German Football 22/23 | 2. Bundesliga returns | Hamburg vs Schalke 20:30 |

[el diablorojo]

Isn't it? It was reported by Kicker, which usually is a reliable German source.

I didn't make a wider point about Brentford. I just think that paying €25m for a fringe player of Freiburg, who had one start all season in the league, upping their transfer record by about €25m is silly. And I'm assuming it's €25m, because Kicker reported it and they are usually very reliable.

From somebody who speaks directly to the owner and director of football " I doubt the fee is anywhere near accurate."

I guess with a number of performance related "add ons" it might get up to large fee but no chance Freiburg are getting 25m in their bank when it is made permanent.

Thing is our purchases are not done without comprehensive research - I mean look at Vitaly Janelt, apparently Bochum couldn't believe we wanted him he is now a regular starter in the Premier League. Which was why I responded to the dumb with their money bit

 

[Trumpeter Whydah]

Great reasoning. So Dortmund buying flops makes the business of Brentford better how exactly..?
Not to mention that those guys quite easily could have secured a PL move at the time Dortmund bought them. I mean you mentioned yourself that Schürrle was still able to join a PL club after he had already flipped badly in Dortmund.

You misunderstood what is in fact rhetoric reasoning: neither Dortmund nor Brentford are dumb.

Both are doing a clever job with specific regards to their steady growth under FFP and its current reform. Having their squad costs grow is so important to their sustainability approach that they allow themselves to sign players that would otherwise be cheaper, as some sort of placeholders. When time comes to replace them, the club will be able to sign someone that would currently be above their weight class. It's a cumulative effect that allows for growing safely, step by step. Wolf and Schade were and are lucky: yes! Dortmund and Brentford dumb: no!

Really, Brentford is among the last sides that should come to mind when we're talking clubs spending dumb money.

 

[do.ob]

You misunderstood what is in fact rhetoric reasoning: neither Dortmund nor Brentford are dumb.

Both are doing a clever job with specific regards to their steady growth under FFP and its current reform. Having their squad costs grow is so important to their sustainability approach that they allow themselves to sign players that would otherwise be cheaper, as some sort of placeholders. When time comes to replace them, the club will be able to sign someone that would currently be above their weight class. It's a cumulative effect that allows for growing safely, step by step. Wolf and Schade were and are lucky: yes! Dortmund and Brentford dumb: no!

Really, Brentford is among the last sides that should come to mind when we're talking clubs spending dumb money.

Are you trying to tell me that clubs deliberately overspend by 10s of millions in order to game FFP? We aren't talking about Barca's and Juve's creative accounting here.

There was no hidden agenda with Schulz, he had a great season for Hoffenheim and based on the assumption that he would continue on that level Dortmund paid a fairly reasonable fee - only he didn't... Wolf had a €5m release clause, how does that compare to paying 5 times that sum for Schade? And Schürrle was the definition of a dumb transfer, because you could see his flop coming from a mile away, I would never dream of trying to dress that one up as anything but insanity.

 

[Zehner]

Both are doing a clever job with specific regards to their steady growth under FFP and its current reform. Having their squad costs grow is so important to their sustainability approach that they allow themselves to sign players that would otherwise be cheaper, as some sort of placeholders.

I read a few articles about Midtjylland and recently learned that Brentford follows the same strategy. Very interesting and I believe you that they don't spend money dumbly but I don't quite get the quoted part, could you explain that in a bit more detail?

 

[Trumpeter Whydah]

I read a few articles about Midtjylland and recently learned that Brentford follows the same strategy. Very interesting and I believe you that they don't spend money dumbly but I don't quite get the quoted part, could you explain that in a bit more detail?

You know that very well already, stell dich nicht dumber als du bist

The data-driven moneyball strategy you refer to is an entirely different thing, but certainly adds to thw notion of Brentford operaring cleverly.

What I'm laying the finger on is that the price for Schade - as well as for the above mentioned - is only overpriced when you measure it against the (expected) performances over ninety and a season. It is not overpriced when you measure it against an onrolling and increasing budget.

And yes, do.ob, I'm telling you that steady personel costs is/was so utterly important to Dortmund that they offered Wolf far more than he could ever expect. He'd likely have signed for half the salary. Still, this wasn't madness by any means, but a method to carry volumes forward, seeking to sustainably invest the EPL millions (past and future, so Auba, Christian, Mkhi, Sancho) into salary. Thus, it is less creative and more so clever accounting.

