Germany - Euro 2021 discussion

Blackwidow

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Just wanted to open that thread as it probably will get opened somewhen anyways.

Squad:


No.NameDay of Birth (Day/Month/Year)ClubCupsGoals
12Bernd Leno04.03.1992FC Arsenal80
1Manuel Neuer27.03.1986Bayern München990
22Kevin Trapp08.07.1990Eintracht Frankfurt50
4Matthias Ginter19.01.1994Borussia Mönchengladbach392
20Robin Gosens05.07.1994Atalanta Bergamo60
26Christian Günter28.02.1993SC Freiburg20
3Marcel Halstenberg27.09.1991RB Leipzig81
5Mats Hummels16.12.1988Borussia Dortmund715
16Lukas Klostermann03.06.1996RB Leipzig130
24Robin Koch17.07.1996Leeds United80
2Antonio Rüdiger03.03.1993FC Chelsea401
15Niklas Süle03.09.1995Bayern München301
23Emre Can12.01.1994Borussia Dortmund331
10Serge Gnabry14.07.1995Bayern München2115
18Leon Goretzka06.02.1995Bayern München3213
21İlkay Gündoğan24.10.1990Manchester City4510
7Kai Havertz11.06.1999FC Chelsea133
13Jonas Hofmann14.07.1992Borussia Mönchengladbach30
6Joshua Kimmich08.02.1995Bayern München543
8Toni Kroos04.01.1990Real Madrid10117
25Thomas Müller13.09.1989Bayern München10138
14Jamal Musiala26.02.2003Bayern München20
17Florian Neuhaus16.03.1997Borussia Mönchengladbach62
19Leroy Sané11.01.1996Bayern München296
9Kevin Volland30.07.1992AS Monaco111
11Timo Werner06.03.1996FC Chelsea3815

Schedule to the tournament:

Trainings camp in Seefeld/Tyrol from May 28th to June 6th
Match in Innsbruck against Denmark on June 2nd (1:1)
Match in Düsseldorf against Latvia on June 7th
Trainings camp "Home Ground" in Herzogenaurach in new buildings/and for this purpose build special area (planned from the German FA) on the Adidas grounds for the tournament and that Adidas will use for their purposes afterwards



On the right small houses that will house players in small groups of four players (or staff members) - in the middle the pool and "market place"-area. There is all kind of training possibilities on the Adidas ground, soccer pitches etc.
 

Boavista

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There's not a lot of optimism around the German team which is understandable given their performances going back to the last world cup. All things considered though it's a strong squad and I think they could be good for a surprise. But that would require Löw to figure out how to use that squad, which he doesn't seem to be able to.

To be fair it's not an easy feat, as there are so many options and each with significant trade offs. The most straight forward choice would probably be to simply imitate Bayern but I don't think Löw's ego would let him do that. That would also mean dropping Gündogan and Kroos, which I can't see happen. At least on paper a midfield of Kimmich, Goretzka and Gündogan in a 4-3-3 looks pretty strong:

--------------------------------------------------Neuer-------------------------------------------------------

Klostermann------------Hummels----------------Rüdiger----------------Günter/Gosens

------------------------------------------------Kimmich----------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------Goretzka----------------Gündogan----------------------------------

Sane/Gnabry---------------------Volland/Havertz-----------------------Gnabry/Werner

I doubt that will happen, but that doesn't look too bad I think. Not the best pair of fullbacks but they're decent enough. Volland and Havertz aren't conventional number 9s but Goretzka and Gündogan know how to score, and so does Gnabry. Perhaps even Werner might remember how to score.

What's everyone's preferred lineup?

Ignoring the result, how did Germany play against Denmark?
 
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roonster09

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Is this the worst German team 'on Paper' in last 10-12 years?
 

Blackwidow

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There's not a lot of optimism around the German team which is understandable given their performances going back to the last world cup. All things considered though it's a strong squad and I think they could be good for a surprise. But that would require Löw to figure out how to use that squad, which he doesn't seem to be able to.

To be fair it's not an easy feat, as there are so many options and each with significant trade offs. The most straight forward choice would probably be to simply imitate Bayern but I don't think Löw's ego would let him do that. That would also mean dropping Gündogan and Kroos, which I can't see happen. At least on paper a midfield of Kimmich, Goretzka and Gündogan in a 4-3-3 looks pretty strong:

--------------------------------------------------Neuer-------------------------------------------------------

Klostermann------------Hummels----------------Rüdiger----------------Günter/Gosens

------------------------------------------------Kimmich----------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------Goretzka----------------Gündogan----------------------------------

Sane/Gnabry---------------------Volland/Havertz-----------------------Gnabry/Werner

I doubt that will happen, but that doesn't look too bad I think. Not the best pair of fullbacks but they're decent enough. Volland and Havertz aren't conventional number 9s but Goretzka and Gündogan know how to score, and so does Gnabry. Perhaps even Werner might remember how to score.

