Sacking Naggelsmann will go down as one of the biggest feck ups in their history.
Higher up’s heads will roll when Dortmund win the league next week.
Higher up’s heads will roll when Dortmund win the league next week.
German Football 22/23 | 2. Bundesliga returns | Hamburg vs Schalke 20:30 |
- Thread starter do.ob
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I don't think people care about that at the moment, both Schalke getting relegated or keeping the derby is okay. And either will be drowned out if Dortmund win/lose the title now. I think it's more an extra layer of cruelty for Schalke fans.Even better:
Your ex-coach Rose might've just helped you become champions (if you get those 2 wins out of 2) and he might also send your Revierderby rivals into 2. Bundesliga next week on top of that.
Also why give all the credit to Rose? He took three points of Bayern, Tuchel took eight!
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Bayern losing, Dortmund playing the next day against a team at the bottom of the table...its got Dortmund losing 4-0 written all over it.
I'm with you Dortmund isn't an European top team but you aren't playing a top side neither tomorrow or next week. Both have actually nothing to play for anymore.
Bayern usually doesn't bottle these chances but they did this season multiple times. Replacing Nagelsmann with Tuchel was the wrong move. If they should have done it after season but during crunch time.
Don't get me wrong, it'll be an immeasurable disappointment if Dortmund mess up now, but at the same time, if you look at their results in Augsburg, they have struggled there for the past six years, so some trouble tomorrow is actually to be expected. Augsburg aren't actually clear of relegation worries either. On the other hand slipping up against Mainz, at home, would indeed be "bottling".
Actually, if Stuttgart failt to win in Mainz, Augsburg will be safe by the time the game against Dortmund starts (losing a +18 GD advantage to Schalke is pretty much impossible).
I was in favor of sacking Nagelsmann as Bayern looked lightweight under him, but I didn't expect a mental meltdown would follow. The team is so fragile.. any team can have a go at them.
I hoped Tuchel appointment would work out, but the team doesn't seem taken by him.
If Dortmund don't fckit'up again and Bayern lose the title will Tuchel stay for next season or get sacked as well? That will be a proper shitshow.
I hoped Tuchel appointment would work out, but the team doesn't seem taken by him.
If Dortmund don't fckit'up again and Bayern lose the title will Tuchel stay for next season or get sacked as well? That will be a proper shitshow.
Yes. If.
Given that Stuttgart have won exactly one away game this season, it's not that big of an if.
Either way, there aren't really any excuses for Dortmund. Bottling it now would be looked back on a similar level to Leverkusen or Schalke twenty years ago.
I think you need a history lesson. Schalke didn't bottle it in 00/01, Bayern just scored a last minute goal and glorious Leverkusen dropped a 5 point lead in 3 games, while actually being a good enough team to almost win the treble.
Schalke bottled it against a weak team of Stuttgart. They lost 1:0 by playing negative, defensive football.
Leverkusen in Unterhaching was a classic bottle job.
???
Leverkusen 2002 and Schalke 2001 both lost an away game to a team fighting relegation on match day 33, so a very similar situation to the one Dortmund is currently in. Leverkusen 2000 is also comparable, although their big loss came in the last game and the team they were playing were positioned in the middle of the table. Try being a little less arrogant if your memory is this spotty.
Absolute scenes when Dortmund drop points to Augsburg, or worse, to Mainz at home
Schalke dropped points in 16 out 34 games that year and finished the season on 62 points. This is what I meant earlier, people have a completely warped definition, where Schalke were bottlers, because they dropped some points, which they did all season anyway. Bayern themselves barely got their point against 13th placed Hamburg - those were different times.. Or Dortmund would be bottlers if they get 40 points in half a season, after people questioned their ability to even make top four around Christmas.
One of you literally wrote: "On the other hand who of this Dortmund team would get into the current Bayern team? The difference in quality between the Schalke and Dortmund squad is huge, but the difference between Bayern and Dortmund isn't much smaller. ", two months ago. Yet it would be bottling if that team finished level with Bayern.
Leverkusen on the other hand did just collapse spectacularly under pressure, which I'd indeed call bottling.
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If you have the title in your own hands two games before the end while also playing two significantly weaker teams and you still manage to screw it up, it will be perceived by everyone as a massive bottle job, I don't know what else to tell you.
No idea why you're starting with the cope prematurely, but whatever, you do you.
I know people would perceive it that way, but I still think it's intellectually lazy to call any team that doesn't win all their final games bottlers, regardless of the actual context. You'd have to call like a third of the league bottlers.
For me you'd have to be intellectually lazy to compare "any team" to a team that has fate in their hands and can win a trophy. These are professional sportsmen and they dream of winning trophies, in every sport being able to push yourself to the limits and to give 110% when it counts is considered an important trait. Be realistic - in case of Borussia, for some of these players winning the league might be the biggest achievement in their careers, so there's no way to consider it "regardless of the actual context". Again, not crumbling under the pressure is a big part of this and every other sport. If you're an elite sportsman you have to take such chances and there's no excuses.
You think these players haven't given it their all to even make it so far, so they have something more to give that they didn't care to in pervious games this year, where they struggled on the road? You think performing to the standard you've set for yourself all season is crumbling?
How is it in any way sensible to break down reality into "they just wanted it more" or "no excuses". You're just breaking down a process into generic slogans. How does that mind-set even work out if you apply it to more than one-off situations? Teams and their players alternate between being elite sportsmen and bottlers? Like Bayern won it 10 times in a row, but I guess their players are just bottling "pussies" now, who have forgotten to give 110%?