Anyway, I refuse to label the Brentford guys and their approch dumb in any way.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Both are doing a clever job with specific regards to their steady growth under FFP and its current reform. Having their squad costs grow is so important to their sustainability approach that they allow themselves to sign players that would otherwise be cheaper, as some sort of placeholders. When time comes to replace them, the club will be able to sign someone that would currently be above their weight class. It's a cumulative effect that allows for growing safely, step by step. Wolf and Schade were and are lucky: yes! Dortmund and Brentford dumb: no!

And yes, do.ob, I'm telling you that steady personel costs is/was so utterly important to Dortmund that they offered Wolf far more than he could ever expect. He'd likely have signed for half the salary. Still, this wasn't madness by any means, but a method to carry volumes forward, seeking to sustainably invest the EPL millions (past and future, so Auba, Christian, Mkhi, Sancho) into salary. Thus, it is less creative and more so clever accounting.

Interesting.
Could you walk a layman as myself through this point in some detail? Carry volumes forward? In what way is squad cost growth important for sustainability and under FFP? I feel dumb. I need a wiki entry in simple English on this.

 

[Trumpeter Whydah]

Interesting.
Could you walk a layman as myself through this point in some detail? Carry volumes forward? In what way is squad cost growth important for sustainability and under FFP? I feel dumb. I need a wiki entry in simple English on this.

Ja, ja! As if, dear Hansi, as if

Still, some FFP-wiki for you: "Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, finance, sales of players and prize money."

 

[Acrobat7]

We signed Daley Blind? Okay then…
Why did they terminate his contract at Ajax?

 

[Cheimoon]

We signed Daley Blind? Okay then…
Why did they terminate his contract at Ajax?

He disagreed with Schreuder's approach, both generally and with regards to how he's used in the team. Apparently that turned into an 'either he goes or I go' situation, and Ajax decided to let Blind leave on a free.

 

[do.ob]

Ja, ja! As if, dear Hansi, as if

Still, some FFP-wiki for you: "Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, finance, sales of players and prize money."

What does this passage have to do with your argument? It describes how FFP takes a limited view at spending, because it's mandate is to curb overspending on players, while allowing sensible long-term investments into e.g. training grounds or stadiums. So it won't count this kind of spending.

You know that very well already, stell dich nicht dumber als du bist

The data-driven moneyball strategy you refer to is an entirely different thing, but certainly adds to thw notion of Brentford operaring cleverly.

What I'm laying the finger on is that the price for Schade - as well as for the above mentioned - is only overpriced when you measure it against the (expected) performances over ninety and a season. It is not overpriced when you measure it against an onrolling and increasing budget.

And yes, do.ob, I'm telling you that steady personel costs is/was so utterly important to Dortmund that they offered Wolf far more than he could ever expect. He'd likely have signed for half the salary. Still, this wasn't madness by any means, but a method to carry volumes forward, seeking to sustainably invest the EPL millions (past and future, so Auba, Christian, Mkhi, Sancho) into salary. Thus, it is less creative and more so clever accounting.

Anyway, I refuse to label the Brentford guys and their approch dumb in any way.

At the time of his transfer Wolf had a value of say €10m to €15m, Dortmund got him for €5m via a release clause. Thus he was able to negotiate a higher wage, because even if we believe he highest estimates of €5m p.a. that would mean a total package of €30m, the same as if they had to pay a "fair" fee and "fair" wages, e.g. €15m and €3m p.a. There is no clever accounting here. Just a player, whose transfer didn't work as well as expected.

No one would give a player more than their have to, they give players what they are able to negotiate. The words wage-structure and wage-hygiene exist for a reason. And it's especially ironic to use these particular transfers as an example, since Kehl's big credo is cleaning up the wage structure, precisely because of the players you mentioned.

And even if somehow clubs had to spend money to get a bigger FFP budget (which I'm 99% sure isn't the case, at the very least for Dortmund) they wouldn't just hand out money to random clubs or players, they'd either spend it on extra players or buy players that deserve to be that expensive.
Like if Brentford honestly believed that Schade was a €10m player, why would they spend €25m on him instead of just buying an actual €25m (as in better) player? If Dortmund could have saved €2.5m p.a. on Wolf, why wouldn't they have spend that money on a free agent? Giving them a deeper squad for the same cost?

