Ok you mentalist, tell me where and when i said sack Ole?
Get behind the manager and club
- Thread starter Nou_Camp99
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Easier to push him out the door from behind so yes, let's get behind the manager.
Wait, you didn't spot that the post wasn't serious?I take it you consider yourself part of the latter?
How. . . millennial [trigger warning], what a self important fanbase we have.
And to answer your question I don't think about myself when it comes to fandom, I don't really care about these things.
I love how ‘Top Reds’ insist you have to back the manager when it’s pretty obvious he’s not up to it.
I was wavering last season but scraping into the top 4 papered over the cracks. But last season we were just as poor as we were good at times. This season has just largely been poor.
We play like the away team in every game and try and hit on the break - we are as predicable a team as they come. Ole has not improved us despite spending a fortune on players.
I was wavering last season but scraping into the top 4 papered over the cracks. But last season we were just as poor as we were good at times. This season has just largely been poor.
We play like the away team in every game and try and hit on the break - we are as predicable a team as they come. Ole has not improved us despite spending a fortune on players.
Touché.
Nope. I prefer to use my brain, independent thought and eyes to see we're getting nowhere. Sack him while we can still make top 4.
I don’t understand why some people treat OGS as some type of managerial novice like he’s been around as long as Arteta or Lampard. Let’s not forget his managerial career is give or take the same length of time as Guardiola. Both guys got their starts at the youth level of the teams they’re closely associated with. Guardiola got a lucky head start being at the right place at the right time in 2008. Solskjaer unfortunately had the arguably GOAT of football managers above him so that wasnt happening but plenty of time has passed now to see how good they are, and its sadly laughable to even compare them.
Ive said this before but I don’t think OGS has the right mentality to be a ruthless, top class football manager. After Cardiff, he went back to his native Molde team when he could have surely put his name out all over Europe and get picked up by someone better than back to the Norwegian league? Is it because he just likes being the manager of his favourite clubs and likes the status of being the top dog of them? And rather than being a nasty bastard like the majority of successful managers are (SAF included), he’s just going to be middle of the road, non-confrontational, everyone’s my mate and just go out there and play like your 10 years old again with jumpers for goalposts.
Top managers are risk takers and will jump on opportunities even if it means leaving their comfort zone. OGS seemingly didnt really want to leave his comfort zone of Molde until Utd called one morning two years ago and won the lottery of chance, similar to how Guardiola did in 2008. OGS took one step out of the comfort zone when joining Cardiff, failed and retreated back to said comfort zone... maybe realising that level of football management is beyond him.
Ive said this before but I don’t think OGS has the right mentality to be a ruthless, top class football manager. After Cardiff, he went back to his native Molde team when he could have surely put his name out all over Europe and get picked up by someone better than back to the Norwegian league? Is it because he just likes being the manager of his favourite clubs and likes the status of being the top dog of them? And rather than being a nasty bastard like the majority of successful managers are (SAF included), he’s just going to be middle of the road, non-confrontational, everyone’s my mate and just go out there and play like your 10 years old again with jumpers for goalposts.
Top managers are risk takers and will jump on opportunities even if it means leaving their comfort zone. OGS seemingly didnt really want to leave his comfort zone of Molde until Utd called one morning two years ago and won the lottery of chance, similar to how Guardiola did in 2008. OGS took one step out of the comfort zone when joining Cardiff, failed and retreated back to said comfort zone... maybe realising that level of football management is beyond him.
At the rate we're going now we'll end up on 61 points (subject to a math check by another poster).
We ended last season on 66 points, which got us to third place. It's fair to say that while City have dropped a level this season that Spurs and Chelsea have significantly improved. We had just as much an opportunity as Spurs and Chelsea to strengthen the squad and improve the cohesion of play within the squad that we already have, but there is no evidence that we did either. We can point to VdB as a squad improvement, but we really can't say that Donny has even been given a chance to perform at a high level, or any kind of level other than during cameo minutes in garbage time.
Of course we all should get behind the manager, but the manager has to do his part to support club supporters by improving his performance as manager. If we're still dropping stupid points in December we may need to re-evaluate whether his services are still required.
We ended last season on 66 points, which got us to third place. It's fair to say that while City have dropped a level this season that Spurs and Chelsea have significantly improved. We had just as much an opportunity as Spurs and Chelsea to strengthen the squad and improve the cohesion of play within the squad that we already have, but there is no evidence that we did either. We can point to VdB as a squad improvement, but we really can't say that Donny has even been given a chance to perform at a high level, or any kind of level other than during cameo minutes in garbage time.
Of course we all should get behind the manager, but the manager has to do his part to support club supporters by improving his performance as manager. If we're still dropping stupid points in December we may need to re-evaluate whether his services are still required.
Standards have fallen down the toilet this season.
Some would say they are behind the club hence why they are not behind the manager because they feel it would benefit the club if he was replaced. Not my opinion just my thinking
I've seen plenty of Spurs this season. They are not playing particularly well at all. Id be surprised if they were still near the top of the table after 25 games.
I bet the finish well above United.
If I knew you I'd take that bet in a heartbeat
What you're seeing is typical Mourinho dour tactics, but they're incredibly effective -- at least for now. Spurs just beat a decent (not great) City side 2-0 in a borefest, but it was a beautiful borefest from the POV of a Spurs fan. It's not enjoyable to watch, but a club like Spurs need a trophy much more than they need scintillating football.
Spurs are playing well within the narrow confines of what they have set out to do. We are not.
