German football is turd

[Siorac]

Sevilla aren't all that? Didn't a United manager remind us about their football heritage

Yeah, we lost two and drew one against them in the last three years. The arrogance is misguided, to say the least.

 

[Lyricist]

Sterling, Gundogan, De Bruyne, Laporte, Dias, Cancelo probably would walk in easily. Cancelo depending on how they use Kimmich.

Besides, 4 world cup winners is hardly half a squad and when you consider that these four include Boateng who couldn't hack it at City, the aging Muller and Pavard who is not a world beater, it kinda weakens your argument considerably.

So you got Neuer, Boateng, Müller, and Pavard I’m guessing? You’re forgetting Hernandez, Tolisso, and Javi Martinez. Coman missed out As he was injured. 7 still isn’t half a squad, I’ll give you that.

You’re judging Boateng by his time as a fullback at City. That was the same year as the South Africa World Cup. You must be joking surely? Since then he won the World Cup and 2 CLs while making it to the CL semis many more times. City did what exactly in the CL in the same time frame?

Müller is basically in his second prime and is getting more goal contributions across all competitions than ever before. He was also an integral part in his second tripple win last year.

Bayern’s CM combination of Kimmich and Goretzka, I don’t see Gündogan getting in there or in the OM spot ahead of Müller. De Bruyne is a top 10 player in the World but even then Müller is Bayern’s poster boy and has been amongst their most influential players in the last decade. If it wasn’t a Bavarian club I’d agree but Müller is the academy player poster boy as well as a leader on the pitch.

Sterling, Laporte, Dias are all debatable, they certainly wouldn’t “walk in easily”. I agree on Cancelo as Bayern’s weakest position is probably RB.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Bayern is a bit hit and miss this season. Lost their best midfielder, the defense isn't really in form and they showed a very low bottom level already.

Quality-wise they're pretty on par if you ask me.

Dude, stop it with that

 

[Zehner]

Dude, stop it with that

Why would I? Because it's currently popular to hate on Thiago?

He was their best midfielder last season. Kimmich was also great and is a world class midfielder but not on Thiago's level of last season.

 

[Zehner]

So you got Neuer, Boateng, Müller, and Pavard I’m guessing? You’re forgetting Hernandez and Tolisso. Coman missed out As he was injured. 6 still isn’t half a squad, I’ll give you that.

You’re judging Boateng by his time as a fullback at City. That was the same year as the South Africa World Cup. You must be joking surely? Since then he won the World Cup and 2 CLs while making it to the CL semis many more times. City did what exactly in the CL in the same time frame?

Müller is basically in his second prime and is getting more goal contributions across all competitions than ever before. He was also an integral part in his second tripple win last year.

Bayern’s CM combination of Kimmich and Goretzka, I don’t see Gündogan getting in there or in the OM spot ahead of Müller. De Bruyne is a top 10 player in the World but even then Müller is Bayern’s poster boy and has been amongst their most influential players in the last decade. If it wasn’t a Bavarian club I’d agree but Müller is the academy player poster boy as well as a leader on the pitch.

Sterling, Laporte, Dias are all debatable, they certainly wouldn’t “walk in easily”. I agree on Cancelo as Bayern’s weakest position is probably RB.

I think it's not even debatable that Gündogan would play instead of Goretzka and de Bruyne instead of Müller. Cancelo would also start. Since Sterling was always ahead of Sané in City's hierarchy I also expect him to start over at least one out of Gnabry, Sané and Coman but it's a close call. I also assume Bernardo Silva would find his way into the squad somehow but maybe by displacing one of the other City players mentioned before.

Individually, this Bayern team isn't on the same level as the one that won the CL in 2013. They had much more quality in the squad.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Why would I? Because it's currently popular to hate on Thiago?

He was their best midfielder last season. Kimmich was also great and is a world class midfielder but not on Thiago's level of last season.

It has nothing to do with this season with me, I've said even when it was rumoured that Thiago was leaving that Kimmich is overall a better midfielder and that Goretzka-Kimmich match better together.

Kimmich was definitely better than Thiago last season, no doubt for me he was the best midfielder last season. A top 10 player in the world.

 

[Zehner]

It has nothing to do with this season with me, I've said even when it was rumoured that Thiago was leaving that Kimmich is overall a better midfielder and that Goretzka-Kimmich match better together.

Kimmich was definitely better than Thiago last season, no doubt for me he was the best midfielder last season. A top 10 player in the world.

