German Football 21/22 | Midweek cup madness starting tonight and tomorrow at 18:30

stefan92

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I hate these 'useless' and 'pointless' comments though. Gladbach played European football just last season, so if they're pointless, then I guess Bayern and the non-Bayern Pokal winners have been the only useful German clubs the past decade? Such a condescending point of view. (With which I'm sure you don't agree either as a Hannover guy.)
True, that's why I limited my statement to the last year, since they dropped out of the CL.

In general I think clubs are useful if they are entertaining in a certain way - due to an interesting approach, due to spectacular results or whatever.

So I do have to admit that Hannover in that regard is also useless for the league as such, sadly we are quite irrelevant today.
 

do.ob

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Sorry, no. Zwayer got murder threats etc. from Dortmund fans via social media and that is what Bellingham with his stupidity started. That kid should have been fined a lot more just to know how to act as a professional today and what that can cause.

That story happened nearly 20 years ago when Zwayer himself was very young and he was just had a minimal role in it and helped to clear it - since than he has a clean sheet. No - he might not always have refereed fair - like every of this referees. A brat like Bellingham for sure does not have the right to judge about that.
Allegedly taking money and sitting on the information for six months while Hoyzer was free to manipulate games is not a minimal role and the whole thing was cleared up, because of Manuel "there is no relationship with Zwayer" Gräfe: It was only after he had called the referee boss himself and told Zwayer about it that the latter suddenly decided to talk.
Bellingham's accusations were deeply unprofessional (and death threats are obviously even more over any kind of reasonable line), but because Zwayer's involvement had been swept under the rug entirely at the time, the questions about his integrity were never resolved and still there to be asked, even the manipulation in question happened so long ago. Which is also why DFB couldn't go to town on Bellingham with their ruling. I mean in that Kicker article Zwayer's own boss is singing from the same hymn sheet as Bellingham, just in a more polite way.
 
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Blackwidow

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Allegedly taking money and sitting on the information for six months while Hoyzer was free to manipulate games is not a minimal role and the whole thing was cleared up, because of Manuel Gräfe: It was only after he had called the referee boss himself and told Zwayer about it that the latter suddenly decided to talk.
Bellingham's accusations were deeply unprofessional (and death threats are obviously even more over any kind of reasonable line), but because Zwayer's involvement had been swept under the rug entirely at the time, the questions about his integrity were never resolved and still there to be asked, even if it was so long ago. Which is also why DFB couldn't go to town on Bellingham with their ruling. I mean in that Kicker article Zwayer's own boss is singing from the same hymn sheet as Bellingham, just in a more polite way.
There was a very young referee who wanted to make a career in football - and the senior referee he was administered to was the one that was the bad guy. Think yourself into that situation especially if you might not trust the higher DFB officials who looked the other way before...

I actually do not really care about Zwayer's role in that. No matter what - it happened nearly 20 years ago (but not the "big" thing) when he was young and since then acted flawless. It should not play a role anymore.
 

stefan92

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There was a very young referee who wanted to make a career in football - and the senior referee he was administered to was the one that was the bad guy. Think yourself into that situation especially if you might not trust the higher DFB officials who looked the other way before...

I actually do not really care about Zwayer's role in that. No matter what - it happened nearly 20 years ago (but not the "big" thing) when he was young and since then acted flawless. It should not play a role anymore.
It was never really clear what happened. It should not play a role if he had come clean at the time, but he didn't, the DFB tried to cover his involvement. That's the key why he isn't trusted.

I am sure far less people would have a problem if he had made his role public once the scandal was discovered.
 

do.ob

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It was never really clear what happened. It should not play a role if he had come clean at the time, but he didn't, the DFB tried to cover his involvement. That's the key why he isn't trusted.

I am sure far less people would have a problem if he had made his role public once the scandal was discovered.
Yes. This is the main issue. As Fröhlich himself said in yesterday's interview the important questions about his involvement are still unanswered to this day (and that's actually the nice way of putting it) and without truth there can't be forgiveness. Especially not since the whole system puts enormous trust into its referees.
 

