Leipzig made the CL semi finals last season and finished ahead of United in the group stages just this year. This topic is just going to get bumped now for every single bad result for a German team and will rest on days like yesterday, where a German team progressed.
German football is turd
- Thread starter TwoSheds
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
We beat them 7-3 head to head...
Get lost from this thread!
Funny you bring them up, they barely scraped through and had to be hard carried by the hottest wonderkid in the game. Once he leaves, they'll be just like Leipzig tonight. And Sevilla aren't even all that.
Dortmund were without 4-5 first team players including Sancho.
And Sevilla are fourth in Spain while Dortmund are 6th, maybe we should start a 'La Liga is turd' thread as well
I mean, duh?Dortmund were without 4-5 first team players including Sancho.
And Sevilla are fourth in Spain while Dortmund are 6th, maybe we should start a 'La Liga is turd' thread as well
PL > everything else
Sevilla aren't all that? Didn't a United manager remind us about their football heritage
I absolutely agree that Dortmund were not only quite bad last night but their starting line up also looked shit based on the players they had available. In fact I actually also pointed that out yesterday, so no need to find it funny.
But this hypocritical "Leipzig are turd" or "German football is turd" stuff is once again being posted on the back of a single tie where in this case Leipzig weren't good enough. Still this season they already managed to look good and go neck and neck with United and PSG who are just much bigger clubs at this point in time. Do you guys expect Leipzig to beat any of PSG, United or Liverpool? They're bound to get found out against one of the big boys at some point. As everyone here knows, the group stages had the better ending for Leipzig and not United this year. While yes, United shouldn't have dropped points against Basaksehir, and thus shouldn't even have been in the position of potentially missing out, Leipzig also shouldn't have lost their second game against PSG based on what happened during that game and thus could've also been out of sight for PSG at that point. It was overall extremely close and in the end the current 2nd placed team of the Bundesliga advanced ahead of the 2nd placed team of the PL.
Does that mean anything regarding the overall strength of Leipzig, United, English football, or German football? Does tonight's game or the tie mean anything? Does Leipzig destroying Tottenham over 2 legs last season or getting past Atletico that had previously dumped out Liverpool mean anything? All of these ties are probably no more than little pieces of evidence regarding the overall strength of a club or a league.
Yes, it may be easy to point at tonight's game or even at Dortmund yesterday or honestly even at the absolute shit show that German Europa League teams presented this year. It's not a great European season for German teams. But based on recent evidence alone, despite tonight's performance, Leipzig have definitely not been turd over the course of the last year in the CL. German teams just last season collected the second most UEFA coefficient points out of any leagues' teams. Leipzig were a reason for that as they got to the UCL semis then. They made it out of a group of death this year where they had to go up against 2 of world's biggest or most financially potent clubs and now got dumped out by the current PL champions who are also just more experienced at this level and won the competition only 2 seasons ago.
There's no denying that their performance today was shit, but overall they're far from a bad side. In fact they're quite a good side who have become regular CL knock out contestants. They're still such a new club on the scene, that that in itself isn't too bad for them. Declaring a whole country's level of football as shit based on two nights of football in Budapest without fans against a much richer club is just objectively awkward. It's an easy thing to say if a team loses, doesn't mean it's necessarily correct.
There are a couple of good German teams, including probably the best team in the world, but in general the standard is turd. Don’t see the problem with the opening statement.
Anyone with a set of eyeballs can see German football is turd. Arsenal would finish second in the Bundesliga.
You actually mean that?
Yes. At a push third, but I don't think they would finish below that.
2/4 CL Semi Finalists last season were German teams.
The 2 hottest goalscorers in Europe currently play for German teams.
All 4 German CL teams advanced to the round of 16. So a quarter of the top teams in Europe this season are from Germany.
It's been a kinda bad European season for German teams overall, and the quality of the teams has been really flaky, and still the actual facts look quite alright.
Arsenal are 10th in the PL and barely scraped by Benfica in the EL round of 32. Their last player they sent to the Bundesliga, Guendouzi, is fighting against relegation with Hertha Berlin. There's not a single hint that this would have any substance right now.
Not to insult Arsenal or anything, but this is exactly the type of made up circle jerk opinions that people pick up in topics like this these days, to then just repeat them whenever they see a German team lose.
