German Football 22/23 | Leverkusen vs Dortmund, Sat 17:30 | Bobic sacked

do.ob

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No, they aren't unique - same goes for more or less all view counts that are quoted in such contexts which is why your comment doesn't really make sense. And why would people watch the documentation when they already saw the excerpt they are interested in?

I mean, it's funny but you're really clutching at straws here.
Clutching at straws? :lol:

When you're wondering why Leverkusen content didn't gain traction, the obvious answer will always be that public interest in the club is quite low.

And that 2.7m views figure shows that it was by far the most popular video on the club's youtube account, but not so much beyond that. You don't know how many people make up that 2.7m, you don't know where those people came from, e.g. it being a Havertz video with subtitles also tapped into the Chelsea fanbase, which gives it a global reach, but these views are largely irrelevant for the question why German circles didn't pick up a particular anecdote from a 50 minute video, which is another point: it's a long video, as far as I'm aware the view count refers to the number of times the video was opened, not how many of those people actually watched enough of it to get to that anecdote, which is probably quite a different number - considering the attention span of the tictoc generation.
 

stefan92

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Why do you even want to leave it?
Because success is always nice. But iif I had to choose between promotion and repeating 1992(winning the cup while being in the second league) I'd choose the latter.
 

arthurka

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Because success is always nice. But iif I had to choose between promotion and repeating 1992(winning the cup while being in the second league) I'd choose the latter.
As a person who lived in Hannover for a considerable time I must say I always thought the H96 fans deserved to be in the Erste Liga. But I get what you are saying.

The way their management behaves and constantly changes I'm not so sure they actually want to.
You are probably right
 

Zehner

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When you're wondering why Leverkusen content didn't gain traction, the obvious answer will always be that public interest in the club is quite low.
But it did. And that seems to rub you the wrong way. Although it is still funny to see you suddenly turn into an online marketing expert.

I mean, even the idea that the endorsement by 11freunde could explain 2.7m views :lol:
 

do.ob

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But it did. And that seems to rub you the wrong way. Although it is still funny to see you suddenly turn into an online marketing expert.

I mean, even the idea that the endorsement by 11freunde could explain 2.7m views :lol:
I claimed neither of those things.
 

do.ob

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I never said they were responsible for millions of views, frankly I have no idea how big their reach is or this story was for them.Or who else might have shared it. I only gave it as one of several reasons why you can't take that view count at face value regarding attention in Germany.
 

Acrobat7

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If I remember correctly Schalke's ultras have a fan friendship with Skopje, so when they played some Greek club they brought a Macedonian flag (as in offical flag of a recognized country) and the police stormed the "Nordkurve" to remove it.
I think I remember this! It is so stupid.
 

kaiser1

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Sule and Schlotterbeck are expected to start for Germany. Sounds like we might have a very short stay in Qatar.

BmG could have scored 7 already and it's just 55mins
No surprise
 

do.ob

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I just saw this article in my timeline: https://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/bvb/...vb-boss-watzke-mehr-macht-w670218-2000689988/

And to be honest I've been wondering what the heck I've been reading.

For starters it seems insane to me to discuss Flick's position. His team played good football in all three games and he was willing to (indirectly) admit mistakes and make adjustments too - they went out because of a freak result against Japan and some additional misfortune when it came to the group draw and match schedule (Spain being free to throw the last game).
I don't think he can be blamed for Neuer having a terrible tournament. He gave Müller too many chances, but I don't think that cost him the tournament, especially since Germany was still 1-0 up against Japan, when Müller was subbed. Where I am tempted to blame him is Hummels' exclusion, because it was predictable that Schlotterbeck would struggle and that had a direct effect against Japan. But is that something he should be sacked over?
I think the DFB can count themselves lucky that Flick didn't step down, because everyone except for Klopp would be a downgrade.

It seems to me like Bierhoff is a convenient scapegoat, because he has become unpopular in recent years. The main problem is a structural one. No top tier striker since Klose (Gomez if we're being generous) and no top tier full backs on either side since Lahm (maybe Jonas Hector could have been one, if he'd been more ambitious - but considering he was a late bloomer he's hardly someone to credit the youth setup with).