Hansi Fick

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No. It's very simple. He took money as a referee, he can never referee a minute of football again. Period, whether he comes clean or not.
There's loads of other things he can do in his life, where public trust in one's morality is not part of the job requirement, it's not a death sentence. Hoyzer for example has a perfectly nice job at Idealo or Zalando or something like that (morality definitively not needed there), after being DoF at a couple of local 4th division clubs. And he even went to jail, which noone says Zwayer would have had to do.

Of course the problem is not Zwayer as a person, but the DFB handling of the whole thing over decades. Fröhlich can get fecked, he "has questions"? :lol:
Laughable.
 
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Cheimoon

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True, that's why I limited my statement to the last year, since they dropped out of the CL.

In general I think clubs are useful if they are entertaining in a certain way - due to an interesting approach, due to spectacular results or whatever.

So I do have to admit that Hannover in that regard is also useless for the league as such, sadly we are quite irrelevant today.
So you're talking about usefulness to the enjoyment or interests of neutrals, I suppose? Cause I imagine that, as a fan, Hannover is 'useful' to you (and all other Hannover fans).
 

stefan92

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So you're talking about usefulness to the enjoyment or interests of neutrals, I suppose? Cause I imagine that, as a fan, Hannover is 'useful' to you (and all other Hannover fans).
Exactly that. Obviously as a fan I follow my own club, but in the league there are clubs I enjoy watching and those I don't care about. Gladbach mostly moved into the latter category for me, except that they are still Bayern's cryptonite.
 

do.ob

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While taste and enjoyment are of course subjective, I think that's a bit harsh on Gladbach: they try to play good football, they gave progressive coaches like Favre and Rose the chance to really establish themselves, they always find interesting players, they brought Scooter to football and they have one of the most outspoken executives in Eberl.

And they always take one for the team, when it comes to helping Dortmund against Bayern to finally create a proper title race again.
 
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do.ob

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I guess even if they don't end up selling Ginter it wouldn't be too bad squad wise, since they have played a lot with a back three and usually had to let Bensebaini help out there. Friedrich just turned 26, which I guess on one hand is good, because they will get him during his prime years, but on the other hand it reminds me a bit of Dortmund's typical flops: players, who have been late bloomers and sign their first and last big contract, Friedrich has done very well in Berlin, but compared to Gladbach that was a low pressure environment and there are very few clubs in Bundesliga, who make life easier for their CBs than Union.

It also really sucks for Berlin that they have to sell their head of defence when they are two points behind fourth place, and despite what I wrote earlier, I wonder how much of a difference Friedrich is going to make to Gladbach's season if Ginter is not sold. With Corona they probably have to think twice about every cent they spent, so it would be unfortunate if they pay a fee and half a year worth of wages on Friedrich just to finish in no man's land anyway, when they could have gotten him for free in the summer. But then again, maybe Friedrich would have had other offers in the summer or they would have had to pay a bigger signing fee, so what do I know anyway..
 

stefan92

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I guess even if they don't end up selling Ginter it wouldn't be too bad squad wise, since they have played a lot with a back three and usually had to let Bensebaini help out there. Friedrich just turned 26, which I guess on one hand is good, because they will get him during his prime years, but on the other hand it reminds me a bit of Dortmund's typical flops: players, who have been late bloomers and sign their first and last big contract, Friedrich has done very well in Berlin, but compared to Gladbach that was a low pressure environment and there are very few clubs in Bundesliga, who make life easier for their CBs than Union.

It also really sucks for Berlin that they have to sell their head of defence when they are two points behind fourth place, and despite what I wrote earlier, I wonder how much of a difference Friedrich is going to make to Gladbach's season if Ginter is not sold. With Corona they probably have to think twice about every cent they spent, so it would be unfortunate if they pay a fee and half a year worth of wages on Friedrich just to finish in no man's land anyway, when they could have gotten him for free in the summer. But then again, maybe Friedrich would have had other offers in the summer or they would have had to pay a bigger signing fee, so what do I know anyway..
I guess the move makes sense for Berlin as they just signed a new CB a few days ago (Heintz from Freiburg). So for them it keeps the squad balanced to let another CB leave, maybe they already knew Friedrich was going to leave now.