I disagree as you know. Everytime I watched Bayern with Thiago on the pitch last season, he was the best midfielder for my liking. Kimmich is quality and a world class player but wasn't on Thiago's level. He was better with the ball at his feet and his defensive contribution was really underrated. His defensive stats don't look much worse than Kimmich's.

Also, could you explain why Goretzka - Kimmich is the better pairing to you? Goretzka is a good player to have against weaker sides which surrender the ball to you so he can push into the box but if the opponent presses you he's often a liability. He showed that in the CL final when he was no factor at all. I doubt he would've started if Pavard was fit.

 

[C'mon FC]

We battered them 5-0 also

And still they got 2nd in the group.
Btw. enjoy watching Euro league tonight

 

[JJ12]

And still they got 2nd in the group.
Btw. enjoy watching Euro league tonight

Very strange jab from a Koln fan

 

[hasanejaz88]

I disagree as you know. Everytime I watched Bayern with Thiago on the pitch last season, he was the best midfielder for my liking. Kimmich is quality and a world class player but wasn't on Thiago's level. He was better with the ball at his feet and his defensive contribution was really underrated. His defensive stats don't look much worse than Kimmich's.

Also, could you explain why Goretzka - Kimmich is the better pairing to you? Goretzka is a good player to have against weaker sides which surrender the ball to you so he can push into the box but if the opponent presses you he's often a liability. He showed that in the CL final when he was no factor at all. I doubt he would've started if Pavard was fit.

I said it before, can't find my post, but Goretzka adds verstaility in that he adds an offensive threat, which Thiago never has. For retaining possession, Kimmich is good enough to retain it against the weaker opponents and against the top opponents you can sit deep and attack on the counter with guys like Goretzka. With Thiago, you have to play a fixed style by dominating possession as he doesn't seem suited to playing on the counter given his lack of energy going forward.

Retaining possession is not the be-all end-all of football, being able to play various styles should be, which was why Heynckes' Bayern were so great. Goretzka allows that.

 

[The Corinthian]

Very strange jab from a Koln fan

The German team posters on this board are a very strange bunch.

 

[RUCK4444]

The German team posters on this board are a very strange bunch.

Yeah super defensive... even of other Bundesliga teams they don’t support. Bit odd

 

[Hansi Fick]

Yeah super defensive... even of other Bundesliga teams they don’t support. Bit odd

German posters being 'super defensive' in a thread called "German football is turd". Bit odd

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I said it before, can't find my post, but Goretzka adds verstaility in that he adds an offensive threat, which Thiago never has. For retaining possession, Kimmich is good enough to retain it against the weaker opponents and against the top opponents you can sit deep and attack on the counter with guys like Goretzka. With Thiago, you have to play a fixed style by dominating possession as he doesn't seem suited to playing on the counter given his lack of energy going forward.

Retaining possession is not the be-all end-all of football, being able to play various styles should be, which was why Heynckes' Bayern were so great. Goretzka allows that.

But Zehner can appreciate a proper midfielder performance, which you clearly can't.

 

[RUCK4444]

German posters being 'super defensive' in a thread called "German football is turd". Bit odd

Calling a league turd doesn’t mean your on the defensive.

For the record I don’t think it’s as bad as many seem to.

I’m referring more to the posters who for example support Dortmund but defend Bayern or vice versa. Along with Bayern making every bundesliga club their b*tch, it just comes across as a bit odd and somewhat incestuous from the outside looking in.

 

[The Corinthian]

German posters being 'super defensive' in a thread called "German football is turd". Bit odd

You're right, context matters. We have a FC Koln fan making a jab about Man Utd playing AC Milan in the Europa League, coming from a discussion about Man Utd previously beating RB Leipzig in the CL group stages.

I'd imagine it's similar to a West Brom fan having a dig at Borussia Dortmund after beating Tottenham or Everton. It would never happen. If anything, they'd be making the joke at the expense of Tottenham or Everton.

 

[JPRouve]

Calling a league turd doesn’t mean your on the defensive.

For the record I don’t think it’s as bad as many seem to.

I’m referring more to the posters who for example support Dortmund but defend Bayern or vice versa. Along with Bayern making every bundesliga club their b*tch, it just comes across as a bit odd and somewhat incestuous from the outside looking in.

It means that you are being disrepectful and childish which is why people that care about german football will be defensive. It's baffling that some fail to understand that.

 

[Lyricist]

The German team posters on this board are a very strange bunch.

