and in terms of raw talent, he might even be the best of the bunch - although that feels like a very weird thing to say in his current form.
 

Piratesoup

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
6,059
Supports
Bayern München
For the majority of his career at Leverkusen, he looked as he currently does for Dortmund. Only when Bosz arrived he turned it around and played like a young god, finally on a position that suits him perfectly. To this day I just can't understand how he threw that away after just a few months. Brandt outclassed Havertz during that time, averaged roughly a scorer a game as a CM and if he continued that form would've been one of the best 8s in world football. But instead he left at the weirdest moment and joined a team that plays a formation in which his position doesn't even exist. And now he's back to his old self again. Supremely talented but just not up to the job. Such a frustrating player. Especially since the other talents of his age group (Sane, Gnabry, Werner, Kimmich, Goretzka) flourish right now and in terms of raw talent, he might even be the best of the bunch - although that feels like a very weird thing to say in his current form.
Sounds like he's on his way to doing a reverse Schweinsteiger.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
IMO Brandt's decision to join Dortmund was just shocking. I agree that he comes across as an intelligent person in interviews but I still think he lacks self reflection. I recently heard he said that he doesn't care which position he plays and that's just rubbish. He's a mediocre player on the wings or as a false 9 but a great one at CM. Probably the German player who is the least flexible right now but still is always played out of position. And at this point, he's to blame for that as well.

For the majority of his career at Leverkusen, he looked as he currently does for Dortmund. Only when Bosz arrived he turned it around and played like a young god, finally on a position that suits him perfectly. To this day I just can't understand how he threw that away after just a few months. Brandt outclassed Havertz during that time, averaged roughly a scorer a game as a CM and if he continued that form would've been one of the best 8s in world football. But instead he left at the weirdest moment and joined a team that plays a formation in which his position doesn't even exist. And now he's back to his old self again. Supremely talented but just not up to the job. Such a frustrating player. Especially since the other talents of his age group (Sane, Gnabry, Werner, Kimmich, Goretzka) flourish right now and in terms of raw talent, he might even be the best of the bunch - although that feels like a very weird thing to say in his current form.
This isn't about positions though. He had good games as Witsel's partner and since Dortmund doesn't really use classical attacking wingers anymore he can do well enough in the two attacking midfielder roles as well. This is all about effort and concentration. Bellingham and Reyna are doing incredible well for 17 year olds playing their first professional minutes, but age aside they aren't doing anything special on the pitch and Reyna especially is playing in a way that should be quite natural to Brandt. Maybe he isn't reflected enough about himself - I find it hard to judge that from the outside - but unless you're delusional about yourself being benched for kids just has to get the message through.

And without trying to be offensive: there is just no reason to stay any longer than necessary in Leverkusen. Once you feel ready for the step up it's time to make it. You can't expect to win or even challenge for trophies, you don't really have a great stage to shine further, you don't get "can deal with pressure"-credit, you're not constantly challenged for your spot, you don't get good wages and I'm sure even for professional footballers it must be disappointing to play your home games in a 30k stadium. Brandt showed how good he can be and that was really all he could get from Leverkusen. There just isn't much room to grow individually after you establish yourself as a (very) good Bundesliga player.
On a slightly different scale you see the same at Dortmund: Sancho probably won't be able to replicate his numbers elsewhere (at least not initially), yet wants out, to United even, where there would be quite a real chance of becoming another Pogba. Players know how short their careers and peaks can be, they don't want to wait around.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
2,832
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
This isn't about positions though. He had good games as Witsel's partner and since Dortmund doesn't really use classical attacking wingers anymore he can do well enough in the two attacking midfielder roles as well. This is all about effort and concentration. Bellingham and Reyna are doing incredible well for 17 year olds playing their first professional minutes, but age aside they aren't doing anything special on the pitch and Reyna especially is playing in a way that should be quite natural to Brandt. Maybe he isn't reflected enough about himself - I find it hard to judge that from the outside - but unless you're delusional about yourself being benched for kids just has to get the message through.

And without trying to be offensive: there is just no reason to stay any longer than necessary in Leverkusen. Once you feel ready for the step up it's time to make it. You can't expect to win or even challenge for trophies, you don't really have a great stage to shine further, you don't get "can deal with pressure"-credit, you're not constantly challenged for your spot, you don't get good wages and I'm sure even for professional footballers it must be disappointing to play your home games in a 30k stadium. Brandt showed how good he can be and that was really all he could get from Leverkusen. There just isn't much room to grow individually after you establish yourself as a (very) good Bundesliga player.
On a slightly different scale you see the same at Dortmund: Sancho probably won't be able to replicate his numbers elsewhere (at least not initially), yet wants out, to United even, where there would be quite a real chance of becoming another Pogba. Players know how short their careers and peaks can be, they don't want to wait around.
Not taken offensively, no worries ;) In general I agree and I think Havertz has moved at the perfect time. Others like Tah have even missed the right moments to leave.