What's everyone's preferred lineup?

Ignoring the result, how did Germany play against Denmark?
You left the best German offensive player of the last 2 years out of the lineup. Why? Löw did not get Müller back to let him be on the bench but to both rule the offense as well as the pressing in the way he did that at Bayern since Flick arrived.

Havertz until now did not play a big role for the national team - and Werner lost his starting place some time ago.

My favourite lineup would be a 4-2-3-1 with the Bayern midfield and with Havertz or Volland as no. 9 and Gnabry and Sane on the wing - but I doubt that will happen either as their is Kroos, too, who has a set place with Löw. And Löw recently likes a lineup with 3 in the back. Against Denmark the pressing already was pretty good and they kept Denmark to one shot on goal - but that was in and only one from Germany.

Is this the worst German team 'on Paper' in last 10-12 years?
Why? Several world champions that actually had good years. 12 players that won the CL in the last 2 seasons etc.
I actually do not think that the squad of 2014 was really better than this. But it all depends on the tactics, team chemistry and how the competition runs...
 

BusbyMalone

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I thought that was a good Germany team on paper, personally!

There doesn't seem to be a lot fo optimism. Why is that? The manager has been there for quite some time, so perhaps that's it? A little bit stale.
 

roonster09

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Why? Several world champions that actually had good years. 12 players that won the CL in the last 2 seasons etc.
I actually do not think that the squad of 2014 was really better than this. But it all depends on the tactics, team chemistry and how the competition runs...
I thought that squad was better. So many players were at their peak or were playing at awesome level at that time.
Neuer,
Hummers
Khedira
Bastian
Ozil
Klose
Muller
Lahm
Kroos
Gotze
Boateng

Germany have good squad (like they always go) but I thought this was poor compared to their previous squads.

Anyways like you said, it's the tactics, team chemistry and how they play on that day that counts.
 

izec

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Depends on how they do in the group, but Germany is always one of the favourites. If they perform strongly from the start, i wouldn't rule them out at all to win it. But i think Löw is just not good enough ultimately.
 

unplayable

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I didn't say it's bad, I said comparing to their previous squad, is this the worst they had in last 10-12 years.
I personally don't think so. The midfield options are the best in the world for example. Sure there are some weaknesses like full backs or lack of a proper goalscorer, but I'm confident we have a chance to win the tournament if the team is fully focused.
 

roonster09

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I personally don't think so. The midfield options are the best in the world for example. Sure there are some weaknesses like full backs or lack of a proper goalscorer, but I'm confident we have a chance to win the tournament if the team is fully focused.
Germany will always have chance to win tournament, I'm not saying it's a poor squad.

Like you said, FBs and striker options are average compared to what they had. Agree with the midfield part, it's very good.
 

GhastlyHun

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Our weakest position is definitely the fullbacks, although Gosens might be(come) a decent one.
With that and our surplus of midfielders in mind, it could even be an option to put Kimmich back at RB, although this would weaken our midfield. If Löw plays Kroos (and it's to be feared that that will be his preference), Kimmich needs to be there to plug all the Kroos-shaped holes.
Our preferred lineup should be a 4-2-3-1 for the best balance of defense and attack, but i fear Jogi will stick to his 3/5 at the back thing, which starves our attack.

The most straightfotward lineup would be

Neuer*

Ginter (/Süle) - Hummels*/Rüdiger - Rüdiger*/Süle - Gosens*

Kimmich* - Goretzka*/Hofmann/Can/Neuhaus/Kroos

Müller*/Havertz/Gündogan

Gnabry* - Volland/Havertz (/Werner) - Sané/Werner​

* Indicates set starters either due to their qualities or lack of alternatives.
 
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Boavista

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You left the best German offensive player of the last 2 years out of the lineup. Why? Löw did not get Müller back to let him be on the bench but to both rule the offense as well as the pressing in the way he did that at Bayern since Flick arrived.

Havertz until now did not play a big role for the national team - and Werner lost his starting place some time ago.