A few of you need to sit down and have a long hard think about the fact you're publicly sharing that you hold the same opinions as Michael Owen.
Whenever I am in doubt about any footballing opinion, I consider the opinions of Owen, Hargreaves or Don Hutchinson and then pick the opposite.
Whenever I am in doubt about any footballing opinion, I consider the opinions of Owen, Hargreaves or Don Hutchinson and then pick the opposite.
It doesn't quite work like that. Otherwise Liverpool are 8th, a few points ahead of Arsenal, and they comprehensively beat the second best team in Germany twice.
Dortmund, Leipzig, Leverkusen would all compete with Arsenal for second place in the Bundesliga.
People have very short term memories it seems. The German league had 2 teams in the semi's of last year's CL. They had all 4 teams qualify out of the group this year, 1 ahead of the team 2nd in the Premier League, but because Leipzig play some bad games against Liverpool it's all terrible.
Using some of the logic here, they'd be saying in Germany that Utd would be mid-table in the Bundesliga.
Michael Owen's logic on BT Sport tonight was even worse, downplaying the Bundesliga, and talking up Serie A. Would that be the Serie A where the perceived best team lost to 10 man Porto last night, and the runaway leaders couldn't get out of their group.
Using some of the logic here, they'd be saying in Germany that Utd would be mid-table in the Bundesliga.
Michael Owen's logic on BT Sport tonight was even worse, downplaying the Bundesliga, and talking up Serie A. Would that be the Serie A where the perceived best team lost to 10 man Porto last night, and the runaway leaders couldn't get out of their group.
Just like the 2nd best team in the Premier League didn't advance, while the 2nd best team in the Bundesliga did. I agree with you that it doesn't quite work with head to head results. But to propose that "Arsenal would finish second in the Bundesliga" or "at a push third" in their current form simply has no foundation. It's just not even a theory that you could find any potential indicators for as Arsenal just aren't competing on the level that they used to be at right now.
If there was a joint league consisting of the current top half of Bundesliga and Premier League teams, how would you rate them?
I'd go
Man City
Bayern Munich
Man United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Tottenham Hotspur
Borussia Dortmund
Leicester City
Everton
Arsenal
RB Leipzig
Bayer Leverkusen
Wolfsburg
Eintracht Frankfurt
West Ham
Aston Villa
Freiburg
Union Berlin
Stuttgart
I'd go
Man City
Bayern Munich
Man United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Tottenham Hotspur
Borussia Dortmund
Leicester City
Everton
Arsenal
RB Leipzig
Bayer Leverkusen
Wolfsburg
Eintracht Frankfurt
West Ham
Aston Villa
Freiburg
Union Berlin
Stuttgart
Not only are you not including Gladbach (amongst top 16 teams in Europe this season, while Inter went out in that other group of death), perhaps because you didn't care to look further down the Bundesliga table, instead of just blindly copying the current table. You're also just generally not even trying if you're currently considering Dortmund to be stronger than Leipzig.
What exactly have Spurs shown against German teams again recently?
Are you confident because of their 0-1 and 0-3 losses over 2 legs against Leipzig last season? Or was it their 2-7 and 1-3 losses against Bayern?
I also seem to remember the aggregate score between Chelsea and Bayern having been 1-7 just last season.
United went out in the group stages just this season while Leipzig progressed.
Nobody is claiming that the Bundesliga is currently competing with the PL. But you're just trying to bolster your PL-fan ego the second you see teams from another league lose it seems.
Leipzig don't impress me. I know how that sounds given they qualified from our group, but imo we fecked up in Turkey and the return against PSG. Win in Turkey or get a draw against PSG (we could/should have won on the balance of play) and we're through.
Upamecano seems like a great player. Too bad he's going to Bayern.
Upamecano seems like a great player. Too bad he's going to Bayern.
Man City over Bayern is a fecking joke.
As weird as it sounds but it was PSG that actually scraped through on match day 5 despite making it comfortably on match day 6 in the end.
Both their return legs against United and Leipzig could've easily went differently as well. Had they not got a shaky win against Leipzig in the return leg, they would've lost the head 2 head against them and Leipzig could've even lost against United on the last match day.
