German Football 21/22 | Hamburg vs St. Pauli, Fri 18:30 | Hoffenheim vs Dortmund, Sat 15:30 |

do.ob

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cheeky Emre Can penalty to come
 

hasanejaz88

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Great comeback from Dortmund, in the end they just threw the kitchen sink and got goals through sheer will than pure quality (given the state of the pitch it was difficult to create passing moves throughout the match).

That being said, these type of performances are not sustainable for Dortmund. There need to be some major changes on the summer to their squad.
 

do.ob

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Bellingham really likes to get into fights, doesn't he? :lol:
He's the league's most fouled player as far as I know, but he's also very well versed in shithousery himself, going down easy, complaining to the ref, riling up fans, etc.
 

Red the Bear

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That only matters to people who follow the league as a whole though; each individual clubs and its fan won't give a rat's ass about the league's overall diversity of play, they just want their team to do well and be fun to watch.

Besides that, I think football culture factors into this as well. In the Netherlands, for example, defensive football is strongly frowned upon. The only way a coach can get away with it at any level, is if they're successful. (I.e., punching above your weight; not every team is expected to win trophies, of course.) If you're playing defensive and not achieving more (or worse, achieve less) than what any coach would, fan and media pressure will rise very quickly and you won't last long. Even Van Gaal in 2014 in Brazil received heavy criticism throughout the tournament because of his play style, even though the Netherlands reached the semis.

In England, however, I get the impression it's almost the other way around. Defensive security is highly valued and the idea that football must be entertainment isn't as strong; and so as far as I can tell, there is more criticism of the likes of Leeds for playing too openly (even though they had a super safe finish last year for a newly promoted team) than of the likes of Burnley for playing boringly (while generally camping in the bottom half of the table).

My impression is that Germany is more with the Netherlands in this, although of course the details vary.
I think the foremost contributing factor to a league's popularity is success and big name players, case in point serie a and laliga during their hay days were chock full of teams with turgid play styles yet it didn't deter people from following them , entertaining styles also help but I doubt its the major incentive that its touted to be .

Completely agree with your point about football culture , though if I'm not mistaken some of the Dutch teams during the 80s like psv were rather practical to say the least though perhaps my memory is failing me.
 

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I think the foremost contributing factor to a league's popularity is success and big name players, case in point serie a and laliga during their hay days were chock full of teams with turgid play styles yet it didn't deter people from following them , entertaining styles also help but I doubt its the major incentive that its touted to be .
Yeah, various things go into the popularity of leagues, also simply the accessibility of match coverage. Either way, I don't think any coach or club considers this when deciding how their team will play - although they will want their team to be interesting, of course.
Completely agree with your point about football culture , though if I'm not mistaken some of the Dutch teams during the 80s like psv were rather practical to say the least though perhaps my memory is failing me.
Yeah, it's not a full-on mantra: thou shalt play an attacking 4-3-3 (except at Ajax!). Feyenoord is also generally not known for its pretty football; their image is all about being hard-working. But it's generally not defensive-first, counterattacking football, and that gets you criticism even when you win.
 

Red the Bear

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Yeah, various things go into the popularity of leagues, also simply the accessibility of match coverage. Either way, I don't think any coach or club considers this when deciding how their team will play - although they will want their team to be interesting, of course.
Yeah I imagine the priority for every single coach even idealistic zealots such as bielsa is to simply get results or just stay up, as all the media adulation in the world won't guarantee on the pitch success .
Yeah, it's not a full-on mantra: thou shalt play an attacking 4-3-3 (except at Ajax!). Feyenoord is also generally not known for its pretty football; their image is all about being hard-working. But it's generally not defensive-first, counterattacking football, and that gets you criticism even when you win.
not exactly a popular sentiment but I really do enjoy organizedand rough and tough negative football if executed well , watching Jose's inter was a joy(more so than that barca side) and I really do feel these sort of teams do need to exist especially seeing how they out punch their weight and create compelling underdog stories.

also I may be completely off here as I don't watch Dutch football regularly anymore , but I feel its less tactically diverse than it used to be during its hay day in the 80s and early 90s when I found enjoyment watching their organized play and the mercurial youth that they put out (romario Ronaldo etc) ,today it seems that most teams are just playing a much more streamlined version of progressive football which I find suffocating. Though I might be absolutely in the wrong here so would love to be corrected.
 