As far as I'm aware Bierhoff didn't have anything to do with the youth setup until 2018 and on one hand the effects of youth reform take quite a few years to make their way to the public surface and on the other we just had the pandemic severely mess with the youth game for two years. It seems to me like he's a very convenient scapegoat at the moment, because he had already gotten unpopular before the tournament.
Now maybe he really is a problem or maybe it would just help to get a fresh set of eyes on the job, but it was also mentioned that he might be demoted to academy oversight... ...when individual quality (from the academy) arguably is the biggest issue, which he'd be demoted over. Insanity.

Watzke's inclusion also seems a bit random. He's a business man and a politican, not a sporting director. I guess it could make sense if they were trying to implement structural reforms and would like his input to represent the perspective of professional clubs, but at this early stage it looks more like a PR move to me.

It would fill me with a lot more confidence if they were looking at some people with actual management experience, or who had prominent roles at some big club's academy. Not that I'd necessarily advocate for any of them directly, but people like: Mislintat, Rangnick, Elgert, etc.. Not Fipsi fecking Lahm.
 

stefan92

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I think the DFB can count themselves lucky that Flick didn't step down, because everyone except for Klopp would be a downgrade.
Generally an excellent post, but I strongly disagree here. I just don't rate Flick as a top tier manager, he had amazing 9 months when he started at Bayern and that was the only time he excelled as a responsible manager, everything else was just mediocre what he did in that role.
 

Zehner

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Generally an excellent post, but I strongly disagree here. I just don't rate Flick as a top tier manager, he had amazing 9 months when he started at Bayern and that was the only time he excelled as a responsible manager, everything else was just mediocre what he did in that role.
Thing is, he took over a very dysfunctional squad at Bayern and gave them an identity that was very different from what Kovac implemented. So you can't even argue that it was a "new manager bounce" or something along those lines. It was very substantial change, not only in mentality but also tactically. So he's kind of proved that he's capable of implementing a distunguishable and highly effective playing style. I wouldn't be too sure of that with, for example, Heynckes.
 

B. Munich

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I just saw this article in my timeline: https://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/bvb/...vb-boss-watzke-mehr-macht-w670218-2000689988/

And to be honest I've been wondering what the heck I've been reading.
Good post and I mostly agree with your points.

Being a Bayern fan I'm definitely also am a fan of Flick. Still I blame him somehow for the setup for the matches against Spain and Costa Rica.

Against Spain the team needed a win! Flick setup for a draw. Only one shot on target in the first half isn't good enough. Bayern under him never played so defensive.
Against Costa Rica everything went perfectly for Germany first. Early goal, and Spain leading Japan. Instead of pushing for the second, third goat the team started to administer the game.
In both games Flick didn't react decisively to wake up the team and remind them to not only control the game but score more goals.
Germany should played with the same urgency they have shown after falling back against Costa Rica. 3 goals in 15 min. I'm sure, if they did, see would have reached the knock out stages. Either on better goal difference instead of Spain or instead of Japan who wouldn't have won the match against Spain, if Spain is aware Germany are leading Costa Rica with 4 or 5 goals.
 

do.ob

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Generally an excellent post, but I strongly disagree here. I just don't rate Flick as a top tier manager, he had amazing 9 months when he started at Bayern and that was the only time he excelled as a responsible manager, everything else was just mediocre what he did in that role.
I guess it's debatable where Flick stands in the (top tier) coaching hierarchy, but even if he's not a true elite coach: do you think Germany could get someone better? They'd probably have to consider guys like Tedesco, Kohfeldt or Hoeneß. Not quite the wasteland that England finds itself in, but still not really inspiring options..

Good post and I mostly agree with your points.

Being a Bayern fan I'm definitely also am a fan of Flick. Still I blame him somehow for the setup for the matches against Spain and Costa Rica.

Against Spain the team needed a win! Flick setup for a draw. Only one shot on target in the first half isn't good enough. Bayern under him never played so defensive.
Against Costa Rica everything went perfectly for Germany first. Early goal, and Spain leading Japan. Instead of pushing for the second, third goat the team started to administer the game.
In both games Flick didn't react decisively to wake up the team and remind them to not only control the game but score more goals.
Germany should played with the same urgency they have shown after falling back against Costa Rica. 3 goals in 15 min. I'm sure, if they did, see would have reached the knock out stages. Either on better goal difference instead of Spain or instead of Japan who wouldn't have won the match against Spain, if Spain is aware Germany are leading Costa Rica with 4 or 5 goals.
I think you're looking at it with too much hindsight:

Spain are maybe the most cohesive national team, you don't just overrun or outplay them, especially not after you've just shit the bed in the previous game. I wouldn't even call his choices that defensive, he used his usualy 4231, except with Gündogan as the nominal #10, which sounds sensible to me against a team as dominant on the ball and as sharp in their gegenrpessing as Spain and I'd say it worked out quite well on the pitch. In addition to that Spain clearly frontloaded a lot of their energy: they pressed relentlessly in the first say 30 minutes and looked dominant as a result, but Flick's side was able to weather that storm and gradually got better and better into the game as Spain tired a bit. And according to whoscored.com shots at half time were 1:2 in Germany's favour, even with Müller botching a very nice counter attack. Even Spain's lead went quite against the momentum of the game at that point. Had Flick gone all in from the start and paid the price for it we'd be calling him a fool, with Japan losing to Costa Rica it was reasonable to take an even game, instead of big risks to gamble for an early lead. And I think in general the game was very high quality from both sides - for an international competition.

I'm also sure that Flick didn't tell his players to take a nap midway through the first half against Costa Rica and I don't think winning by 7 oder 8 goals is something that you can force, it just happens. But having said that it seemed like the team was actually trying to stomp their opponent, however when you see that Costra Rica are still parking everyone inside their own box, when they don't fall apart after you've taken the lead and when, at the same time, Spain have taken the lead in the other game and maybe you're aware that scoring goal/converting chances hasn't been your strong suit, then it's quite a human reaction in my opinion to lose a bit of drive - though of course it shouldn't escalate as it did against CR.
I think it's also worth remembering that after scoring themselves and seeing Japan score against Spain the situation changed comepletely for Costa Rica, suddenly just defending their goal wasn't enough for them, they had to play for a win and offer much more space than in the first half as a result. Germany creating more didn't happen in a vacuum, it wasn't just about mentality.
 

do.ob

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The scape has been goated.
Let's see who follows.
 

Blackwidow

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If there was not Watzke in the DFL right now Bierhoff would be ideal for the position of Donata Hopfen who is told to be sacked this week anyways.
 

do.ob

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https://www.kicker.de/tempomacher-w...-wunschkandidaten-wurde-928525/artikel#twfeed

Kicker's piece on the current situation describes Watzke (Dortmund CEO, first vice president of the DFB and chairman of DFL's supervisory board - quite the collection of posts) as the most powerful man in German football right now, who is supposedly at the steering wheel at the moment. They claim that Fredi Bobic - let's all laugh at Hertha - is his "nomination" and the current favourite to take over Bierhoff's post and that Bobic himself has some interest in moving to Frankfurt. They also claim Watzke got triggered, when some DFB official said that "now" (after CR) the priority was to protect the DFB president.

I can't say how good or bad Bobic would be as a reformer, but at least he'd be someone with actual football management experience and not some "charismatic" ex-pro. I guess he also broke up a lot of old structures at Hertha - maybe @uamini can tell us more on that front. It's long overdue that the DFB posts are filled according to merit and not accolades as players.

"Sportschau" reported Sammer is also a candidate to return in an advisory capacity - depending on who gets the big job of course. I don't think that could hurt either.

If there was not Watzke in the DFL right now Bierhoff would be ideal for the position of Donata Hopfen who is told to be sacked this week anyways.
Are you being sarcastic? What BA experience does Bierhoff have? He's just been sacked for fecking up the second biggest football nation from a basis of unprecedented strength (a zillion semi finals in a row). His trade mark PR offense ("die Mannschaft") turned out to be a total failure. The DFL head needs to be a businessman with a football heart. Not an ex-pro. If the new guy makes good strategic decisions I don't care what his face or name is or how smart he looks on photo-ops. There are other roles that can fullfill those duties.
 
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stefan92

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I can't say how good or bad Bobic would be as a reformer, but at least he'd be someone with actual football management experience and not some "charismatic" ex-pro. I guess he also broke up a lot of old structures at Hertha - maybe @uamini can tell us more on that front.
More importantly he developed Frankfurt from midtable irrelevance into a title winning team. It's too early to judge his work in Berlin I think.
 