If all this makes sense for Gladbach and Friedrich himself know? You raise valid doubts about that, but I guess as bad as Gladbach defense was lately it can't harm to sign someone who has recent experience how a defense works well.
 

do.ob

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I guess the move makes sense for Berlin as they just signed a new CB a few days ago (Heintz from Freiburg). So for them it keeps the squad balanced to let another CB leave, maybe they already knew Friedrich was going to leave now.

If all this makes sense for Gladbach and Friedrich himself know? You raise valid doubts about that, but I guess as bad as Gladbach defense was lately it can't harm to sign someone who has recent experience how a defense works well.
Freiburg have five (!) CBs on their books who played more minutes than Heintz this season, I'd be surprised if anyone expects this to be anything but a very clear downgrade. So it has to be that they really need the money Gladbach will pay for Friedrich, even if it might hurt their chances of finishing in an CL/EL position. Which is disappointing.
 

do.ob

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Emre Can starting at CB again. Entertainment is all but guaranteed. Freiburg are missing two of their stand out players in Schlotterbeck and Flekken as well.
 

do.ob

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Freiburg just went from 18 GA to 23 GA. Their impressive defensive record defaced.
 

hasanejaz88

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That was one of the most confident performances I've seen from Dortmund this season, they were in complete control for 70 mins of the match. For 20 mins in the second half though they looked fragile again, Halaand's goal was definitely against the run of play and knocked Freiburg out.

All set to lose next week.
 

Hansi Fick

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One assist more for Müller - goal was from Tolisso!
and what a goal it was..

It's strange how there's a general underwhelming feeling about Tolisso yet ..

-conceding as always-

... when he's played he has never been disappointing
 

do.ob

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Such a silly way to lose their goal for Cologne. Not that I blame him for it, but Uth could've just let Modeste take the ball and it would have been all but impossible to miss anyway.
 

Hansi Fick

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Such a silly way to lose their goal for Cologne. Not that I blame him for it, but Uth could've just let Modeste take the ball and it would have been all but impossible to miss anyway.
Looked to me like both were offside?
 

do.ob

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Wasn't that just a foul from Boyata? Strange they didn't take the time to VAR it.

Now that I've seen a few more angles I understand that call even less, but on the other hand Hertha's goal probably shouldn't have been called off either.
 
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uamini

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Wasn't that just a foul from Boyata? Strange they didn't take the time to VAR it.

Now that I've seen a few more angles I understand that call even less, but on the other hand Hertha's goal probably shouldn't have been called off either.
That's not Boyata by the way. ;)

Terrible game as expected....I'm not surprised by Hertha since that starting lineup just lacks any kind of quality but what's Wolfsburg's excuse? They have some good players on the pitch yet they look like a club that could really get into trouble if they don't turn it around soon.
 

do.ob

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That's not Boyata by the way. ;)

Terrible game as expected....I'm not surprised by Hertha since that starting lineup just lacks any kind of quality but what's Wolfsburg's excuse? They have some good players on the pitch yet they look like a club that could really get into trouble if they don't turn it around soon.
oops :nervous:


I think Wolfsburg's excuse goes something like this:
 

BayernFan87

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Nagelsmann happened. He is playing him more centrally than Flick and he is also further away from his ACL tear.
The position is surely part of the reason, but it's even more his confidence, his body language and the way he fights for the ball, that is really impressive to me.
 

do.ob

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Isn't it bad enough that Fuss gets to commentate just about any big match on Sky? Why does he also have to show up to the pre-game panel and why the hell is he collecting miniature mascots for his kid, I'm sure he can afford plenty of toys on his own.
 

do.ob

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Im surprised how much pressure Gladbach create with their rather depleted looking starting lineup.
 

do.ob

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I would not bet on that...

But like most of the times the team that beats Bayern sucks in the next match...
I was actually joking. While they obviously still have the capacity to mess things up for themselves, Leverkusen should be the safest bet for third place - at least in theory, because Hoffenheim strike me even less as a consistent team and Union/Freiburg will always bleed draws with their defensive approaches.

I missed the second half of the match, but just looking at the team sheet you can see that Gladbach are in a very dire state and I thought that they actually did quite well to create a fairly even game, even if a bit low quality from both sides, considering what they had to work with.