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not exactly a popular sentiment but I really do enjoy organizedand rough and tough negative football if executed well , watching Jose's inter was a joy(more so than that barca side) and I really do feel these sort of teams do need to exist especially seeing how they out punch their weight and create compelling underdog stories.
I get your point, but it simply doesn't really work to punch above your weight when you just try to be negative. You might shithouse your way to some wins, but you can't consistently grind out wins against nominally stronger teams that way. Most surprise success stories in the last years in the Bundesliga were teams that just clicked in the way they played.

The one exception already mentioned is Union Berlin, but I wouldn't really say they are punching above their weight - they have a pretty strong defensive setup, but they have top class attackers (especially Kruse and Awoniyi) who can decide a game on their own and could still or in the future play for true top teams.
 

Red the Bear

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I get your point, but it simply doesn't really work to punch above your weight when you just try to be negative. You might shithouse your way to some wins, but you can't consistently grind out wins against nominally stronger teams that way. Most surprise success stories in the last years in the Bundesliga were teams that just clicked in the way they played.

The one exception already mentioned is Union Berlin, but I wouldn't really say they are punching above their weight - they have a pretty strong defensive setup, but they have top class attackers (especially Kruse and Awoniyi) who can decide a game on their own and could still or in the future play for true top teams.
I might be antiquated in my views and this doesn't necessarily reflect the current state of affairs especially in bundes but at least in Europe the large majority of the underdog teams that went on to have great success were those exact negative types( stue bucuresti , red star , porto , psv , odm and Monaco and etc ).

Credits to dourtmod as they were pretty adventurous both times they got there but the point stands . In the end of the day its much more feasible to drill defensive awareness and commitment into a low quality and less talented group of players through sheer will and hard work ethic compared to the more attacking minded styles that require naturally gifted players to execute, that was my impression playing football and I think it also applies to the higher levels.
 

stefan92

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I might be antiquated in my views and this doesn't necessarily reflect the current state of affairs especially in bundes but at least in Europe the large majority of the underdog teams that went on to have great success were those exact negative types( stue bucuresti , red star , porto , psv , odm and Monaco and etc ).

Credits to dourtmod as they were pretty adventurous both times they got there but the point stands . In the end of the day its much more feasible to drill defensive awareness and commitment into a low quality and less talented group of players through sheer will and hard work ethic compared to the more attacking minded styles that require naturally gifted players to execute, that was my impression playing football and I think it also applies to the higher levels.
I think this comes down to the difference between cup and league games. When you just don't lose, you can go through in a cup tournament, but when you are hard to beat, but don't really have the means to consistently score goals, you won't win many games and are going nowhere in a league.
 

Red the Bear

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I think this comes down to the difference between cup and league games. When you just don't lose, you can go through in a cup tournament, but when you are hard to beat, but don't really have the means to consistently score goals, you won't win many games and are going nowhere in a league.
Good point unfortunately Villarreal proved it last year at our expense.
 

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not exactly a popular sentiment but I really do enjoy organizedand rough and tough negative football if executed well , watching Jose's inter was a joy(more so than that barca side) and I really do feel these sort of teams do need to exist especially seeing how they out punch their weight and create compelling underdog stories.
I've responded to your final paragraph in the Eredivisie thread, but I just wanted to add that I see nothing wrong conceptually with safety-first football. I don't personally enjoy it and it won't win much anymore (Mourinho's tactics don't work anymore with how defences are organized now); but I can see how it's tactically interesting and why it might seem attractive to underdog teams. (Although as it's 3 points for a win and just 1 for a draw, taking a risk for the win seems likely to me to be more rewarding long term.)
 

kaiser1

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It worked wonders for them for many years continuously punching above their weight and staying in the prem for quitesome time .
The same way it used to work for Stoke, Bolton for some seasons
Every season a variant of Burnley goes into relegation whether it's Stoke, Allardyce West Brom or Sheffield
 

Red the Bear

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The same way it used to work for Stoke, Bolton for some seasons
Every season a variant of Burnley goes into relegation whether it's Stoke, Allardyce West Brom or Sheffield
Don't forget they still do outperform the expectations. look at Leeds , they should comfortably be mid table yet are almost relegation level. The argument goes the other way as well.
 

