German Football 20/21

saivet

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Very cagey game to be honest, keepers have not really been tested. Think Red Bull Leipzig have slightly edge that. Haaland been non existent, Olmo bright spark in that half.
Yeah Leipzig marginally better. Looked at the stats and Haaland completed 1 out of his attempted 4 passes in the first half.
 

saivet

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Good play from Haaland and Reus and decent finish from Sancho.
 

WI_Red

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I like to think I know of most American's playing abroad and even I had no idea who Hoppe was.
 

RashyForPM

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Sancho :drool: Get him in. He probably would have done that in a black shirt when we went over to Leipzig too!
 

do.ob

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Despite whatever issues Dortmund might have had these past few years: their results against Leverkusen, Leipzig and Gladbach have been pretty dominant over the past decade or so.
 

Nero

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PE teacher.
 

Champ

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I wonder where the posters are who questioned me when I said Edin Terzic would be Manager of Dortmund full time before long when he'd just taken over....
They know who they are...
 

hasanejaz88

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People are going to talk about Haaland, but for me Hummels was the man of the match. His defending, and leadership, at the back was key during periods Dortmund were in pressure and allowed them to gradually get back until the game as Leipzeg seemed to tired.

Leipzeg really are suffering from not having a natural goalscorer, they controlled the game in the first half but for all the openings they created, couldn't get any shots on goal because of not having enough people in the box.

Haalands dribbling for the second goal was great, but also rare to see him doing that. He was completely anonymous in the first half, and that pointed to an issue of his that he isn't as involved in goals buildup.
 

Hansi Fick

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Huge win for Dortmund and a strong performance too, a tactically mature and authoritative showing away to their biggest rivals. Good stuff from Terzic, and Haaland is something else, what a fecking player.
 

Blackwidow

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I like to think I know of most American's playing abroad and even I had no idea who Hoppe was.
He was in Barca youth until 2019. Played a full year for Schalke's U 19 scoring only 3 goals. Played this season only as a substitute (16 matches, 339 minutes) in the 4th league - 1 goal. And today 3...
 

Hansi Fick

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He was in Barca youth until 2019. Played a full year for Schalke's U 19 scoring only 3 goals. Played this season only as a substitute (16 matches, 339 minutes) in the 4th league - 1 goal. And today 3...
"Barca youth" in this case seems to mean one of those 'Barca academies' which exist in the US, not La Masia..
 

do.ob

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People are going to talk about Haaland, but for me Hummels was the man of the match. His defending, and leadership, at the back was key during periods Dortmund were in pressure and allowed them to gradually get back until the game as Leipzeg seemed to tired.

Leipzeg really are suffering from not having a natural goalscorer, they controlled the game in the first half but for all the openings they created, couldn't get any shots on goal because of not having enough people in the box.

Haalands dribbling for the second goal was great, but also rare to see him doing that. He was completely anonymous in the first half, and that pointed to an issue of his that he isn't as involved in goals buildup.
The missing goalscorer is the most obvious deficit, but I think in general Leipzig lack individual quality at the highest level and it tends to show when teams put up a defense that doesn't crack under their intensity.
 

mazhar13

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"Barca youth" in this case seems to mean one of those 'Barca academies' which exist in the US, not La Masia..
That's right. He was in a Barcelona Residency Academy in Arizona. They tend to get the most talented Americans into those academies, so Hoppe's definitely one to keep an eye out on.
 

Hansi Fick

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Younes with an early goal, Eintracht 1-0 up vs Bayer.
 

Hansi Fick

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Diaby scores the 3-1 after a nice Amiri run for the assist. Leverkusen have turned it around and it's surely over.
 

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Bayern forced into penalties right now after a 2-2 draw after 120 minutes against second division club Holstein Kiel:eek:
 

B. Munich

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Bayern surely didn't play their best game, but Kiel didn't have a shot on target the complete second half bar the header in 94 minute.

Neuer didn't save a ball the whole game including the penalty shootout.

Strange game but complements to Kiel who played their heart out. I'm not really bothered about the DFB Pokal. At least a few games less.
 

Sean_RedDevil

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They have won so much in the last years (Therefore they can't have a 100% motivation for a DFB-Pokal match in Round 2 for a club from the 2.Bundesliga) and their performances in the last couple of months were average (Lewandowski's goals have concealed their problems in the most matches) therefore such a result shouldn't be a massive shock.

Good for the german football that there is a competition for a longer period without Bayern Munich.
 
