German Football 20/21

The Corinthian

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This has been discussed at length across various threads, and the Nagelsmann one in particular. It's really unhelpful to keep getting these one-liners from different posters (you're far from the only one). It adds absolutely nothing - it didn't the first time and even less so now that it's old news.
Fair enough, but this is the German football thread so thought it was a catch all for German football. As I log on fairly irregularly I often miss out on the discussion.
 

Blackwidow

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I'm all for taking decisive action when you realize something isn't going to work out, but to sack a coach after three bad matches is a gutsy move. It could very well have been merited (I haven't paid that close attention), but that's also the kicker of a chaotic club like Hamburg, they have sacked so many coaches so soon that when it's actually necessary they hesitate, because they are afraid of repeating past mistakes and how it looks to sack yet another coach.


Big Hertha on the ropes against Mainz currently. Luckily they have a Schalke game in hand.
But - usually when you win against Bayern the next match will be a loss...
 

stefan92

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I'm all for taking decisive action when you realize something isn't going to work out, but to sack a coach after three bad matches is a gutsy move. It could very well have been merited (I haven't paid that close attention), but that's also the kicker of a chaotic club like Hamburg, they have sacked so many coaches so soon that when it's actually necessary they hesitate, because they are afraid of repeating past mistakes and how it looks to sack yet another coach.
They were struggling for at least ten games, did not show any improvement but gradually started to become a bit chaotic on and off the field. It can always happen that a team has a bad run for a few games, but you need to see that the coach has ideas how to come out of this bad run and to improve - but they did not, Thioune made more and more questionable decisions and only increased the insecurity of the players. Those three matches without a win should have been enough to come to the final conclusion, that this does not work. They dragged this out so long, that they now need Kiel to feck up badly - a bit earlier they would have had enough time to really make it a challenge for Kiel. In the end it might still be working out for them, as Kiel has a very tough schedule, but the risk has become bigger than it would have been
 

do.ob

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They were struggling for at least ten games, did not show any improvement but gradually started to become a bit chaotic on and off the field. It can always happen that a team has a bad run for a few games, but you need to see that the coach has ideas how to come out of this bad run and to improve - but they did not, Thioune made more and more questionable decisions and only increased the insecurity of the players. Those three matches without a win should have been enough to come to the final conclusion, that this does not work. They dragged this out so long, that they now need Kiel to feck up badly - a bit earlier they would have had enough time to really make it a challenge for Kiel. In the end it might still be working out for them, as Kiel has a very tough schedule, but the risk has become bigger than it would have been
I'm with you in theory, but because of their past it's so, so very hard for someone at Hamburg to make that call.
 

uamini

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Big Hertha on the ropes against Mainz currently. Luckily they have a Schalke game in hand.
12. Mainz 35 pts
13. Augsburg 33 pts
14. Bremen 30 pts
15. Bielefeld 30 pts
16. Köln 29 pts
17. Hertha 27 pts (two games in hand)

Looks like Mainz is through since a lot of the other teams still have to play each other. Pretty impressive after their disastrous start...
The rest really seems to be too close to call. Schake could actually be a factor since they still play Köln and Hertha.
 

hellhunter

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We all love to joke about Hamburg, but to be fair I don't think it was such a strange decision. The team choked really badly. Five consecutive games without a win, against mediocre opponents! I haven't watched them enough to argue whether Thioune's football deserved another season, but in general that merits looking for another coach. And if you already know your current coach will not survive the summer and things are looking pretty hopeless in the short term, then you might as well roll the dice with Hrubesch. They have got nothing left to lose anyway.
I will have you know not all of those were mediocre :wenger:
 

stefan92

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I'm with you in theory, but because of their past it's so, so very hard for someone at Hamburg to make that call.
Whatever they do, they just can't get it right, and that is going on for a decade now...
 

Acrobat7

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Fair enough, but this is the German football thread so thought it was a catch all for German football. As I log on fairly irregularly I often miss out on the discussion.
It was news a week or two ago so why not scroll back some to read up on the discussion? The „it‘s a one team league“ one-liners add absolutely nothing and everyone is tired of them to no end.
 