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Don't forget they still do outperform the expectations. look at Leeds , they should comfortably be mid table yet are almost relegation level. The argument goes the other way as well.
Why should Leeds be comfortably midtable?
They got promoted last season with West Brom and Fulham, while the others relegated, Leeds finished midtable
 

Red the Bear

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Why should Leeds be comfortably midtable?
They got promoted last season with West Brom and Fulham, while the others relegated, Leeds finished midtable
They're squad is one of the more expensive ones if I'm not mistaken.
Edit: I was a bit wrong on this one , transfer market lists them at 13th but they are still underperforming , also Burnley is listed in the bottom.
 

Hansi Fick

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Embarrassing pitch in the Olympiastadion.

Haven't checked the schedule but it can only mean Bayern are coming soon and they're waiting to change it until then
 

uamini

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Embarrassing pitch in the Olympiastadion.

Haven't checked the schedule but it can only mean Bayern are coming soon and they're waiting to change it until then
Well you'll be pleased to know that the pitch will get changed this week, just in time for Bayern's visit in 2 weeks. ^^

Of course Hertha and Union will battle there 3 days before that match so the pitch might end up looking the same.
 

Hansi Fick

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Well you'll be pleased to know that the pitch will get changed this week, just in time for Bayern's visit in 2 weeks. ^^

Of course Hertha and Union will battle there 3 days before that match so the pitch might end up looking the same.
On the one hand I'm pleased to hear that, on the other hand I'm not pleased that reality didn't match my conspiracy narrative
 

B. Munich

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Gladbach seems to only exist to annoy Bayern. Otherwise they are totally useless.
 

stefan92

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Yes, the team with the second most Bundesliga titles is basically useless
Well, that is history. They really did not do much impressive stuff in the last year except annoying Bayern.

Meanwhile Köln's 3:1 win in Berlin really will ignite dreams of international football there - moving up to 6th place, now have won 3 games in a row, next game at home against Bayern should be interesting. They came close to getting a result in Munich (3-2 due to a late Bayern goal), are in good form and Bayern are struggling. They'll go for it and will set up to win.
 

stefan92

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Wolfsburg now 8 losses in a row (2 CL, 6 Bundesliga). Horrible decision to sign Kohfeldt as their new manager their. Van Bommel was bad, that's true and he rightfully had to go, but this is even worse.

Not that I complain, I love to see that :lol:
 

Hansi Fick

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Wolfsburg now 8 losses in a row (2 CL, 6 Bundesliga). Horrible decision to sign Kohfeldt as their new manager their. Van Bommel was bad, that's true and he rightfully had to go, but this is even worse.

Not that I complain, I love to see that :lol:
Really? How's that? How bad exactly was he, can we say, after he was given a whopping two months to work? How much do we know about it?
Why does everyone swallow the VfL club line that he "had" to be fired, after the 8th match day?
Because he was fed up with Schmadtke and Schäfer telling him whom to pick, how to train, and how to play?
 

stefan92

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Really? How's that? How bad exactly was he, can we say, after he was given a whopping two months to work? How much do we know about it?
Why does everyone swallow the VfL club line that he "had" to be fired, after the 8th match day?
Because he was fed up with Schmadtke and Schäfer telling him whom to pick, how to train, and how to play?
Not knowing the rules and getting your club disqualified from the cup was an early warning sign.
They lost all the qualities they had under Glasner while they did not show anything new (and they should have, as van Bommel talked a lot about possession etc).