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GhastlyHun

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I didn't watch the game because we moved to a new flat yesterday and i was knackered, but i had a feeling we were in for an upset.
 

Acrobat7

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Will be an interesting summer at Bayern. They desperately need 2 CBs (if they keep on playing Hernandez and Pavard as FBs) and a RB.
 

Hansi Fick

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I think I can speak for all Bayern fans here when I say that

1- from what one can hear it was a strange game and unlucky, there are no small teams anymore and also the Pokal has its own laws

2- football is a game where a small opponent who play their hearts out can get the better of a far superior opponent in an one-off game, nothing unusual about that

3- we are not really bothered about going out of the cup, we don't care, less games for us and a great chance for one of our desperate competitors to have a trophy

4- our players are similarly unmotivated, who can blame them, and feeling generous; they're the best team in the world and have won it all, you can't always expect them to be at their best

5- isn't that what everyone wants anyway, Bayern not winning everything in Germany? So there you go, you are welcome, you can shut up now and a thank you is in order

6- we had a feeling this was going to happen, it was to be expected, heck maybe even for the best

7- as it so happens we didn't even see the game, we had something else to do; so as a result it's not actually as real as something that everyone would have seen, and accordingly less relevant

So to summarize, nothing to see here.

And as a bonus we can re-use this post and modify it accordingly, after we've messed up against Freiburg, Augsburg, Lazio, and Auckland/Casablance/Doha or whatever tough opponent it is we'll be losing against in the CWC semis.
 
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do.ob

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While it's obviously a part of the truth, just reducing Kiel to a minnow that got Bayern at the right moment, fought well and got lucky is doing them a disservice, as they are a role model for smaller clubs rising through the ranks with progressive football. In their case from the 4th division to a Bundesliga promotion playoff in six years and perhaps more to follow this season. Similar principles applied against Bayern, they played some proper football and for example had more possession than Gladbach or Leipzig did against Bayern.

 

Pep's Suit

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Bayern simply didn't improve their team. From Thiago to Roca, from Perisic and Coutinho to Costa and Sane. And that's while their defenders look comically bad.
 

Zehner

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While it's obviously a part of the truth, just reducing Kiel to a minnow that got Bayern at the right moment, fought well and got lucky is doing them a disservice, as they are a role model for smaller clubs rising through the ranks with progressive football. In their case from the 4th division to a Bundesliga promotion playoff in six years and perhaps more to follow this season. Similar principles applied against Bayern, they played some proper football and for example had more possession than Gladbach or Leipzig did against Bayern.

Thanks for sharing. I didn't watch the game, only tuned in for the penalties (wasn't disappointed ;)) but this was very impressive, especially considering the gap in in player quality between both sides. I didn't see anything of Kiel or Ole Werner before. What's the opinion on him? Going by this he could be a great coach for a club like Hoffenheim or even Gladbach or us, depending on the future of Bosz and Rose. Only 32, too.

Bayern simply didn't improve their team. From Thiago to Roca, from Perisic and Coutinho to Costa and Sane. And that's while their defenders look comically bad.
People completely underestimate how important Thiago was for that Bayern team. His departure was a huge loss, probably the most severe they could've experienced Lewandowski aside. At least in tight games, Thiago was arguably their most valuable player. However, on paper Costa and Sané don't look much worse than Coutinho and Perisic, probably even better. Most people thought they improved their attack a few months ago.

Thing is, we currently see there was a reason Guardiola wasn't playing Sané as much as he wished. He's got a reputation of being a bit arrogant and not the easiest player to coach. Still looks a bit lost in possession, makes many mistakes etc., which is surprising considering he played multiple years under arguably the most successful coach of possession based football.
 

do.ob

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Thanks for sharing. I didn't watch the game, only tuned in for the penalties (wasn't disappointed ;)) but this was very impressive, especially considering the gap in in player quality between both sides. I didn't see anything of Kiel or Ole Werner before. What's the opinion on him? Going by this he could be a great coach for a club like Hoffenheim or even Gladbach or us, depending on the future of Bosz and Rose. Only 32, too.
I don't watch Kiel that closely, so I can't tell you much about Werner. But it's easy to see how they are trying to get a competitive edge. The guy who almost got them promoted twice in a row to Bundesliga was Markus Anfang, they got him from Leverkusen's youth setup. After he got poached by Cologne, they signed Tim Walter from Bayern II. That guy had some absolutely radical build up ideas:

and after he got poached by Stuttgart they promoted Werner from their own youth setup. Judging by the footage from the Bayern game he seems to have some strong principles about football as well.
 