My favourite lineup would be a 4-2-3-1 with the Bayern midfield and with Havertz or Volland as no. 9 and Gnabry and Sane on the wing - but I doubt that will happen either as their is Kroos, too, who has a set place with Löw. And Löw recently likes a lineup with 3 in the back. Against Denmark the pressing already was pretty good and they kept Denmark to one shot on goal - but that was in and only one from Germany.



Why? Several world champions that actually had good years. 12 players that won the CL in the last 2 seasons etc.
I actually do not think that the squad of 2014 was really better than this. But it all depends on the tactics, team chemistry and how the competition runs...
I agree that ideally Müller should be playing. Like you I think the Bayern midfield plus Havertz or Volland up front is probably Germany's strongest eleven, but I just don't think Löw will go for that. Going by his lineups in recent years it definitely seems like he wants to implement a system that is "his" rather than fall back on the squad's dominant club football tactics.

So in a way the eleven I posted might not be the strongest but to me it looks very balanced and I could see it doing well. I thought about how to include Müller but I always ended up back at the Bayern formation. It's quite likely Löw will try a 3 at the back formation, and it's definitely possible to play Müller in there. Either behind two forwards or more as a sort of false nine dropping behind when the wingers like Gnabry move up top. I didn't watch the match but isn't that basically how they lined up against Denmark? I'm not sure whether that would be the best solution either because it might hinder wing play. Also that might mean having to adjust the midfield options behind Müller, again possibly resulting in a Bayern midfield which Löw might be reluctant to use because any success wouldn't be as much to his own credit.

And then of course there's the question whether he might play Kimmich at right back.. especially because there are many midfield alternatives. Although not really in that DM position. Chances are Löw will overcomplicate everything in an effort to play certain players.

I thought that squad was better. So many players were at their peak or were playing at awesome level at that time.
Neuer,
Hummers
Khedira
Bastian
Ozil
Klose
Muller
Lahm
Kroos
Gotze
Boateng

Germany have good squad (like they always go) but I thought this was poor compared to their previous squads.

Anyways like you said, it's the tactics, team chemistry and how they play on that day that counts.
I don't think the squad quality is significantly different. However the options were much more straightforward back then, so the starting eleven almost could have picked itself in most positions. Although Lahm played at DM at the beginning, and Müller as a number 9 for instance.

It seems the current abundance of players in midfield, who should be playing given how good they are, is almost detrimental to the team balance.. In a way the best players in 2014 complemented each other better than the best players of this squad do. And that leads to more difficult decisions in team selection, but that shouldn't be an insurmountable challenge for a good coach.
 

do.ob

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Our weakest position is definitely the fullbacks, although Gosens might be(come) a decent one.
With that and our surplus of midfielders in mind, it could even be an option to put Kimmich back at RB, although this would weaken our midfield. If Löw plays Kroos (and it's to be feared that that will be his preference), Kimmich needs to be there to plug all the Kroos-shaped holes.
Our preferred lineup should be a 4-2-3-1 for the best balance of defense and attack, but i fear Jogi will stick to his 3/5 at the back thing, which starves our attack.

The most straightfotward lineup would be

Neuer*

Ginter (/Süle) - Hummels*/Rüdiger - Rüdiger*/Süle - Gosens*

Kimmich* - Goretzka*/Hofmann/Can/Neuhaus

Müller*/Havertz/Gündogan

Gnabry* - Volland/Havertz (/Werner) - Sané/Werner

* Indicates set starters either due to their qualities or lack of alternatives.
I said this in the other thread a while back, Kimmich has to play in midfield, because there is no replacement for him in the entire squad. Dahoud, even if he's not on the same level individually as the others, has the perfect profile for this team. But somehow Löw invites him when he's irrelevant at Dortmund and then can't fit him into his extended squad after he's had the best couple of months of his career.


Kicker did a fan voting, which resulted in: Neuer - Ginter, Hummels, Rüdiger, Gosens - Goretzka, Kimmich, Gündogan - Gnabry, Müller Sane and aside from Ginter and with the hopeful assumption that the front three will work out, this looks by far like the most reasonable choice.

But then it's Löw, so Kroos has to play, Werner will probably get to feck up a game or two as well.
 

GhastlyHun

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I said this in the other thread a while back, Kimmich has to play in midfield, because there is no replacement for him in the entire squad. Dahoud, even if he's not on the same level individually as the others, has the perfect profile for this team. But somehow Löw invites him when he's irrelevant at Dortmund and then can't fit him into his extended squad after he's had the best couple of months of his career.