Yeah super defensive... even of other Bundesliga teams they don’t support. Bit odd

What you guys are saying is exactly what is getting repeated over and over again every week.
Usually this takes place every time at the end of a discussion that starts like this:

1. PL fan realizing his favorite league is superior creates thread or post that has any of the following statements:

- When are we going to accept that German football is turd? The league is shit, the teams make Dortmund and Leipzig look good. The French league is stronger.​

- Bundesliga has no good players or exports outside of Lewandowski, Haaland, Fuchs, Pulisic, Okazaki [naming a few stupid ones here just to bring across how baseless and ill informed some of the statements look to Bundesliga followers]​

- All hype players like Hummels, Müller, Havertz, Boateng, Kagawa, Neuer, Götze, Draxler would be 50/50 on even being top 4 quality in the UK, but wouldn't be title winning quality​

- Arsenal would be second in the Bundesliga right now.​

- Just saw United/Liverpool batter Leipzig, German football is just so shit, it's incredible [check the budgets of the respective teams, why would the German teams ever be favorites in these match ups in the first place?]​

- 90% of X's first eleven [PL Team] would walk into any Bundesliga side's first eleven​

​

2. German fan is irritated by generalizing and quite often baseless statements that are just being thrown into an echo chamber of people that have no interest in Bundesliga. Thus that German fan attempts to give another look at the topic/post.​

- Sometimes sensible posts come out of this and get sensible responses​

- Sometimes the discussion just gets baseless and personal punches are being thrown thrown from both sides.​

- There's pretty much always that superiority and inferiority complex on both sides and it gets fueled further by people with no interest in the league (mostly random PL fans joining the discussion) posting ill informed statements (as they don't watch the league) as facts. Insert any of the statements from 1.​

​

3. Further posters see the last couple of posts of the discussion and draw any of the following conclusions​

- German fans seriously think Bundesliga is better?! They must be joking. [Don't think any Bundesliga fan said that on here.]​

- German fans are trying to create this weird echo chamber of promoting Bundesliga. Why are they even here? [Obviously there are many Germans that love football and many of them are looking for a good and sensible neutral international board where they can talk about football. Problem is, a large board like that in English doesn't exist. Redcafe is the best option and is obviously not fully neutral. But it's a great board.]​

- German fans all just support each other, what is wrong with them? Some of them even support their rivals in these discussions? [Again, posts like "All of German football outside Bayern is shit" after Leipzig play badly against Liverpool are just baseless and cause that superiority/inferiority complex on both sides.]​

- German fans are such a bitter and defensive bunch, they're probably the most irritating group of fans on these forums. [Maybe there's too many? Maybe Germans are particularly thin-skinned? Maybe too many PL fans like shitting on other leagues?]​

 

[Zehner]

I said it before, can't find my post, but Goretzka adds verstaility in that he adds an offensive threat, which Thiago never has. For retaining possession, Kimmich is good enough to retain it against the weaker opponents and against the top opponents you can sit deep and attack on the counter with guys like Goretzka. With Thiago, you have to play a fixed style by dominating possession as he doesn't seem suited to playing on the counter given his lack of energy going forward.

Retaining possession is not the be-all end-all of football, being able to play various styles should be, which was why Heynckes' Bayern were so great. Goretzka allows that.

Of course it's not the be all end all but if the opponent presses you and one of your midfielders keeps losing the ball then that's bad. Bayern presses their opponent's into their own third in a way that at some point it's only a matter of time until they score. However, in order to get there you need get into the area first and players like Thiago are absolutely key to it. It's not even so much about possession football, Klopp utilized such players as well in his Dortmund days with Götze and Gündogan and Zidane did as much with Kroos and Modric. Those teams were also very versatile. And Heynckes' team himself had Martinez, Schweinsteiger and Kroos - three very pressing resistant players.

Goretzka doesn't belong in this category. His greatest qualities are his own pressing and his runs into the box. That's fine if the opponent parks the bus and only presses in their own third. But if he isn't, you'll struggle in midfield with Goretzka. At least if you don't have players who can take over this role from him, like a Lahm or Cancelo type of full back drifting into the center when in possession. But right now, Bayern plays Süle or Pavard there and they also have Müller who's not particularly pressing resistant either.

 

[Lyricist]

Calling a league turd doesn’t mean your on the defensive.

For the record I don’t think it’s as bad as many seem to.

I’m referring more to the posters who for example support Dortmund but defend Bayern or vice versa. Along with Bayern making every bundesliga club their b*tch, it just comes across as a bit odd and somewhat incestuous from the outside looking in.

In other words, German fans hate each other just as much as British fans do. It's just that on here the discussions that trigger the different German fans are never about one team. They're really always about all of German football or about the entire league.