Kasper

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I think I can speak for all Bayern fans here when I say that

1- from what one can hear it was a strange game and unlucky, there are no small teams anymore and also the Pokal has its own laws

2- football is a game where a small opponent who play their hearts out can get the better of a far superior opponent in an one-off game, nothing unusual about that

3- we are not really bothered about going out of the cup, we don't care, less games for us and a great chance for one of our desperate competitors to have a trophy

4- our players are similarly unmotivated, who can blame them, and feeling generous; they're the best team in the world and have won it all, you can't always expect them to be at their best

5- isn't that what everyone wants anyway, Bayern not winning everything in Germany? So there you go, you are welcome, you can shut up now and a thank you is in order

6- we had a feeling this was going to happen, it was to be expected, heck maybe even for the best

7- as it so happens we didn't even see the game, we had something else to do; so as a result it's not actually as real as something that everyone would have seen, and accordingly less relevant

So to summarize, nothing to see here.


And as a bonus we can re-use this post and modify it accordingly, after we've messed up against Freiburg, Augsburg, Lazio, and Auckland/Casablance/Doha or whatever tough opponent it is we'll be losing against in the CWC semis.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Great thing to finally have one user unifying the voices of way to many Bayern fans on this forum. Can we keep this one and ban all the others? He seems to have all the relevant traits of your usual Bayern fan so its a fair representation.
 

Hansi Fick

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Great thing to finally have one user unifying the voices of way to many Bayern fans on this forum. Can we keep this one and ban all the others? He seems to have all the relevant traits of your usual Bayern fan so its a fair representation.
"This one"? "He seems.."? Don't you know it is rude and dismissive to talk in the third person about someone present?
I'm right here you know, you quoted me, you can address me directly.
Or is that incompatible with your preferred position of sitting on the fence and just making blasé comments, without a dog in the fight since you're supporting, in equal parts as signalled by the slash, Hansa Rostock and Bradford City? Do all those games involving relevant clubs leave you cold then?
Come on now, be honest, in truth your passion belongs to someone embarrassing. I'm going to say.. VfB Stuttgart? Liverpool F.C.?

While it's obviously a part of the truth, just reducing Kiel to a minnow that got Bayern at the right moment, fought well and got lucky is doing them a disservice, as they are a role model for smaller clubs rising through the ranks with progressive football. In their case from the 4th division to a Bundesliga promotion playoff in six years and perhaps more to follow this season. Similar principles applied against Bayern, they played some proper football and for example had more possession than Gladbach or Leipzig did against Bayern.
Didn't see the game (really!), but my trusted Bayern circle says Kiel were ultimately the better team, played arguably better football, and deserved to go through not just in service of a romantic underdog narrative, but straightforwardly as a result of being the side with a higher quality of performance. We are, at the moment, in a proper crisis.
And yes, Tim Walter was hired as Bayern youth coach when Pep and Sammer were there, surely in order to implement a philosophy congruous with the first team, and he was unapologetic about using radically positive and possession-based tactics at Kiel.

Generally, it is of course a topic of frequent debate and also one of lingering convictions, why not more lower table or lower division teams conclude that a more positive approach is beneficial.
Obviously, any team with any strategy must get the basics right to be successful - work rate, team spirit, application, clean execution, balance and so on -, and any good coach no matter what strategic persuasion he adheres to must be able to instill and coach these.
But I do wonder whether the clichéd association of smaller clubs/lower division/battling relegation, etc, with a 'defence comes first' mindset isn't maybe a remnant of an era when a victory was only 2 points. Because since the 3 point rule, the point advantage of a win over a draw surely should fundamentally have shifted the balance of the deliberation "play for a draw, speculate on a win" vs "play for a win, risk a loss" towards the latter?
For teams aiming to win a league, that's evidently true by now (which is why Mourinho doesn't win leagues anymore), but I also remember for example Paco Jemez talking about that in an interview, counterintuitively (considering the above mentioned clichés and lingering convictions) arguing that in the fight against relegation, wins are so important that it's worth it to risk more losses. He did get Rayo relegated though, maybe even twice?, so there is that.