uamini

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It's very difficult to rate Bobic...a lot of people in Frankfurt still insist that the reason for their success was their chief scout Ben Manga and not him. I'm pretty sure that has partly to do with them still being annoyed at him leaving but what's definitely true is that his results in Stuttgart were a lot less convincing.
His current performance in Berlin is also not easy to gauge...he obviously inherited a terrible situation, a club with no money, extremely high wages, questionable people in key positions so it's been an uphill battle from the beginning.
He's definitely someone who doesn't shy away from changing things. He replaced a lot of personnel with his own entourage and that's something that's been criticized because some people claim they make a lot of money and aren't always a good fit. He's very pragmatic, immediately sold Cunha, Cordoba and sent out Lukebakio and Piatek on loan even though those players had been responsible for over 60% of Hertha's goals. He hasn't been as succesful at finding cheap gems for Hertha but the transfer market wouldn't be his focus for the DFB.
Overall I'd say he's approached the job at Hertha with the right mindset, quickly realizing that the club needed a massive overhaul and not some short-term fixes.
He's someone who enjoys projects and he usually doesn't plan to stay somewhere for several years. So I'd expect him to take a deep look at everything, start a few reforms and then move on after a few years.
Does he even want the job though? He gave a press conference today and it kinda sounded like he's focused on Hertha but wouldn't say no if the DFB makes the right kind of offer.
 

do.ob

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It's very difficult to rate Bobic...a lot of people in Frankfurt still insist that the reason for their success was their chief scout Ben Manga and not him. I'm pretty sure that has partly to do with them still being annoyed at him leaving but what's definitely true is that his results in Stuttgart were a lot less convincing.
His current performance in Berlin is also not easy to gauge...he obviously inherited a terrible situation, a club with no money, extremely high wages, questionable people in key positions so it's been an uphill battle from the beginning.
He's definitely someone who doesn't shy away from changing things. He replaced a lot of personnel with his own entourage and that's something that's been criticized because some people claim they make a lot of money and aren't always a good fit. He's very pragmatic, immediately sold Cunha, Cordoba and sent out Lukebakio and Piatek on loan even though those players had been responsible for over 60% of Hertha's goals. He hasn't been as succesful at finding cheap gems for Hertha but the transfer market wouldn't be his focus for the DFB.
Overall I'd say he's approached the job at Hertha with the right mindset, quickly realizing that the club needed a massive overhaul and not some short-term fixes.
He's someone who enjoys projects and he usually doesn't plan to stay somewhere for several years. So I'd expect him to take a deep look at everything, start a few reforms and then move on after a few years.
Does he even want the job though? He gave a press conference today and it kinda sounded like he's focused on Hertha but wouldn't say no if the DFB makes the right kind of offer.
I agree with everything you've written, though I would add that Frankfurt fans maybe aren't the most objective set of people on the matter, considering how Bobic left the club.
And regarding the last line: what else is he supposed to say right now - short of a flat out rejecting a move? The DFB is in a chaotic state at the moment. They need to figure things out one issue at a time, for starters they only seem to have had their evaluation with Flick this afternoon, now they need to figure out how they want the structure to look like post Bierhoff (split posts (e.g. a dedicated manager for the youth setup) or keep everything together under one director) and only then they would be able to start discussing terms with Bobic, or whoever, and make an offer he'd be able to commit to. Until then he has to keep it vague.
 

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And regarding the last line: what else is he supposed to say right now - short of a flat out rejecting a move?
Yeah of course...he said all the right things at the press conference, also refusing to publicly speak on the current mess the DFB is in. That's one thing I like about him, he's very keen on keeping discussions private. Probably wouldn't be the ideal candidate for the likes of Bild and friends in that regard.
He did mention that he's happy that things at Hertha have finally taken a positive turn so I suppose he'd really like to be around to enjoy the fruits of his labor. But of course being Germany's sporting director would be the much more prestigious job...if he ends up being DFB's #1 option and they give him enough power then I doubt Hertha will have a chance to keep him.
He's actually going on a vacation trip to the USA tomorrow so I suppose he's not gonna sign anything in the next couple of days.
 

do.ob

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Neuer broke his leg and is out for the rest of the season.
Can they pull Nübel from Monaco?



Guerreiro out, Bensebaini in

another year, another Gladbach player/official?
 
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Niemans

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Neuer broke his leg and is out for the rest of the season.
Will there be a disciplinary sanction for Neuer? Players cannot do activities that endanger their physical integrity.

Lucas and Neuer will be 2 important casualties for the tie against Psg.
 

uamini

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Very unlikely, I think. Nübel has been adamant about being the No1, and not only an interim keeper.
But you're not seriously considering another CL run with Ulreich, are you?

This could be the beginning of the end for Neuer though, depending on how long it takes for him to get back to 100%...especially for the national team but I'm sure Bayern aren't exactly thrilled to hear their goalkeeper felt the need to go skiing in the middle of the season.