10 is a nice round number, let's leave it at that.
Come on Dortmund!!!
Hey, look on the bright side: You now get the opportunity to watch a 2.5h Doppelpass special with Stefan Effenberg, Matze Knop and Rudi Völler, combining their impressive brainpower to deliver you brutally honest insights into Bayern's problems.
Even better: i get the chance to not watch that.
So you are missing the opportunity to feel like a 200 IQ genius while watching those guys? Your loss...
As a side point you can also play "guess that AfD talking point" with Völler.
Refrees are at each other's throat and it's glorious:
Apparently this all started when some ZDF (public broadcaster) reporter was trying to do an interview with Deniz Aytekin, who had just refereed Bayern's game. For English speakers: the Tweet is leaving out a couple of "shits".
Here we have Patrick Ittrich, also an active referee, saying he 100% understands Aytekin's outburst:
And here's Gräfe himself responding with a little "blog post":
While Gräfe may or may not have a personal motive behind his criticism (being forced to retire due to age, despite being the league's most respected ref at the time), I do think most of his observations seem on point regarding the institutional issues. Because it's an absolute joke that, despite all the money involved, there is no discernible standard of rule interpretation or VAR threshold. We have to look no further than yesterday: a little shirt pulling got a crucial goal annulled for Hertha (it was perfectly okay to do so, but I think there's been plenty of situations like this where VAR stayed out of it), while in Hoffenheim something that was in my opinion a fairly clean tackle was actually VAR'd into a penalty. So you'd think "okay, they will just VAR everything, good to know", but then you see Schalke:Frankfurt and suddenly the refs are quite generous for Frankfurt's equalizer and it's apparently okay again to slide into your opponent without getting the ball.
And it seems like, Gräfe aside, no one actually has any intention of bringing this up, let alone improve the situation. All you get is maybe a "sorry about that, but now we need to talk about the death threats that some kids sent from their mom's basement instead".
Apparently this all started when some ZDF (public broadcaster) reporter was trying to do an interview with Deniz Aytekin, who had just refereed Bayern's game. For English speakers: the Tweet is leaving out a couple of "shits".
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Here we have Patrick Ittrich, also an active referee, saying he 100% understands Aytekin's outburst:
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
And here's Gräfe himself responding with a little "blog post":
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
While Gräfe may or may not have a personal motive behind his criticism (being forced to retire due to age, despite being the league's most respected ref at the time), I do think most of his observations seem on point regarding the institutional issues. Because it's an absolute joke that, despite all the money involved, there is no discernible standard of rule interpretation or VAR threshold. We have to look no further than yesterday: a little shirt pulling got a crucial goal annulled for Hertha (it was perfectly okay to do so, but I think there's been plenty of situations like this where VAR stayed out of it), while in Hoffenheim something that was in my opinion a fairly clean tackle was actually VAR'd into a penalty. So you'd think "okay, they will just VAR everything, good to know", but then you see Schalke:Frankfurt and suddenly the refs are quite generous for Frankfurt's equalizer and it's apparently okay again to slide into your opponent without getting the ball.
And it seems like, Gräfe aside, no one actually has any intention of bringing this up, let alone improve the situation. All you get is maybe a "sorry about that, but now we need to talk about the death threats that some kids sent from their mom's basement instead".
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What AfD talking point did Völler bring up?
I'd say he rather uses the CDU/CSU playbook which is bad enough
While I generally agree that the application of VAR leaves much do desire, that's triviliasing. What Stegeman experienced is much more serious than that and those threats didn't only come from some kid in a basement but grown men. Honestly, it's embarassing that such stuff always happens in football. This sport's fans are the worst and take it as well as themselves far too serious.
And Mainz just took the lead against VFB…if it stays this way Augsburg will be safe before today’s kickoff
If that happens, Dortmund will underestimate Augsburg and lose.
I'm debating with myself whether I want Augsburg to have something to play for tonight or Mainz next week. Just make it a draw please 
What a goal by Endo
I don't know, I made sure not to watch it. I just assumed that someone, who volunteers in interviews that he puts the right amount of milk in his coffee, because he's a proper man and who made himself the party's favourite official with his statement about the WC will find some further common ground if you let him talk for long enough.
And I'm sure that threats/racism online are a problem that demands action, but I don't think the mention of it should immediately end any critical discussion about refereeing in the media.
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GI actually puts Dortmund's chances below 50% today.
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Looks like Augsburg might be playing for something today
And just like that, Stuttgart are leading now...
People read too much into the result of the current game anyway. Either Augsburg will have to fight for survival or they will have a ton of weight lifted off their shoulders. I don't think either way would make a huge difference, unless Dortmund are up by two goals or something.
As an aside: Absolutely no clue how Stuttgart's medical staff let Zagadou back onto the pitch. That is just negligent and unnecessary. He could hardly walk.
Looks like Schalke will have to get something in Leipzig now. Considering Stuttgart and Bochum both get to play at home even that may not be enough in the end. If I was Schwolow I'd arrange for a quiet exit at some truck stop on their way back, just in case it doesn't work out. -0.54 PSxG+/- /90 .. incredible..
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cmon Dortmund
They are making this rather difficult aren't they.
Augsburg down to 10 men.
Justified IMO... He was through, clear denial of goal opportunity.