That's where German fans start talking about the pros of the league together which is where some people start considering that behavior "incestuous".

 

[RUCK4444]

It means that you are being disrepectful and childish which is why people that care about german football will be defensive. It's baffling that some fail to understand that.

I haven't said that though. I said I don't think it's that bad.

That said it's not exactly great either and the clubs relationship to Bayern are more than a little odd. Each to their own.

 

[Lyricist]

All in all it seems clear that this topic, due to its premise simply being of a trolling/insulting nature, will just get bumped every time after a German team loses in the CL. It will rest every time a German team wins in the CL.

 

[RUCK4444]

In other words, German fans hate each other just as much as British fans do. It's just that on here the discussions that trigger the different German fans are never about one team. They're really always about all of German football or about the entire league.

That's where German fans start talking about the pros of the league together which is where some people start considering that behavior "incestuous".

Yeah fair enough. I can see that to an extent.

However I remember some strange posts particularly in the Sancho transfer thread from fans who weren't even Dortmund supporters. I think that's what some are referring to and it's what I was referring to when I said the posters can be a bit odd.

 

[Lyricist]

I haven't said that though. I said I don't think it's that bad.

That said it's not exactly great either and the clubs relationship to Bayern are more than a little odd. Each to their own.

He didn't mean you. He means this entire topic. Hopefully we're not at the point now where with you another poster seems to have been taught in this topic that all of German fans are just baselessy crying in each other's arms because they can't accept the facts.

The actual point is though, that German fans are just trying to say that the league's quality is at least respectable. It's perhaps not at the standard of the PL. But it's not horrible. Lots of current tactical innovations stem from Bundesliga football. A German team just won the sextuple last season. The probably 2 most prolific goalscorers in Europe currently play in Germany. All 4 German teams made the CL knockouts once again.
No one is claiming that the Bundesliga is the best league or anything like that. But it's pretty evident that German football is not "turd" or generally bad. It might've been like that around the year 2004. It's doing quite fine now despite no outside investors being able to take over clubs (50+1 rule). If the 50+1 rule wasn't in place, perhaps these discussions here wouldn't play a role anymore.

 

[Lyricist]

Yeah fair enough. I can see that to an extent.

However I remember some strange posts particularly in the Sancho transfer thread from fans who weren't even Dortmund supporters. I think that's what some are referring to and it's what I was referring to when I said the posters can be a bit odd.

Yeah I can see how it was probably different in the Sancho transfer thread. That's definitely one topic where the inferiority/superiority complex of Bundesliga and PL fans led to 90% insults or annoying posts.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Honestly though, anyone who feels the need to engage with someone saying "you are turd" by answering "No I am not turd" is a lost cause, and gets more lost with every sentence they add

I mean, why would you even enter this kind of loaded situation. And then get labelled 'defensive' which is the ultimative communicative double-bind..


And also, German football is turd apart from Bayern.

 

[RUCK4444]

Yeah I can see how it was probably different in the Sancho transfer thread. That's definitely one topic where the inferiority/superiority complex of Bundesliga and PL fans led to 90% insults or annoying posts.

Yeah that's what I was referring to, to be honest. The title of this thread is over the top, should be changed really as it's only trying to gain a response.

Maybe recall it 'The level of quality in the Bundesliga' or something similar.

 

[JPRouve]

I haven't said that though. I said I don't think it's that bad.

That said it's not exactly great either and the clubs relationship to Bayern are more than a little odd. Each to their own.

I'm talking about the thread, when someone creates a thread and then label something as a turd, the people that care about that thing will rightfully be defensive. Now of course there are few german posters that have a high opinion of their understanding of the game but it's not true for all or even the majority.

Also there is this distasteful habit that some fans have to demean other players, leagues or countries.

 

[RUCK4444]

I'm talking about the thread, when someone creates a thread and then label something as a turd, the people that care about that thing will rightfully be defensive. Now of course there are few german posters that have a high opinion of their understanding of the game but it's not true for all or even the majority.

Also there is this distasteful habit that some fans have to demean other players, leagues or countries.

Yeah I've been guilty of calling the French league a farmers league as well. I'm not proud of myself JPR.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

When you're from a country with a genuinely dysfunctional and mediocre/shit league, it's always funny to see these debates from supporters of long entrenched top 4 league teams

"English/German football is shit this year, the standard is turd..we've only got 4 teams in the CL knockout rounds, two of those that are favourite to win it all. Only two teams left in the Europa semi-finals....

