German football is turd

troylocker

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BL was actually ranked on the same level as La liga and PL last year. While Ligue 1 has been a couple of tiers behind the top 4 leagues the last 4 years.

Top 5 leagues in Europe:

#
country​
16/1717/1818/1919/2020/21rankingteams
1
Spain​
20.14219.71419.57118.9285.21483.5697/ 7
2
England​
14.92820.07122.64218.5715.92882.1407/ 7
3
Italy​
14.25017.33312.64214.9284.85764.0107/ 7
4
Germany​
14.5719.85715.21418.7144.78563.1416/ 7
5
France​
14.41611.50010.58311.6663.25051.4155/ 6
 

AltiUn

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Bayern played 0:0 and 1:1 against Leipzig last time they faced, so Leipzig has to be as good as them. However, Bayern won 7:2 against Tottenham last season. Tottenham beat United 6:1 recently, so Bayern has to be 21 times as good as United and since Leipzig is their equal, Leipzig also has to be 21 times as good as United.
You said 3 posts up you weren't going to bite and you bit anyway :nono:
 

AltiUn

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Name them? Because I seem to remember Leipzig having spanked Tottenham just last season.
I don't like defending Tottenham but they were decimated by injuries at that point. They had a front 3 of Lamela, Alli and Lucas in the 3-0.
 

romufc

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Let's be honest, the last 10 years not a single team could reach the Real, Barca or Bayern niveau.
City maybe for one year when they peaked or Liverpool since 1 year might be there but otherwise no.

I think not a single EPL team would have won a single Bundesliga or La Liga title within the last 10 years beside Liverpool last 2 seasons or maybe peak city.
The Bundesliga ist just shit because bayern is sooo much ahead of the rest.


A very important point for me: atmosphere wise it's the fecking best Top League in europe!
:lol::lol: So first you say not a single EPL would win but then say besides Liverpool and City.

Liverpool schooled Bayern at their home ground 2 seasons ago, the season where City won the league and Liverpool beat Bayern....
 

Zehner

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You said 3 posts up you weren't going to bite and you bit anyway :nono:
Thought it was a funny to point out the double standards, I'm sorry :nervous:
 

GameOn

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"The French league is stronger than the German league, at what point does this become universally accepted?"

What kind of nonsense is that?

Ligue 1 is way worse than the Bundesliga, you just have to look at the UEFA coefficients.

Really don't know why the OP felt like he needed to troll here, especially since the Bundesliga clearly outperformed the PL for at least half of the last decade (2012-2017).

I don't think anyone made a threat about "The PL is turd", when Leipzig spanked Tottenham twice last season.
 

united_99

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Bayern played 0:0 and 1:1 against Leipzig last time they faced, so Leipzig has to be as good as them. However, Bayern won 7:2 against Tottenham last season. Tottenham beat United 6:1 recently, so Bayern has to be 21 times as good as United and since Leipzig is their equal, Leipzig also has to be 21 times as good as United.
Not that I agree with the thread title, but what you are implying usually doesn’t work like that. Big clubs with experience in Europe usually manage to win their games in the CL even if they don’t win the same game in the league. The focus is different in the CL and they know they can’t make up lost points like in the league. Everyone knows that Bayern would in 99% win a CL encounter against Leipzig or even Dortmund even if they don’t manage to win those games in the league.
 

11101

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When are we going to accept this truth? Bayern are the best team in world football, let's be clear about that. Dortmund and Leipzig are ok. The rest of the league is shit and make Dortmund and Leipzig look good. The French league is stronger than the German league, at what point does this become universally accepted?
Maybe when it becomes true?

German football is pretty poor but the average is still better than Italian and French leagues. I'd say the drop from the top teams to the also rans is equal but in France and Italy the top teams are just one. Germany has a few that can hold their own.

This should also be the year England goes back above Spain in the coefficients.
 

TwoSheds

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"The French league is stronger than the German league, at what point does this become universally accepted?"

What kind of nonsense is that?

Ligue 1 is way worse than the Bundesliga, you just have to look at the UEFA coefficients.

Really don't know why the OP felt like he needed to troll here, especially since the Bundesliga clearly outperformed the PL for at least half of the last decade (2012-2017).

I don't think anyone made a threat about "The PL is turd", when Leipzig spanked Tottenham twice last season.
Maybe when it becomes true?