Ironically, I was witness to an instance for the counterargument, I saw Walter's Kiel lose to a cynical Union performance a couple of years ago at the Alte Försterei; they clearly dominated the game, controlled possession over the largest part, being arguably the better team, while Urs Fischer's Union sat back and did little but be compact and defend solidly - only to noticeable turn it on in the very last couple of minutes of each half:
They shifted gears around minute 43 and suddenly they had the biggest chance of the game so far. Second half is the same picture, Kiel dominating without being too dangerous, it was 0:0 until around the 88th minute before Union shifted gears again to snatch the game late on. It was impressive how clear and deliberate this change of pace in Union's game for the last minutes was, and how Kiel couldn't then deal with this momentum change even for the short remaining time.
But regardless of tactics, it might have been that in that season, Kiel's irresistible euphoria and self-fulfilling confidence had been diminished after missing promotion. (For some reason I remembered Walter already being Kiel coach in their play-off-reaching season but I mixed that up)
 
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romufc

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Bayern leaking goals doesn't bode well for them in the CL. Its weird to see so many top clubs suffering defensively.

Look around Europe, apart from VVD, there isnt a top level CB playing for these clubs.

Varane looks dodgie this season, Barca are transitioning, Juve dont have a regular RB.

If things continue, I cannot see Upamecano going anywhere other than Bayern considering they'll lose Alaba, Boateng and don't really have a top CB otherwise.
 

Cheimoon

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Didn't see the game (really!), but my trusted Bayern circle says Kiel were ultimately the better team, played arguably better football, and deserved to go through not just in service of a romantic underdog narrative, but straightforwardly as a result of being the side with a higher quality of performance. We are, at the moment, in a proper crisis.
And yes, Tim Walter was hired as Bayern youth coach when Pep and Sammer were there, surely in order to implement a philosophy congruous with the first team, and he was unapologetic about using radically positive and possession-based tactics at Kiel.

Generally, it is of course a topic of frequent debate and also one of lingering convictions, why not more lower table or lower division teams conclude that a more positive approach is beneficial.
Obviously, any team with any strategy must get the basics right to be successful - work rate, team spirit, application, clean execution, balance and so on -, and any good coach no matter what strategic persuasion he adheres to must be able to instill and coach these.
But I do wonder whether the clichéd association of smaller clubs/lower division/battling relegation, etc, with a 'defence comes first' mindset isn't maybe a remnant of an era when a victory was only 2 points. Because since the 3 point rule, the point advantage of a win over a draw surely should fundamentally have shifted the balance of the deliberation "play for a draw, speculate on a win" vs "play for a win, risk a loss" towards the latter?
For teams aiming to win a league, that's evidently true by now (which is why Mourinho doesn't win leagues anymore), but I also remember for example Paco Jemez talking about that in an interview, counterintuitively (considering the above mentioned clichés and lingering convictions) arguing that in the fight against relegation, wins are so important that it's worth it to risk more losses. He did get Rayo relegated though, maybe even twice?, so there is that.

Ironically, I was witness to an instance for the counterargument, I saw Walter's Kiel lose to a cynical Union performance a couple of years ago at the Alte Försterei; they clearly dominated the game, controlled possession over the largest part, being arguably the better team, while Urs Fischer's Union sat back and did little but be compact and defend solidly - only to noticeable turn it on in the very last couple of minutes of each half:
They shifted gears around minute 43 and suddenly they had the biggest chance of the game so far. Second half is the same picture, Kiel dominating without being too dangerous, it was 0:0 until around the 88th minute before Union shifted gears again to snatch the game late on. It was impressive how clear and deliberate this change of pace in Union's game for the last minutes was, and how Kiel couldn't then deal with this momentum change even for the short remaining time.
But regardless of tactics, it might have been that in that season, Kiel's irresistible euphoria and self-fulfilling confidence had been diminished after missing promotion. (For some reason I remembered Walter already being Kiel coach in their play-off-reaching season but I mixed that up)
The same discussion is being had in the EPL about Bielsa's Leeds. Lots of people are arguing he's stupid for setting up the way he does, because it's too open defensively. But the reality right now is that they're looking pretty certain to stay up despite having one of the worst squads in the league.

I don't know about the Union Berlin game you describe, but in the end, quality also matters. A team like Man United is always likely to crush Leeds, because their attack is just too strong. But that's not what Leeds have to care about. If they can get those 3 points on board often enough against lower-level opposition, then occasionally getting murdered by top teams is totally fine as their survival in the league is guaranteed. This would change, of course, if they'd start upgrading their squad over the seasons and want to be in the conversation for European spots. I don't know if that dynamic was relevant for the Union Berlin game though.