Sickening levels of oblivious privilege on display

 

[JPRouve]

When you're from a country with a genuinely dysfunctional and mediocre/shit league, it's always funny to see these debates from supporters of long entrenched top 4 league teams

"English/German football is shit this year, the standard is turd..we've only got 4 teams in the CL knockout rounds, two of those that are favourite to win it all. Only two teams left in the Europa semi-finals....

Sickening levels of oblivious privilege on display

It's crazy, it's as if some people never watched football outside of the top 4 leagues.

 

[Dancfc]

The ironic thing is Leipzig were only playing last night because the club in 2nd place in the Prem lost to the 16th place team in the Turkish League!

 

[taribhumpu]

The ironic thing is Liepzig were only playing last night because the club in 2nd place in the Prem lost to the 16th place team in the Turkish League!

And the same Liepzig got beaten on both legs (without even scoring a goal) to a team who is now having their worst season ever - just beaten few days ago by the relegation fodder.

 

[Idxomer]

The ironic thing is Liepzig were only playing last night because the club in 2nd place in the Prem lost to the 16th place team in the Turkish League!

Definitely the most embarrassing result for a team from a top league this season.

 

[SirMarcusRashford]

I think it's better than La Liga, but all leagues are 1 or 2 behind the Premier League.

La Liga is a mess right now, I'd say it's even fallen behind the French League, Spanish football have a lack of youth coming through and the likes of Barcelona/Madrid no money to even strengthen and all the leagues legends are in decline and coming to the end of their careers (Ramos/Messi/Pique/Busquets/Suarez/Modric).

I'd have it

Premier League (tier on it's own)
>
Serie A
Bundesliga
French League
La Liga

 

[Dancfc]

And the same Liepzig got beaten on both legs (without even scoring a goal) to a team who is now having their worst season ever - just beaten few days ago by the relegation fodder.

Point is you can make any league look bad citing one off games/ties.

Last year all four English entry's went out in embarrassing fashions, one of which to Leipzig themselves.

 

[Zehner]

I think it's better than La Liga, but all leagues are 1 or 2 behind the Premier League.

La Liga is a mess right now, I'd say it's even fallen behind the French League, Spanish football have a lack of youth coming through and the likes of Barcelona/Madrid no money to even strengthen and all the leagues legends are in decline and coming to the end of their careers (Ramos/Messi/Pique/Busquets/Suarez/Modric).

I'd have it

Premier League (tier on it's own)
>
Serie A
Bundesliga
French League
La Liga

Interesting take. In regards to form, I agree, but quality wise La Liga is still comfortably ahead of every league bar the EPL, in my opinion. Serie A is developing very well I think but Juventus (taking a look at the names in their line ups, you really wonder where all the quality has gone) has regressed significantly and the other teams haven't achieved the heights Turin maintained in the last 10 years or so. Madrid and Barca still have great teams on paper, though.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I think it's better than La Liga, but all leagues are 1 or 2 behind the Premier League.

La Liga is a mess right now, I'd say it's even fallen behind the French League, Spanish football have a lack of youth coming through and the likes of Barcelona/Madrid no money to even strengthen and all the leagues legends are in decline and coming to the end of their careers (Ramos/Messi/Pique/Busquets/Suarez/Modric).

I'd have it

Premier League (tier on it's own)
>
Serie A
Bundesliga
French League
La Liga

 

[SirMarcusRashford]

What’s so funny? I think it was a sarcastic laugh so what’s made you laugh? My views that the Premier League is way ahead of anyone else or that Serie A is now the 2nd best league in the world or La Liga is the true turd league, even being overtaken by the French league, which is becoming allround competitive and have some great talent coming through.

How about reply properly rather than posting laughing emojis and argue your case and i'll reply back telling 'why' i think what i do.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

What’s so funny? I think it was a sarcastic laugh so what’s made you laugh? My views that the Premier League is way ahead of anyone else or that Serie A is now the 2nd best league in the world or La Liga is the true turd league, even being overtaken by the French league, which is becoming allround competitive and have some great talent coming through.

How about reply properly rather than posting laughing emojis and argue your case and i'll reply back telling 'why' i think what i do.

I was laughing at Serie A/Ligue 1 and to a lesser extent the Bundesliga being above La Liga in your rankings.

Also your comment about the lack of talent coming through in Spanish football when you have Joao Felix, Frankie De Jong, Rodrygo, Dembele, Pedri, Ansu Fati, Valverde, Vinicus, Trincao, Dest, Moriba etc.