German football is pretty poor but the average is still better than Italian and French leagues. I'd say the drop from the top teams to the also rans is equal but in France and Italy the top teams are just one. Germany has a few that can hold their own.

This should also be the year England goes back above Spain in the coefficients.
UEFA coefficients! :lol:

Better than Italy! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Pretzels81

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Bundesliga was great, until 2013, that is.

I remember them '90s and '00s when Dortmund, Leverkusen, Bayern M., could defeat any Spanish, Italian and English side. It was a true Top3 with other strong sides like WB, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Schalke...

The Bundesliga has become a joke: a single juggernaut (Bayern M), laughable bottlers (Dortmund) and a friggin' Reb Bull plastic side (Leipzig).

When was the last time a Bundesliga side won the EL? When will a German club reach a UCL final other than Bayern?
 

GameOn

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UEFA coefficients! :lol:

Better than Italy! :lol: :lol: :lol:
So can you actually contribute anything substantial to your own thread (other than a ton of emoticons like some frustrated teenager) or can we just close it for uninspired trolling?

Outside of Bayern they certainly have some problems, but like @RedSky showed you, those teams are still miles ahead of the French teams for example.
Heck, Italy is dead even with the Bundesliga in terms of performances in the CL/EL, too.
 

GameOn

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Bundesliga was great, until 2013, that is.

I remember them '90s and '00s when Dortmund, Leverkusen, Bayern M., could defeat any Spanish, Italian and English side. It was a true Top3 with other strong sides like WB, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Schalke...

The Bundesliga has become a joke: a single juggernaut (Bayern M), laughable bottlers (Dortmund) and a friggin' Reb Bull plastic side (Leipzig).

When was the last time a Bundesliga side won the EL? When will a German club reach a UCL final other than Bayern?
Well, you can actually blame the Premier League for that.

In Germany they want to stay independent and close to their fans, which is why they don't allow any investors to completely take over a club (RB Leipzig as the one half-exception is absolutely loathed, while RB actually pays only a fraction of the money that Wolverhampton's sugar daddy pays for example).

Once nearly every single PL club got taken over by some oligarch/sugar daddy, Bayern used all of their influence/power to get as much money as possible from their TV earnings etc., in order to stay competitive in Europe.

That screwed the other Bundesliga clubs (save for maybe Dortmund) over.

You can't blame Bayern or the Bundesliga for that, though. If Bayern hadn't done that, no German team would've been able to really compete for CL titles.
 

JJ12

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There we go.

Definitely getting knocked out by a German team now.

Tidy.
 

JNicholas

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It’s a travesty that Berlin doesn’t have a better side.
I do believe Berlin are putting in a bit of investment now and should push for trophies in the next few years. I agree it is criminal that they are not a top side.
 

GameOn

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Would Wolfsburg be able to beat West Ham or whatever? I don't know. But this kind of worm-brained all or nothing thinking is just ridiculous. Why do people who think this way even enjoy football if they think that every league is shit, every team that isn't winning immediately in front of their eyes is overrated and every player who doesn't finish a game breaking several records is a bottler?
That's what I don't get either.

PL, LaLiga, Bundesliga, Serie A, Ligue1, Eredivisie etc., I for one enjoy every league I can watch without having to shit on any of those leagues, despite some being obviously a bit "better" than others.

Must be some kind of inferiority complex with those guys.
 

Paula

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:lol::lol: So first you say not a single EPL would win but then say besides Liverpool and City.
that's exactly what i wrote in one sentence.

3 seasons ago bayern and the city would have been toe to toe.
2 seasons ago bayern was shit and liverpool was superior to them
but before that i dont see any EPL team even close to them.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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After reading the OP i just get the image of twosheds as a fat, gammon faced Tory staggering out of the pub after tha game, fronting up and ranting to some confused passer by that looks vaguely German.
 

Blackwidow

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Not that I agree with the thread title, but what you are implying usually doesn’t work like that. Big clubs with experience in Europe usually manage to win their games in the CL even if they don’t win the same game in the league. The focus is different in the CL and they know they can’t make up lost points like in the league. Everyone knows that Bayern would in 99% win a CL encounter against Leipzig or even Dortmund even if they don’t manage to win those games in the league.
As a Bayern fan I always ask myself why the other German top teams usually do not play against us like they do in Europe...