 

[Blackwidow]

We signed Daley Blind? Okay then…
Why did they terminate his contract at Ajax?

Seems like he is needed as our injury miseries in defense go on...

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But he is not Bayern's first player with problems after Covid infection... there is some expertise...

 

[Hansi Fick]

Seems like he is needed as our injury miseries in defense go on...

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But he is not Bayern's first player with problems after Covid infection... there is some expertise...

Is it the same which Phonzie had last January? (Or was it the year before?) Heart inflammation?

It would mean Mazraoui is out for 2 months even if things go well. feck this shit.

 

[Blackwidow]

Is it the same which Phonzie had last January? (Or was it the year before?) Heart inflammation?

It would mean Mazraoui is out for 2 months even if things go well. feck this shit.

Yes, same as Phonzy. He had Covid during the World Cup and did not play against Portugal - but after that played in the last match...

The Covid cases weren't made official during the World Cup. Wonder how many there were...

 

[Acrobat7]

He disagreed with Schreuder's approach, both generally and with regards to how he's used in the team. Apparently that turned into an 'eitger he goes or I go' situation, and Ajax decided to let Blind leave on a free.

Thank you! He is probably (very) cheap and can cover as LCB and LB in the Bundesliga. Hernandez is out and Davies cannot play every game. Therefore, I like this transfer. No risk for Bayern.

 

[King Kendrick]

Thank you! He is probably (very) cheap and can cover as LCB and LB in the Bundesliga. Hernandez is out and Davies cannot play every game. Therefore, I like this transfer. No risk for Bayern.

While I do like the signing, it’ll be interesting to see how Nagelsmann adjusts for the dramatic differences in play styles. He’s lost another half step in speed also.

 

[Hansi Fick]

While I do like the signing, it’ll be interesting to see how Nagelsmann adjusts for the dramatic differences in play styles. He’s lost another half step in speed also.

Nagelsmann has two ways to use full backs anyway, an attacking, quasi-winger way (Phonzie) and a defensive, quasi RCB/LCB way (Hernandez, Pavard). Sometimes this means it becomes asymetrical in essentially a three man defense, and I would expect that to happen when Blind plays. He'll play more like a LCB while the right back will become a winger (with Mazraoui out, this might mean 2 CBs plus Blind and then Coman or Gnabry as right "wing back" that doesn't actually run "back").

 

[do.ob]

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Unlucky

 

[ForEverEleven]

If Wirtz is benched for the Euros instead of Müller....

 

[Zehner]

If Wirtz is benched for the Euros instead of Müller....

I don't think so. Flick almost took Wirtz to the WC although he played no game after his injury. He clearly values him highly. When Wirtz is back to his best, he'll make his way into the starting line up sooner or later.

 

[Blackwidow]

If Wirtz is benched for the Euros instead of Müller....

Wirtz has not even arrived in the national team until now and has not played after a season of injury. Let him come back first.
And on the 10 we have already Musiala and Sane often has a role as a second no. 10, too. Musiala actually is the bigger hurdle for Wirtz. Playing Müller is a totally different subject as he is played mainly because of his organisational an tactical skills.

If Müller is better than the young ones in spring 2024 and more important for the team - why should another player play? Isn't it about the best?

 

[Acrobat7]

If Wirtz is benched for the Euros instead of Müller....

If Wirtz isn‘t able to beat out a 57 year old Müller at the Euros…

 

[do.ob]

Wirtz has not even arrived in the national team until now and has not played after a season of injury. Let him come back first.
And on the 10 we have already Musiala and Sane often has a role as a second no. 10, too. Musiala actually is the bigger hurdle for Wirtz. Playing Müller is a totally different subject as he is played mainly because of his organisational an tactical skills.

If Müller is better than the young ones in spring 2024 and more important for the team - why should another player play? Isn't it about the best?

Müller hasn't done anything of note at international tournaments since when? 2014? And he's been in good to great club form for almost all of those years. At some point it may be time to pull the plug on him and build up someone else.