Thing is, Brandt wasn't ready for the next step before Bosz took over. And then he played like he never did before. You say he showed how good he can be but I don't fully agree. Had he showed what he did in his short period under Bosz for a full season, whole Europe would've been after him. That was hands down the best performance over 17 games I've seen from any Leverkusen player. Imagine a full season of that. He probably would've ended with 10-15 goals and 15-20 assists as a CM. He would've established himself in that role in public perception and I doubt that his next club would've played him out of position as much as Dortmund do. And he would've probably found his spot in the national team as well.

That's also why I think the comparison with Sancho isn't really a good one. Sancho has two seasons with world class scorers and a third one at age 17 that's still pretty good. He's proven his quality for years at this point. Brandt has done so for half a season. The Brandt before that was still a good player but not good enough for Dortmund.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
Not taken offensively, no worries ;) In general I agree and I think Havertz has moved at the perfect time. Others like Tah have even missed the right moments to leave.

Thing is, Brandt wasn't ready for the next step before Bosz took over. And then he played like he never did before. You say he showed how good he can be but I don't fully agree. Had he showed what he did in his short period under Bosz for a full season, whole Europe would've been after him. That was hands down the best performance over 17 games I've seen from any Leverkusen player. Imagine a full season of that. He probably would've ended with 10-15 goals and 15-20 assists as a CM. He would've established himself in that role in public perception and I doubt that his next club would've played him out of position as much as Dortmund do. And he would've probably found his spot in the national team as well.

That's also why I think the comparison with Sancho isn't really a good one. Sancho has two seasons with world class scorers and a third one at age 17 that's still pretty good. He's proven his quality for years at this point. Brandt has done so for half a season. The Brandt before that was still a good player but not good enough for Dortmund.
It's an easy in hindsight to just extrapolate from that half-season, but as the player in question you probably see the risk of getting an injury or either himself or the team losing that form and his stock falling again. After five years at the club (hard to believe he joined together with players like Can and Son, who moved on seemingly ages before him) he was probably eager for a new challenge anyway and in moving when he did he captured that performance peak with a long term contract. Maybe the EUROs that were supposed to happen that season also played a role, as performances with Dortmund still give you a bit more credit for DIE MANNSCHAFT than with Leverkusen.

Sure, Sancho has been performing at a top level for a season longer, but he's also much younger, playing for a more attractive club and aiming higher than Brandt, so naturally that comparison isn't meant to be a 100% fit.
 
Last edited:

Lagger

Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
908
Supports
FC Bayern
Let's not write Müller into a martyr, the reason why he struggles for certain coaches isn't that they tragically misunderstand his genius it's that he has distinct weaknesses and needs his team mates playing a certain way. Which is fair enough if you're looking at Bayern, because they want to play this way regardless, but even if Löw got sacked his successor won't be one of Germany's star coaches, some pressing merchant would be far more likely.
Also, let's not forget that Müller is on his way out in performance. He's got a few good years left in him, but if you can get a youngster to replace Müller, now's the time not to waste energy on making a Müller comeback happen.
 

Blackwidow

Full Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
6,460
Also, let's not forget that Müller is on his way out in performance. He's got a few good years left in him, but if you can get a youngster to replace Müller, now's the time not to waste energy on making a Müller comeback happen.
The Euros are 2021 - the World Cup 2022. We have the end 2020 and Müller does not even look like declining at all - atleast not in the next 2 years - and his gameplay was never about physical attributes. Yes, every striker has periods being more or less clinical - but he is not just about goals or even about assists even if he by far is more consistent than any of the other German players.

The ones that follow Bayern see how much Müller influences that team not just with his own ball actions but as commander and motivator. Things that the German team totally lacks. And why should not that what functions at Bayern - Müller working e.g. fabulous together with "new" leader Kimmich - work as good for the national team. His teammates of Bayern mainly form the axis for Germany, too. And do not tell me that youngsters can reach that level in the next two years - we will be lucky if anybody in the next seasons reaches his levels...

Just take the quarter final of the World Cup 2014 against France - the last 20 minutes. One of the best performances of a striker I have seen when it is about the defense of a 1:0 lead. I do not know how often the ball landed again with the German team after Müller was pressing the opponent. Can you see any of the other offensives in the German doing something like that so intensively or successful?

But - actually right now it is great that Müller is not playing for the national team. He played through all matches apart from 8 minutes in Schalke after the 8:0 - even full 90 minutes 2 days after playing 120 minutes against Sevilla. Flick gave him a full week holidays during the international break. He played 60 minutes against Düren - and 2 days later again 90 minutes in Bielefeld. In difference to others where Flick has to watch the match times Müller nearly can play through as he will probably get his next week off in the next international break. In my eyes that does not have to change - until end of the season. A lot can happen until then.

A return to the German team can only happen if Müller can play the role he shines in at Bayern. That needs the total backing of the coach - everything less will not work. And there I have doubts about Löw - but even had them before 2018...
 