Kicker did a fan voting, which resulted in: Neuer - Ginter, Hummels, Rüdiger, Gosens - Goretzka, Kimmich, Gündogan - Gnabry, Müller Sane and aside from Ginter and with the hopeful assumption that the front three will work out, this looks by far like the most reasonable choice.

But then it's Löw, so Kroos has to play, Werner will probably get to feck up a game or two as well.
It's pretty reasonable with the one major flaw of playing Müller as CF. It's the absolutely worst idea to put him there, I'd even prefer a Müller-less lineup over having to watch that once more.
Also I see uses for Werner, maybe even at CF. A frontline of Gnabry/Werner/Sané can run any opponent dizzy, we just need to make sure that Werner is not the recipient of the final ball.
 

Tallis

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To me, that looks like a strong team on paper except for maybe the defense which is good but not WC like France. That midfield is crazy strong (on paper) and the attacker have enough class about them.

Can they find the chemistry ? Good German teams can play at a higher level than the sum of the parts but I do think they should have hired a new manager after the WC.
 

do.ob

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It's pretty reasonable with the one major flaw of playing Müller as CF. It's the absolutely worst idea to put him there, I'd even prefer a Müller-less lineup over having to watch that once more.
Also I see uses for Werner, maybe even at CF. A frontline of Gnabry/Werner/Sané can run any opponent dizzy, we just need to make sure that Werner is not the recipient of the final ball.
Maybe I'm being too harsh on him, but I have the feeling that between that song about his mother and half the internet ridiculing him for his misses people are going way too far into the other direction, bigging up secondary or tertiary qualities as if they compensate for his pathetic finishing. We're still Germany and this is a major tournament. He should figure out his mental block on his own time.
 

izec

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Surely you gotta be kidding me. Most of these players just won the Champions League recently.
Hansi Flick will make them challenge again next year. Team is still good, even if not excellent, but still possible to win trophies with a good manager and Flick will challenge with them.
 

Sean_RedDevil

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Our weakest position is definitely the fullbacks, although Gosens might be(come) a decent one.
With that and our surplus of midfielders in mind, it could even be an option to put Kimmich back at RB, although this would weaken our midfield. If Löw plays Kroos (and it's to be feared that that will be his preference), Kimmich needs to be there to plug all the Kroos-shaped holes.
Our preferred lineup should be a 4-2-3-1 for the best balance of defense and attack, but i fear Jogi will stick to his 3/5 at the back thing, which starves our attack.

The most straightfotward lineup would be

Neuer*

Ginter (/Süle) - Hummels*/Rüdiger - Rüdiger*/Süle - Gosens*

Kimmich* - Goretzka*/Hofmann/Can/Neuhaus/Kroos

Müller*/Havertz/Gündogan

Gnabry* - Volland/Havertz (/Werner) - Sané/Werner​

* Indicates set starters either due to their qualities or lack of alternatives.
Kimmich will never play as RB or wing-back in his career.
 

Blackwidow

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It's pretty reasonable with the one major flaw of playing Müller as CF. It's the absolutely worst idea to put him there, I'd even prefer a Müller-less lineup over having to watch that once more.
Also I see uses for Werner, maybe even at CF. A frontline of Gnabry/Werner/Sané can run any opponent dizzy, we just need to make sure that Werner is not the recipient of the final ball.
Müller for sure has better positions than as CF... but it is more the way you play him as it is about the position. If he is able to play it his way, if others like Gnabry go into the CF position, too - like he does with Lewy or did with Klose - it can work very well.

And it is not just about his assists this season, he actually scored 11 goals from 51 shots and converted more than 60 % of his big chances.

The question with Müller is not the position but the way he is played and how much he can have his freedom to use his strengths and not show his weaknesses. And then he even is the best CF solution, especially in addition to his abilities to lead pressing and offense.
 

GhastlyHun

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Müller for sure has better positions than as CF... but it is more the way you play him as it is about the position. If he is able to play it his way, if others like Gnabry go into the CF position, too - like he does with Lewy or did with Klose - it can work very well.

And it is not just about his assists this season, he actually scored 11 goals from 51 shots and converted more than 60 % of his big chances.

The question with Müller is not the position but the way he is played and how much he can have his freedom to use his strengths and not show his weaknesses. And then he even is the best CF solution, especially in addition to his abilities to lead pressing and offense.
The Denmark game did not instill confidence that a frontline with Müller as nominal CF will be effective. But of course we also played that 5 defenders bullshit which I already criticized above.
Adjustments are needed in any case, and I'm less than hopeful that Löw will go through with them.
 