WeePat

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No idea how I hadn't seen this before, but my god, Muller was so proud of himself here

 

uamini

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So Jens Lehmann just sent a racist whatsapp about Dennis Aogo...and mistakenly sent it to Dennis Aogo himself. Can't make this stuff up. ^^

He's still on the board at Hertha so I'm hoping this is the golden chance to get rid of him. This guy should have been shunned by the football community a long time ago..
 

do.ob

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So Jens Lehmann just sent a racist whatsapp about Dennis Aogo...and mistakenly sent it to Dennis Aogo himself. Can't make this stuff up. ^^

He's still on the board at Hertha so I'm hoping this is the golden chance to get rid of him. This guy should have been shunned by the football community a long time ago..

His apology is quite something as well.

 

Hansi Fick

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So Jens Lehmann just sent a racist whatsapp about Dennis Aogo...and mistakenly sent it to Dennis Aogo himself. Can't make this stuff up. ^^

He's still on the board at Hertha so I'm hoping this is the golden chance to get rid of him. This guy should have been shunned by the football community a long time ago..
Amazing.
Would also be interesting to hear who his original intended adressees were, who he apparently feels comfortable enough to send a racist joke as a matter of fact, and who seem to work at Sky as he's addressing them as 'your'..
As for Lehmann, anyone else feels like something like this was only a matter of time? The guy emitted an unpleasant sense of AfD potential all along, and I think one of his big favourite topics was bringing violence back into pedagogy..

edit: just got reminded of the stuff about Hitzlsperger.. this seems par for the course for Lehmann, really. Rather revolting individual.
 
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Acrobat7

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His apology is quite something as well.

So he is basically doubling down on his first statement („Aogo only has a job because he is black.“) by saying that he brings in viewers („Quote“).
Also: Lehmann being racist is the least shocking discovery i can think of.
 

Zehner

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I can imagine he probably didn't even mean it in a bad way. It was probably a joke to him and he doesn't get what's racist about it.

Surely this has to have consequences. You can't run around making racist jokes in his position for Hertha.
 

do.ob

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Amazing.
Would also be interesting to hear who his original intended adressees were, who he apparently feels comfortable enough to send a racist joke as a matter of fact, and who seem to work at Sky as he's addressing them as 'your'..
As for Lehmann, anyone else feels like something like this was only a matter of time? The guy emitted an unpleasant sense of AfD potential all along, and I think one of his big favourite topics was bringing violence back into pedagogy..

edit: just got reminded of the stuff about Hitzlsperger.. this seems par for the course for Lehmann, really. Rather revolting individual.
Those were pretty much exactly my thoughts and I wouldn't be surprised if cancelling him now would push him over the edge to publicly commit to them. Such an unpleasant combination of (white) privilege meets Dunning Krüger.

So he is basically doubling down on his first statement („Aogo only has a job because he is black.“) by saying that he brings in viewers („Quote“).
Also: Lehmann being racist is the least shocking discovery i can think of.
He's saying that he accidentally used a well known racially charged demeaning compound word, to actually express both words independently of each other. He said that Aogo is someone who got hired to increase the number of black people among the Sky staff, but he really meant that Aogo is someone who brings in the viewer numbers while also being black.

I think the fun part is that even if anyone bought that bullshit he would still have to explain why he randomly brought up his skin colour.



Also what is " In einer privaten Nachricht von meinem Handy" supposed to mean?
"In a private message" -> Aogo should not have outed him, because it was a private message?
"From my mobile phone" -> Did someone else use his phone?
 
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Piratesoup

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Lehmann was and always will be a giant dick and idiot
 

uamini

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Amazing.
Would also be interesting to hear who his original intended adressees were, who he apparently feels comfortable enough to send a racist joke as a matter of fact, and who seem to work at Sky as he's addressing them as 'your'..
As for Lehmann, anyone else feels like something like this was only a matter of time? The guy emitted an unpleasant sense of AfD potential all along, and I think one of his big favourite topics was bringing violence back into pedagogy..

edit: just got reminded of the stuff about Hitzlsperger.. this seems par for the course for Lehmann, really. Rather revolting individual.
I guess you haven't seen his comments on covid. ^^
He's one of those guys who think they are way smarter than they actually are and that's always dangerous.