Just to explain that: On the left how Leipzig played in Munich in February - on the right yesterday's match in Manchester... Look at the defensive line...
I guess Nagelsmann just overestimated the abilities of his team and underestimated the offensive power of Manchester yesterday...

 

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Why do people who think this way even enjoy football if they think that every league is shit, every team that isn't winning immediately in front of their eyes is overrated and every player who doesn't finish a game breaking several records is a bottler?
I think the answer is: a big part of football culture has little to do with enjoyment, but with venting real-life frustration and finding something to be angry or arrogant about.

Although I believe this thread is more about relishing in the joys of trolling.
 

amolbhatia50k

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As a Bayern fan I always ask myself why the other German top teams usually do not play against us like they do in Europe...

Just to explain that: On the left how Leipzig played in Munich in February - on the right yesterday's match in Manchester... Look at the defensive line...
I guess Nagelsmann just overestimated the abilities of his team and underestimated the offensive power of Manchester yesterday...

Good post. Seems they need to be more pragmatic and respect that other teams have serious attacking threats too.
 

romufc

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that's exactly what i wrote in one sentence.

3 seasons ago bayern and the city would have been toe to toe.
2 seasons ago bayern was shit and liverpool was superior to them
but before that i dont see any EPL team even close to them.
Right... that's why Bayern have got so far in the CL in the last 5 years?
 

roonster09

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As a Bayern fan I always ask myself why the other German top teams usually do not play against us like they do in Europe...

Just to explain that: On the left how Leipzig played in Munich in February - on the right yesterday's match in Manchester... Look at the defensive line...
I guess Nagelsmann just overestimated the abilities of his team and underestimated the offensive power of Manchester yesterday...

It also depends on opponents. Bayern play very high line and commit lot of players to attack, natural response from the opponent is to drop deep. ManUtd don't commit as many players and also don't push the line higher.
 

JPRouve

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The French league is much better than the German league outside of Bayern.
It's not much better but it's not actually that far, though people will argue against it.
 

Piratesoup

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Right... that's why Bayern have got so far in the CL in the last 5 years?
Knocked out in the SF by Atletico in 2016, then by eventual winners Real (QF 17, SF 18) and Liverpool (Round of 16, worst result since 2011). That's alright, I'd say. Overall 4 SF exits, 2 lost finals and two trophies since 2010.
 

marktan

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I think these sort of statements are pretty hard to quantity short of having one league face off against the other.

Are Bayern much better than the rest of the Bundesliga? Yes.
Would they struggle to win as many leagues if they played in the PL? Yes.
Does that automatically make the rest of the Bundesliga rubbish? No.

The PL is pretty top heavy but there's also a lot of average teams. The one thing it has is money, but that can be migitated by both tactics and smarter recruiting, as is often the case in France for example with a lot of excellent youth players.
 

GameOn

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Right... that's why Bayern have got so far in the CL in the last 5 years?
Ehm ... what?

They won the CL in 2020, got to the semis in 2015, 2016 and 2018, quarter-final in 2017 (where they got screwed over by the ref) and one outlier in 2019 (round of 16).

This past decade they won 2 CLs, went to the CL final 4 times and to the semi-final 8 times.

Bayern would've easily won the PL at least 6 or 7 times this past decade.
 

simonhch

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There are so many variables here that it's impossible to sum them all up and make an entirely coherent argument for either case. Clearly, the Bundesliga is not as strong as the Premier League, that is without question. But that doesn't make it a shit league. There have been some very interesting tactical innovations coming out of Germany, and in Bayern, they have produced the best side on the continent.

The reason it is spurious to use European competition performance as a reliable barometer of the relative strength of the league is that statistics can be easily swayed by the over performance of one or two sides. Look at Spain with Barca and Real Madrid, France with PSG, and Germany with Bayern. Leagues in which one or two clubs are supremely dominant, hoovering up all the domestic talent, and enjoying a free run at the top tier of foreign talent likely to come to their respective leagues. You also have to look at the undeniably more rigorous demands of the Premier League, week in and week out. It is so much harder for PL sides to rest key players consistently in the league without dropping points, because games are so much more competitive throughout the top tier, and that has a knock on effect for European performance. Fatigue is a vital factor, especially as seasons wear on. In top line sport the extra 1-2% makes all the difference in the world. We haven't even discussed the impact of a lack of a proper winter break on English teams, a factor which has undoubtedly hampered the national team for decades.