GhastlyHun

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I guess we're nailed on now to win the whole thing: Mou thinks we will go out in the group stage. :D
 

Tucholsky

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Still pretty unsure what to expect from Germany at this Euro.

My main concerns are:
Team unity and cohesion. Traditionally teams need a high degree of unity and team cohesion to do well at international tournaments. First reports out of the camp are pretty good and I hope, that the fiasco of Russia 2018 is not repeated.
Defensive organisation. Against stronger opponents I would prefer a 5 man defensive unit. I don't think that due to our wingback problems (or mediocrity) that a traditional four man line suffices.
But probably that is needed when the team is behind a goal.
In this case I would love to see a formation with Kimmich at right back, because I think this would strenghten the defense and give a boost to the right side of the offense. But I doubt, that Goretzka and Gündogan can strike the right balance in defensive/central midfield
(I miss the days of Khedira and Schweinsteiger, who were able to complement each other rather well, especially cause Schweisteiger was willing to reign in his offensive instincts for the greater good).
Preferred line ups:
5-4-1:
-------------------------------- Müller---------------------------------------
----Havertz----------------------------------------------Gnabry------
-----------------Kimmich - Goretzka/Gündogan----------
Goosens - Hummels - Rüdiger - Süle - Klostermann
-----------------------------------Neuer------------------------------------

4-4-2:
----------------------- Werner-------------------------
Gnabry --------------Havertz-----------Mülller
-----------------Goretzka - Gündogan----------
Goosens - Hummels-Rüdiger-Kimmich
---------------------------Neuer-----------------------
 
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Acrobat7

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If you have to play Kimmich at RB then go:

Neuer
Kimmich Rüdiger Hummels Gosens
Kroos Goretza
Sané Müller Gnabry
Volland (or Havertz)
 

do.ob

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I mean the article starts out poorly, by saying Schweinsteiger was missing from the 2016 Euros and attributing a penalty to Boateng, which - sweet irony - was caused by Schweinsteiger. I'm also pretty sure that in 2018 the 11 players he put into his lineup were actually never on the pitch all together.

And it doesn't get much better afterwards:
  • He gives Can/Ginter as the third CB options ("expect to see Can"), when for the two final tests it was Ginter and Süle, with Can being subbed into a midfield role.
  • He gives Halstenberg as a RB.
  • "It does however leave them without a natural defensive midfielder" Is a questionable thing to say about Kimmich.
  • He gives Can as a serious LB alternative, an ambitious statement, given that Löw has nominated three potential left backs (though to be fair he thinks one of them is a RB and another one a CB).
  • Halstenberg and Klostermann are being labeled as wingbacks (under the headline "attacking fullbacks") and "Germany will be found wanting defensively in a 4-3-3", when in reality they have actually been playing a lot at CB for Leipzig and are potential issues in a wingback role, because they aren't good enough going forward.
  • Christian Günter appears to be seen as a center back.
  • Reducing Kroos vs Kimmich to a bunch of passing stats.
  • "Kevin Volland [...] is going to be the target man that this Germany side desperately need if Havertz is injured and they need a plan C"
 
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GhastlyHun

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Goretzka will not be fit for the opening match. Our chances to get out of this group are not improved by this.
 

Ish

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-----------------------------Neuer

Kimmich---Hummels---Rudiger----Goosens

-----------------------------Kroos

--------------------Goretzka-----Gundogan

----Gnaby-------------------Havertz---------------Werner

Not really sure what formation Germany plays these days but that's not a bad starting XI. There's a few who might start, like *Muller, Sule, Sane etc. and Kimmich is probably best in midfield for them, but I think those 3 mids listed are good enough, which allows Kimmich to strengthen their fullback position(s), which they are fairly weak in. Havertz or Muller can play a false 9 position as they'd be surrounded by 2 goalscoring wide forwards (Gnaby and Werner).
 

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Germany is just looking like they are set to flop IMO. So many quality players who you can't leave out that it's a problem, but also not the right players to compliment each other. Kimmich you almost want to use at right back because of how weak the fullbacks are, but who will be the holding midfielder? Muller is best as a #10 by far and will surely start, but who is the #9? Sane and Gnabry are good choices to be either side of Muller but the problem lies in the back 4 and the midfield 2 for me. How do you strike a balance if you pick either Kroos or Gundogan as part of the midfield duo? Kimmich and Goretzka easily give the most balance, but then you have awful fullbacks (and how do you leave out Kroos or Gundogan?). Basically, I don't see a balanced solution for them if they start Kroos.