Last edited:

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
2,832
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
It's an easy in hindsight to just extrapolate from that half-season, but as the player in question you probably see the risk of getting an injury or either himself or the team losing that form and his stock falling again. After five years at the club (hard to believe he joined together with players like Can and Son, who moved on seemingly ages before him) he was probably eager for a new challenge anyway and in moving when he did he captured that performance peak with a long term contract. Maybe the EUROs that were supposed to happen that season also played a role, as performances with Dortmund still give you a bit more credit for DIE MANNSCHAFT than with Leverkusen.

Sure, Sancho has been performing at a top level for a season longer, but he's also much younger, playing for a more attractive club and aiming higher than Brandt, so naturally that comparison isn't meant to be a 100% fit.
In this case, it hasn't really to do with hindsight since this development was foreseeable from the start. In one of the first interviews regarding the Brandt signing, Zorc said that he was a flexible player that would be used in different positions. Moreover, Dortmund doesn't play a formation featuring Brandt's best position. The 10 role is usually too high up the pitch for him since he needs the game in front of him while the two 6 positions need someone with a better defensive work rate, like Witsel, Can, Delaney or Bellingham. At the very least he should've gone to a team playing a 4-3-3 but he didn't seem to care. And that's also the impression you get from him when you listen to his interviews. It's been one year since he left us and he's right back at where he started from.

Also, going by your line of argument, a player should leave immediately once an offer from a bigger club is on the table and I disagree with that. It would've been in Brandt's best interest to play another season under Bosz. As I said, this development was foreseeable. And he could've foreseen it himself if he would accept that there's indeed a position in which he plays significantly better compared to the rest. Honestly, I could've understood the move if it happened before Bosz arrived but this was the weirdest moment in time ever for it.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,332
Location
Germany
In this case, it hasn't really to do with hindsight since this development was foreseeable from the start. In one of the first interviews regarding the Brandt signing, Zorc said that he was a flexible player that would be used in different positions. Moreover, Dortmund doesn't play a formation featuring Brandt's best position. The 10 role is usually too high up the pitch for him since he needs the game in front of him while the two 6 positions need someone with a better defensive work rate, like Witsel, Can, Delaney or Bellingham. At the very least he should've gone to a team playing a 4-3-3 but he didn't seem to care. And that's also the impression you get from him when you listen to his interviews. It's been one year since he left us and he's right back at where he started from.

Also, going by your line of argument, a player should leave immediately once an offer from a bigger club is on the table and I disagree with that. It would've been in Brandt's best interest to play another season under Bosz. As I said, this development was foreseeable. And he could've foreseen it himself if he would accept that there's indeed a position in which he plays significantly better compared to the rest. Honestly, I could've understood the move if it happened before Bosz arrived but this was the weirdest moment in time ever for it.
But he actually has been starting almost all games last season and the majority of them in central midfield. That's kind of my point. It's not like club or coach are trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. There are two roles in the squad that he is good enough to shine on (and has already done so), even if they maybe aren't the theoretically best role possible for him. He's not being asked to do something he can not do, he's just not putting in the necessary effort to be more reliable than the kids.

I wouldn't say players have to take the first big offer. But if it were up to them I think the majority of players would like to leave the second they feel like they have peaked at their current club and/or feel ready for the challenge of a big club.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
2,832
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
But he actually has been starting almost all games last season and the majority of them in central midfield. That's kind of my point. It's not like club or coach are trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. There are two roles in the squad that he is good enough to shine on (and has already done so), even if they maybe aren't the theoretically best role possible for him. He's not being asked to do something he can not do, he's just not putting in the necessary effort to be more reliable than the kids.

I wouldn't say players have to take the first big offer. But if it were up to them I think the majority of players would like to leave the second they feel like they have peaked at their current club and/or feel ready for the challenge of a big club.
But that's not really the case, I think. Especially at the beginning, Favre played Brandt on the wing or even as a false 9. He didn't really consider him for the 6 and Reus was used in the 10 position, at times even Hazard before Brandt. In general, I think it has to do with the formation, too. Since Brandt is defensively too weak for Favre's liking, he hesitates to play him in CM when Dortmund plays with four at the back. But yes, he had brillant games in that position but he was also rotated out of the squad far more regularly once Can joined Dortmund. Especially in the big games. And I can understand Favre's decision if you don't want to reconsider the formation since Brandt can't play in a two man midfield. You essentially want him to have the game in front of him without too many defensive duties, so you either have a 10 that drops back a lot or an 8 in a 4-3-3 or something similar.

And that's what I mean. If he was more realistic about his strengths he wouldn't have gone to Dortmund in this situation. IMO it was dumb to move before he established himself there. As I said, I think it was dumb in general to leave so early after Bosz took over. I've never seen a coach having such an impact on a player. Not only regarding his performances on the pitch, Brandt also became a leader (at one point even wearing the captain's batch) and started to help out in the defense really good. Many fans were completely surprised by that. But even if he decides that he must leave now, at least go to a club that plays a formation or system in which the role you just discovered for yourself and which helped you making the next step in your development exists. Honestly, the current development was so obvious and is no surprise for me at all. I still hope he turns it around and becomes a success but I struggle to see it, currently. Bellingham is just a better fit for the 6 and on the 10 the competition is even bigger.