This is the other game that turned the group on its head, aside of United Basaksehir. 1-0 to PSG against Leipzig in Paris from a penalty, yet check the stats:
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2029437--paris-vs-leipzig/statistics/?iv=true
19 (PSG) to 0 (RBL) clearances. 59% possession for Leipzig. 2x more shots for Leipzig, 659 to 369 passes attempted for Leipzig, 6 to 2 corners, ran 5 km more.
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I didn't have Gladbach in there because they are not in the top half of the Bundesliga table as my theoretical table stated.
There's no doubt Bayern and City are levels above any other team but I'm not buying for a minute the rest of the bums in the Bundesliga would do anything of note in the Premier League.
And yes, we are pretty shite these days. As are Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. But we are still better than most Bundesliga teams.
I don't understand how we are in any position to say that. Both the PL and United.
Why? Bayern have dropped a level this season. Man City have gone up one. It's a toss up between the pair on who is better, it certainly isn't a joke as if it was something cut and dry.
Well you had Union Berlin in there who were just promoted this season, so I thought your exclusion of Gladbach couldn't really be on purpose...
Last season. They did well too considering they were newly promoted and have performed again above expectations this season.
Wow, you're absolutely right, I didn't even realize.
I do know they performed above expectations this season but I guess what happened in the national leagues across Europe in that god awful covid season last year was just completely wiped from my memory. By that I mean anything that happened across Europe's national leagues, including what happened in the PL.
Bayern have recently won the CL, WC, Supercup and a domestic treble. Half their squad are WC winners, with big experience in international tournaments.
Man City are perennial chokers. No one in their team has won anything internationally, and individually no one would walk into the German team. But they're somehow favorites.
The anglo bias is so obvious in these comparisons, that's why it's a joke.
It’s not a joke to have City as a favorite over Bayern this season. Check your local bookies as well.
Tottenham never wins the PL, City never wins the CL, Leverkusen never wins anything.
Some things are just facts and will never change.
We set ourselves up for a downfall in Leipzig with the 3 at the back and AWB getting rinsed. All fell apart right from kickoff and the damage was done in minutes, was a real gift from us. They've looked ordinary up front at OT and both Liverpool games.
They cited AWB at OT but nothing came of it but then over there we handed AWB on a plate in a 3. Spectacularly poor from Ole on that night. He had options with DvB, who did excellent in the 5-0 home game and was playing well in this early period like at Newcastle. There was no need to mess about at the back and midfield after Ole failed to withdraw Fred before getting sent off to PSG.
They cited AWB at OT but nothing came of it but then over there we handed AWB on a plate in a 3. Spectacularly poor from Ole on that night. He had options with DvB, who did excellent in the 5-0 home game and was playing well in this early period like at Newcastle. There was no need to mess about at the back and midfield after Ole failed to withdraw Fred before getting sent off to PSG.
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What's honestly disappointed me the most from German clubs this season were Hoffenheim and Leverkusen utterly choking in the EL. Both comfortably made it out of their groups that had sides from the other big 5 leagues and they couldn't get past two random teams from smaller leagues.
Hoffenheim gave away a 2 goal lead in the first leg and then missed tons of chances in the second to go out. Leverkusen decided to play their 2nd string keeper who royally fecked up in both legs.
Had they done what was expected and reached the next stage Germany would be fine in the coefficient points. Right now they're fourth just behind the Serie A, though the BL should go ahead in the coming weeks if Bayern and Madrid see off Lazio and Atalanta.
So City kicks out Bayern in the quarterfinals then.
Sterling, Gundogan, De Bruyne, Laporte, Dias, Cancelo probably would walk in easily. Cancelo depending on how they use Kimmich.
Besides, 4 world cup winners is hardly half a squad and when you consider that these four include Boateng who couldn't hack it at City, the aging Muller and Pavard who is not a world beater, it kinda weakens your argument considerably.
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Bayern is a bit hit and miss this season. Lost their best midfielder, the defense isn't really in form and they showed a very low bottom level already.
Quality-wise they're pretty on par if you ask me.
People who waxe strong about the superiority of the PL over all other leagues remind me of our resident SEC fans in the US. Annoying clowns, both lots.
It's definitely far from half a squad, but I think you forgot Hernandez and Tolisso.
Also if you ask me it's a bit odd to use Boateng's one season at City over a decade ago to discredit him when he went on to have a career most players can only dream of. Granted he's past his peak now but he was at the core of two Championsleague and a world cup winning side, as well as many deep CL runs.