 

[Zehner]

I like Müller and even if he didn't exactly set the world on fire at the WC, the team still played well save for 20 minutes against Japan so him in the starting line up seemed to work out in general. That being said, I'll be happy for him if he gets to play another international tournament for Germany but if so I hope it is in a cameo role, too. I get that he's great at organizing the team pressing but to me that isn't enough anymore to warrant a what he's lacking in terms of overall contribution compared to his competitors - especially since Wirtz in particular is excellent at pressing, too, and has an incredible work rate for a player of his kind. Moreover, I believe that if the team pressing collpased because you took out Müller that's inacceptable since there are many players who are established names in elite teams approaching their 30s such as Kimmich, Goretzka, Rüdiger, Gnabry, Sané, etc. They not only need no babysitter, they should be ready to babysit themselves.

Regarding Wirtz, a player of his quality will obviously earn himself a spot in the starting line up rather sooner than later. Whether a year is enough for that remains to be seen but it is clear as day that he'll be too good to drop, especially since Musiala is most likely used best in the left half spaces with a full back behind him that provides width.

 

[arthurka]

Müller macht es.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Musiala actually is the bigger hurdle for Wirtz.

A sensible coach plays both of them.

 

[do.ob]

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Standard statement for a 26 year old.

 

[do.ob]

Granted, it's just friendlies after Bayern and if they do okay next game no one on earth will care. But it seems to be quite "on brand" for them these days.

 

[Piratesoup]

Granted, it's just friendlies after Bayern and if they do okay next game no one on earth will care. But it seems to be quite "on brand" for them these days.

Rapid is down bad if they can't even beat Schalke...

 

[do.ob]

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Dortmund react to Meunier's injury.

Rapid is down bad if they can't even beat Schalke...

They probably didn't play at full strength.

 

[Blackwidow]

Bayern is stealing from the opponents...

 

[uamini]

Bayern is stealing from the opponents...

Your data is 4 years old...this is more recent, from last august:

 

[do.ob]

Your data is 4 years old...this is more recent, from last august:

The numbers in that table don't seem to fit that claim.

 

[uamini]

The numbers in that table don't seem to fit that claim.

How so? The first table was published on May 24th 2019 and the second one on August 15th 2022.

And of course Blackwidow's point still stands: Dortmund does buy a lot of players from other Bundesliga teams.

Would be interesting to see a similar table with who has sold the most players.

 

[do.ob]

How so? The first table was published on May 24th 2019 and the second one on August 15th 2022.

And of course Blackwidow's point still stands: Dortmund does buy a lot of players from other Bundesliga teams.

Would be interesting to see a similar table with who has sold the most players.

Because your table is showing fewer transfers and money spent, so either it's older or it's showing something else.

 

[Acrobat7]

Because your table is showing fewer transfers and money spent, so either it's older or it's showing something else.

Probably something like „last 3 years“ or something like that. But I agree, there is information missing

 

[stefan92]

Probably something like „last 3 years“ or something like that. But I agree, there is information missing

This is the source: https://www.transfermarkt.de/meiste...n-von-der-konkurrenz-stellen/view/news/409546

The table contains the current squad of the teams. So players who moved on or retired will not be counted any longer, that explains why there are fewer tranfers and less money listed.

 

[Hansi Fick]

This is the source: https://www.transfermarkt.de/meiste...n-von-der-konkurrenz-stellen/view/news/409546

The table contains the current squad of the teams. So players who moved on or retired will not be counted any longer, that explains why there are fewer tranfers and less money listed.

Trying to piece together those 139m spent by Bayern with only the current squad, using transfermarkt numbers, we can go back to Neuer's 30m in 2011, plus 35m for Pavard, then 42.5m for Upamecano and 15m for Sabitzer, and 8.5m for Kimmich and 8m Gnabry.
Bayern destroying the competition of Schalke, Stuttgart, RB and Bremen, no wonder it's such a boring league.

 

[Hansi Fick]

+8m for Sommer.. Gladbach's title challenge ends today.

 

[Blackwidow]

+8m for Sommer.. Gladbach's title challenge ends today.

They already knew it in the 80s.

 

[Acrobat7]

+8m for Sommer.. Gladbach's title challenge ends today.

Bayern is just buying him to finally win a game against Gladbach.