The difference between the top leagues is greatly exaggerated by all concerned, but of course there IS a difference. The landscape would look very different if Bayern, or Barca, or Real, had to grind their way through a full PL campaign, FA Cup, League Cup, and Europe, at a faster pace and with more physicality. But we'll never know how they would cope, and because of the myriad variables involved, these "relative strength" threads are - whilst fun - lacking in any meaningful quantitative data. Even the qualitative arguments can only ever be hypothetical as there is no real world mechanism for testing the hypothesis.

As a United fan I obviously miss the days of domestic domination, and European competitiveness. But as a football and premier league fan I think a more competitive league is better for everyone. Collective bargaining has proven the strength of the Premier League's appeal. Where I have an issue is in the sugar daddy/oil state funded clubs reshaping the financial landscape. It's resulted in a clumsy efforts to regulate and a distortion of the heritage and pedigree of our top tier. My hope would be the Premier League can further regulate it's competition to put in place spending or salary caps to further even the playing field and place more emphasis on sporting ingenuity rather than financial strength. This is a transition that United have struggled to make. Once the predominant financial powerhouse in domestic football, the influx of almost unlimited wealth to City and Chelsea (at various times), has placed a higher value on the importance of making strategically successful sporting decisions. To exacerbate this. the boom of TV rights to clubs across the entire top tier ( a success of collective bargaining) has meant top talents cannot be cherry picked from mid-table or relegation candidates. Liverpool have adapted to the new landscape incredibly well, and embraced a data driven response to the market (not surprising given their links to the Boston Red Sox), but I feel we have found it hard to move on from the "we can just buy better players than you" mentality, most infamously manifested by Eddie's "watch this space" speech.

United still wield considerable financial clout no doubt, but it is only with a coupling of a robust and data driven strategic sporting plan that we can recreate the glories of yesteryear. I know that Solksjaer has taken his flack from fans, and he seems to alternate between being the bees knees and public enemy number one, depending on the latest result; but what struck me most about his appointment was that early on I read several pieces talking about him presenting his ideas not just of what the team would look like in the current season, but what the shape of the team would look like in the next 3-5 seasons. And that's the sort of desperately important thinking that has been lacking ta this club. Success is rarely instanteous, and when it is, it is rarely sustainable. The most reliable pathway to success is building a coherent long term plan aimed at having a constantly evolving competitive advantage. That competitive advantage used to be as simple as having more financial clout than anyone else, and the greatest manager in the history of British Football. Our approach now, by necessity, has to be much more nuanced, much more intelligent, and have continuity regardless of changes in managerial personnel. I don't think many of us have a great deal of hope that this strategic vision is seen or embrace by current executive leadership, yet perhaps the financial implications of the pandemic - coupled with the painful lessons of the last seven years - will finally drive a change of strategic thinking.

I may have gone a little off topic.
 
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Untd55

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They need an oil club. I know people say it is bad, but it does help competition. Without the existence of an oil club, no team in the league can compete with Bayern Munich's financial power. With Bayern able to scoop up every player they want in the league, many teams can't build/sustain their success.

There was a period in the 2000s that if City and Chelsea were not bought out, we would have likely won 8 Premier League titles in a row. People might think that is good, but I think it would get boring winning so many times in a row.
 

giorno

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Knocked out in the SF by Atletico in 2016, then by eventual winners Real (QF 17, SF 18) and Liverpool (Round of 16, worst result since 2011). That's alright, I'd say. Overall 4 SF exits, 2 lost finals and two trophies since 2010.
Was thinking about this and since '10 you made 4 finals('10, '12, '13, '20), 4 SF ('14, '15, '16, '18), 1 QF ('17) and two R16('11, '19). Two wins. 7 times beaten by the winners

It's genuinely one of the most impressive runs ever seen in terms of consistency. Basically every year for an entire decade you could bank on Bayern being one of the 3 or 4 best sides in the world
 

El Zoido

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This thread won't end well.
Not really, if we lose to Leipzig in the away fixture, or if we get spanked by Bayern or Dortmund in the knockout stages, doesn’t change the fact that the rest of the league is of poor quality.