Hertha recently fired their long-term goalkeeping coach over a racist/homophobic interview in the Hungarian media so you'd expect them to act quickly. However Lehmann is a Windhorst appointee so I'm not sure if Hertha themselves can even fire him.
Windhorst's picks have been pretty underwhelming to say the least. He always wanted to have a big name football legend on the board but both Klinsmann and Lehmann were terrible choices. I mean there are always Matthäus or Basler who could fill in for the job. :|
 

do.ob

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I guess you haven't seen his comments on covid. ^^
He's one of those guys who think they are way smarter than they actually are and that's always dangerous.

Hertha recently fired their long-term goalkeeping coach over a racist/homophobic interview in the Hungarian media so you'd expect them to act quickly. However Lehmann is a Windhorst appointee so I'm not sure if Hertha themselves can even fire him.
Windhorst's picks have been pretty underwhelming to say the least. He always wanted to have a big name football legend on the board but both Klinsmann and Lehmann were terrible choices. I mean there are always Matthäus or Basler who could fill in for the job. :|
I don't think it's such a terrible idea to have someone with a football background as an advisor. Lehmann even studied economics (though I don't know if he got a degree to show for it). If you've never heard him talk he'd be a great pick.
 

uamini

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I don't think it's such a terrible idea to have someone with a football background as an advisor. Lehmann even studied economics (though I don't know if he got a degree to show for it). If you've never heard him talk he'd be a great pick.
Yeah, I agree with that. And I think it shows that Windhorst (correctly) didn't trust Hertha's leadership. He may think differently now that Schmidt/Bobic/Friedrich are running the show.
The thing about Lehmann is that you did hear him talk way before he got the job. So it was pretty clear what kind of person they were hiring.
 

do.ob

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Yeah, I agree with that. And I think it shows that Windhorst (correctly) didn't trust Hertha's leadership. He may think differently now that Schmidt/Bobic/Friedrich are running the show.
The thing about Lehmann is that you did hear him talk way before he got the job. So it was pretty clear what kind of person they were hiring.
Sure, picking Klinsmann was a gamble, picking Lehmann was pure stupidity. But the idea itself wasn't wrong. I think the biggest mistake is picking someone who is already in the spotlight, rather than some clever ex-player, who cares more about the work and the club than the optics. Surely there must be someone among the numerous Hertha legends?
 

uamini

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Sure, picking Klinsmann was a gamble, picking Lehmann was pure stupidity. But the idea itself wasn't wrong. I think the biggest mistake is picking someone who is already in the spotlight, rather than some clever ex-player, who cares more about the work and the club than the optics. Surely there must be someone among the numerous Hertha legends?
"Numerous Hertha legends"? :lol: Don't think there are that many...
But it could be argued that one of the problems the club is facing is that they did in fact hire too many ex-players instead of people who are good at their job. There seem to be a whole lot of people who got important positions just because they were buddies with Preetz. So if anything this club needs more experts, regardless of where they're from.
That's why a lot of people are looking forward to Dufner coming in as the new squad planner. Unlike his predecessor he never played for Hertha but he actually seems to have a good network that'll help him do a better job.
 

do.ob

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"Numerous Hertha legends"? :lol: Don't think there are that many...
But it could be argued that one of the problems the club is facing is that they did in fact hire too many ex-players instead of people who are good at their job. There seem to be a whole lot of people who got important positions just because they were buddies with Preetz. So if anything this club needs more experts, regardless of where they're from.
That's why a lot of people are looking forward to Dufner coming in as the new squad planner. Unlike his predecessor he never played for Hertha but he actually seems to have a good network that'll help him do a better job.