But ultimately I don't care if it was his fault, Schmadtke's, Schäfer's or the tooth fairy's, I'm happy when they struggle.
 

do.ob

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Given Bielefeld's recent uptick in form a lot of clubs are in danger right now. Wolfsburg don't have much longer to find a break. Gladbach would have a pretty grim outlook as well if not for their bonus points in Munich. And Stuttgart can't be too happy either, given that a draw in Fürth basically means two crucial points lost. Meanwhile on the other end everyone up to Leipzig is still in contention for top four, Cologne are suddenly within striking distance of Freiburg and Hoffenheim. Leverkusen's next three fixtures include Gladbach and Dortmund away, given that they are five games without a win now, some annoying narratives could present themselves.



The away table is kind of interesting as well. First we can see that Dortmund's problem almost lie entirely here, we can also see Fürth's spectacular 0-0-9 run, but most surprising is perhaps Leipzig's absolutely atrocious away form.
 

stefan92

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Meanwhile on the other end everyone up to Leipzig is still in contention for top four, Cologne are suddenly within striking distance of Freiburg and Hoffenheim.
Suddenly Hoffenheim are third. That might be the most surprising development.

Interesting weeks upcoming for Dortmund, as they play most teams of the chasing pack in their next games. They could be very safe second in the table after that run, or the pack could draw them down to their brawl for CL qualification. Going into the second half of the season with 9 teams involved in the top 4/CL race is unusual I think?
 

do.ob

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Suddenly Hoffenheim are third. That might be the most surprising development.

Interesting weeks upcoming for Dortmund, as they play most teams of the chasing pack in their next games. They could be very safe second in the table after that run, or the pack could draw them down to their brawl for CL qualification. Going into the second half of the season with 9 teams involved in the top 4/CL race is unusual I think?
Dortmund already have an eight point gap and teams liek Freiburg or Hoffenheim are supposed to be significantly weaker to begin with. It would probably take a pretty big meltdown for top four to be in jeopardy this season and while there are of course some issues I don't really see reason to believe in a big crisis.

https://www.kicker.de/froehlich-referee-zwayer-im-moment-nicht-aktiv-885466/artikel

Some interesting quotes from referee boss Fröhlich on the Zwayer issue.

-Zwayer has not officiated a Bundesliga match since Dortmund:Bayern and he took a leave of absence after officiating the last EL match of the year.
-He said the claim that Zwayer took money was one word against another's.
-However "at some point you have to clear up this story around the Robert Hoyzer affair".
-"Personally i would welcome it very much if if you really know what happened back then. This accusation whether money was or wasn't taken is in the room."
-While he says that he has no reason to distrust Zwayer (in dubio pro reo) "it would be impossible for me to officiate a game with such a burden."

I don't think he can say something like that if Zwayer has the option to just return out of the blue. A bit sad that it took over 15 years and an 18 year old lad from England to get a statement like that.
 
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Hansi Fick

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Amazing stuff. The kid has managed to retire the corrupt, incompetent feck.

We should build Bellingham a statue, put it right next to this grotesque football sculpture in front of the DFB main building.

 

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Well, that is history. They really did not do much impressive stuff in the last year except annoying Bayern.
I hate these 'useless' and 'pointless' comments though. Gladbach played European football just last season, so if they're pointless, then I guess Bayern and the non-Bayern Pokal winners have been the only useful German clubs the past decade? Such a condescending point of view. (With which I'm sure you don't agree either as a Hannover guy.)
 

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Amazing stuff. The kid has managed to retire the corrupt, incompetent feck.

We should build Bellingham a statue, put it right next to this grotesque football sculpture in front of the DFB main building.

Sorry, no. Zwayer got murder threats etc. from Dortmund fans via social media and that is what Bellingham with his stupidity started. That kid should have been fined a lot more just to know how to act as a professional today and what that can cause.

That story happened nearly 20 years ago when Zwayer himself was very young and he was just had a minimal role in it and helped to clear it - since than he has a clean sheet. No - he might not always have refereed fair - like every of this referees. A brat like Bellingham for sure does not have the right to judge about that.