Then again maybe he gets lucky and is fully fit by the time the next season starts.
 

do.ob

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Very unlikely, I think. Nübel has been adamant about being the No1, and not only an interim keeper.
Still.. a good showing for Bayern, especially in the latter stages of the CL, could really kickstart his career on a serious level in a way that performing at Monaco just can't and even if Bayern would still return to Neuer, he could put himself on the lists of other big clubs. If he has hopes for the NT it wouldn't hurt his chances either, if he didn't have to wait out Neuer's retirement, before getting to play serious football.

Speaking about the Germany post:
how has the GK situation become so dire?



The generation that's now around 30+ years old turned out to be pretty great, even Ortega and Baumann deserve some praise, but after them it's just Nübel (and he doesn't fill me with confidence either) and then.. nothing.. Imagine in three years time the old guard has reitred or lost it: who is going to step up? Nübel no 1 by default? And then Florian Müller as his no 2?
 
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Hansi Fick

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Terrible news. Ulreich is just fecking awful.
Will there be a disciplinary sanction for Neuer? Players cannot do activities that endanger their physical integrity.

Lucas and Neuer will be 2 important casualties for the tie against Psg.
It's funny how Neuer states on IG that he got injured not skiing, but doing "Skitourengehen" (~ 'Ski hiking') which does sound like an attempt to evade insurance trouble..

But you're not seriously considering another CL run with Ulreich, are you?
I fear we are. I hope I'm wrong.
 

SirAF

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Will there be a disciplinary sanction for Neuer? Players cannot do activities that endanger their physical integrity.

Lucas and Neuer will be 2 important casualties for the tie against Psg.
What a fecking tit :lol: Who goes skiing in the middle of the season when you’re a pro footballer?
 

Skills

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But you're not seriously considering another CL run with Ulreich, are you?

This could be the beginning of the end for Neuer though, depending on how long it takes for him to get back to 100%...especially for the national team but I'm sure Bayern aren't exactly thrilled to hear their goalkeeper felt the need to go skiing in the middle of the season.

Then again maybe he gets lucky and is fully fit by the time the next season starts.
Just feels so reckless at the age of 37 when he's probably got another 2-3 years of top level football left, and then he could've done as much skiing as he wanted
 

Zehner

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fecking hell, they appointed Bruno Labbadia? Didn't know that. Jesus, they were on such a good path with Mislintat, Matarazzo and a focus on young and promising players. Now this?
 

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Bruno starting his new job in style.
Sport1 only has this quote:
"Wie der 56-Jährige weiterführte, gab es früher Klauseln, aber er wisse nicht, wie es heute damit aussehe. Er mache sich allerdings auch keine allzu großen Sorgen um die Gefahr eines Skiunfalls bei seinen Spielern: „Wenn ich auf unseren Kader blicke, dann kann ich mir nicht vorstellen, dass viele Spieler auf Skiern stehen, sondern verbinde sie eher mit der Sonne“, witzelte Labbadia."

https://www.sport1.de/news/fussball...a-reagiert-auf-den-skiunfall-von-manuel-neuer

Did that idiot really name two black players as examples?
 

do.ob

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Sport1 only has this quote:
"Wie der 56-Jährige weiterführte, gab es früher Klauseln, aber er wisse nicht, wie es heute damit aussehe. Er mache sich allerdings auch keine allzu großen Sorgen um die Gefahr eines Skiunfalls bei seinen Spielern: „Wenn ich auf unseren Kader blicke, dann kann ich mir nicht vorstellen, dass viele Spieler auf Skiern stehen, sondern verbinde sie eher mit der Sonne“, witzelte Labbadia."

https://www.sport1.de/news/fussball...a-reagiert-auf-den-skiunfall-von-manuel-neuer

Did that idiot really name two black players as examples?
Almost exactly at 40:00 minutes.
 

do.ob

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Not the most pleasant bunch of people, but aside from Völler it's quite the lineup in terms of management success.
I don't think Mintzlaff should be there either.
 
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Zehner

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Not the most pleasant bunch of people, but aside from Völler it's quite the lineup in terms of management success.
I don't think Mintzlaff should be there either.
What exactly have Kahn and Mintzlaff achieved Völler hasn't?

That aside, I'm very happy Rummenigge is in a gremium to analyse the feck ups of the Qatar WC. Do I spot a new rolex on his wrist by the way?
 
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