There is of course never a substitute for competence, but having ex players who genuinely love the club in charge of its management is invaluable. Bobic was obviously a net positive for Frankfurt and he looks like a terrific catch for Berlin, but the DoF (or whatever Bobic's role will be called) is supposed to be the one providing strategic long term stability in a business where everyone else thinks in 3 to 5 year contracts, half of them sitting on a release clause. If you put someone who himself thinks in three year intervals on that position chances are it's going to bite you sooner or later.
 

do.ob

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If their 2-0 lead holds up Hertha really made some huge strides this week:



Considering their final game in hand is against Schalke, a draw on Sunday against Bielefeld could already put their minds at ease.

Werder on the other hand look quite doomed, given their abyssmal form and their fixture list:

Werder(L L L L L):
Leverkusen
Augsburg
Gladbach

Bielefeld(D W D W L):
Hertha
Hoffenheim
Stuttgart

Cologne(L L L W W):
Freiburg
Hertha
Schalke
 
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uamini

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If their 2-0 lead holds up Hertha really made some huge strides this week:
Yeah that's a brilliant result, especially since they essentially used their b-team to achieve it. That's when that investor money finally paid off. None of the other teams down there have a similar squad depth.

I would definitely add Augsburg to the list of teams that should be worried though. That Augsburg vs. Werder game might actually prove to be decisive as both teams could very well lose their other two remaining games.
 

do.ob

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Yeah that's a brilliant result, especially since they essentially used their b-team to achieve it. That's when that investor money finally paid off. None of the other teams down there have a similar squad depth.

I would definitely add Augsburg to the list of teams that should be worried though. That Augsburg vs. Werder game might actually prove to be decisive as both teams could very well lose their other two remaining games.
Since there is still Hertha vs Bielefeld and Hertha vs Cologne to be played, having three points on those teams is probably a deceptively good cushion. Though with Bayern still to play they probably have to get something against Stuttgart or Werder.
 

Lagger

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And now Aogo is gone, too: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/f...vergasen-nicht-mehr-sky-experte-17330111.html

The whole PC and cancel culture thing gets a bit silly. Thanks USA, I guess? These guys are ex-footballers. Whoever hired them must have known they're not the smartest eggs in the basket... don't be surprised at them saying stupid things.
 

Acrobat7

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Pagh Wraith

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And now Aogo is gone, too: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/f...vergasen-nicht-mehr-sky-experte-17330111.html

The whole PC and cancel culture thing gets a bit silly. Thanks USA, I guess? These guys are ex-footballers. Whoever hired them must have known they're not the smartest eggs in the basket... don't be surprised at them saying stupid things.
I agree totally but Lehmann isn't really a good example for that. He made a racist comment. Aogo on the other hand... To make a big deal out of it is really over the top. Apologise and move on. As if that was more than a (very) stupid phrase to use and in any way indicative of how he thinks or what kind of person he is (which also sets this case apart from what Lehmann said).
 

1950

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Christ. Imagine suffering through two decades of shit left-backs to lose the first potentially half-decent one to another NT.
 

do.ob

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Germany has been lacking a proper LB forever as well, but I don't think DFB should go around poaching players from other countries.
 

hasanejaz88

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Germany has been lacking a proper LB forever as well, but I don't think DFB should go around poaching players from other countries.
I don't know why people underrate Halstenberg. I think he's a really good balanced LB who is having to play at CB for Leipzig because of the formation changes by Nagelsmann.

How is this Sosa guy? Don't follow Stuttgart alot so haven't seen him.
 

do.ob

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I don't know why people underrate Halstenberg. I think he's a really good balanced LB who is having to play at CB for Leipzig because of the formation changes by Nagelsmann.

How is this Sosa guy? Don't follow Stuttgart alot so haven't seen him.
Halstenberg just doesn't seem to have a significant attacking impact.

Sosa plays nasty crosses and has terrific attacking stats. But I don't watch Stuttgart often enough to say whether he's good enough defensively.


Augsburg a bit lucky there not to concede a penalty. I've seen plenty of times that playing the ball doesn't help you if your tackle is too rough.