Both sides of the argument are tiresome. For some Ole is bigger than the club and never accountable for anything, for others everything he does is shit. To me he's a mediocre manager, not bad but not good either. If he makes top 4 he stays, not then adios.
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Are we back to this? Mindless loyalty against the evidence of your own eyes?
A business analyst at Glazer HQ would say that Manchester United is merely a product, just like Coca Cola or Anusol or Marmite. The big difference is that it enjoys insane levels of brand loyalty, such that the seller can devalue the product dramatically without reducing demand. And it therefore makes economic sense to do just that. That's where we are and it's the stupidity of the ultra-loyalists that makes it all possible.
To put it plainly - if Coke execs pissed in a red tin, you wouldn't pay to drink it. Why do you pay for this?
Where's this back your manager during moyes year? Jose? Lvg?
If his name isn't ole he'll be hounded out faster than you can spell top red.
I get it he's a legend and all that. Be a man and say your like him and cut him more slack than you cut anyone else, fair play. Dont go in here claiming he's better than poch and as good as klopp and how he's building a masterpiece, making excuses and moving the goal post every week.
If his name isn't ole he'll be hounded out faster than you can spell top red.
I get it he's a legend and all that. Be a man and say your like him and cut him more slack than you cut anyone else, fair play. Dont go in here claiming he's better than poch and as good as klopp and how he's building a masterpiece, making excuses and moving the goal post every week.
It happened then too. People will cling on to the hope that our manager is good enough relying on every false dawn until it becomes evident that they have to go.
We have a long term planning, many many things are happening on and off the field. You don’t seem to have any idea so move along. In term of game principles and in term of players, we have made progress in the direction this club should strive, which is excellence and winning mentality. The more we continue on that path, the better and longer our positive outcome will be. And it’s because of that long term goal that we are trying to go through that time.
He plays exactly the same way as we do under Ole. Again, the difference is that you have an utterly useless league that allows you to win without too much difficulty. But compare both teams on how they want to play and it’s the same. The difference is on the opposition and the current players at the disposal.
Which means that we have to look for the right players while moving forward, and build things piece by piece so that we can find consistency. I say that because under Ole, our ceiling is now much higher, we have proven that in many big games. Our struggle is to find players who can minimize our lack of form, and keep winning.
It takes time for that, but before they reach that, Klopp has chanced a tons of personal. And Ole is doing that. Finally, with Butt, they have forced the 4/2/3/1 as the team structure for all youth teams so that youngsters can come on the first team and not get lost tactically. Those teams Jose didn’t care at all, and LVG only looked into when he had injury crises. Ole, he is shaping the club for consistent success from the youth rank, to address exactly the issue you are talking about. So what’s the complain?
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Any idea of when we're actually going to see evidence of that?
But there’s a problem with that: we are trying to adapt too much to players and not enough to a consistent style. Which creates confusion. Ole is very adaptive. In a way, it has saved us as we went through injuries and low form but in another way, it’s creating a lot of volatility in the mind of the players. We are now a team that can play multiple setups, but still, it’s an issue. This is discussed here for example. So in short, we need the right players for the long term system.
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Starting Jan 2020, we have a strike of winning records against all type of teams. It’s our second spell of winning strikes with Ole, it means that over half a season now we can be consistently winning points. We did the same under the first spell as well. Now the issue last season was the first half. We couldn’t win enough, but we now know it’s because neither of our 10s could provide the balls and that was solved instantly by Bruno, and now hopefully, VdB as his backup, in the initial Pogba role.Any idea of when we're actually going to see evidence of that?
This season is tough but thank God it’s tough for everyone so we’re 7pts away from the top with a game in hand, meaning potentially 4pts. We also have more natural 10s who will allow us to provide chances to our strikers. They find back form, as they did last year (60+ goals for the front 3) and we will stay close. Or match them, who knows. Second half under Ole (and under SAF as well for those who are nostalgic), we are very very strong. We stay strong again as we did under the 2 previous spells and that’s it, we will be in the right direction.
We also know that our pts tally is 3rd best behind Pep and Klopp since Ole started, and that, despite the infamous last season first half. Which means that the 2 second halves were fantastic in term of pts tally, to be able to offset such a disastrous record. I want to keep seeing that United. It’s the most exciting United post SAF and it’s really nice. We just have to fix the first half of the season issues. I think we are addressing those, though we have some more issues to fix. That’s all.
This energy should be for your previous manager , but instead you guys chose to back the players over him and look where it takes you ?
The last season 2nd half was marvelous, but the first half was abysmal
We have reasons to be optimist coming to this season, maybe I thought Bruno was the missing piece and we finally found something that click. Turns out the first 3 games and subsequent 5 games cement my suspicion that it's all Bruno and Ole actually has nothing to do with it, just like he has nothing to do with his first 15 games win run. Just like James was starting good and suddenly got found out and turns to shit. My guess is that once teams finds out how to nullify Bruno we're back to being shit again.
This manager is clueless, if he spends 1Bn he'll assemble a team that good enough for top 4, or even challenge for the title, but it's not due to him. And that's IF he spend 1bn. His total spending breaks the 300M and we're far from looking anything like a sorted team, we don't even know what's our best formation.
Sometimes I think people refuse to see the reality as it is, because admitting he's not good means another reboot, and probably the thought of being shoved with the "I fecking told you so" by the oleinners or whatever your opposite position is. It's easier to create bogus excuses after excuses that's beyond ridiculous (e.g. All his purchases once turned out to be wasn't that great is chalked as Ed's and somehow Ole has nothing to do with them)
Non rival / non united fans can easily see Ole beyond his ex legend status, he's a very poor manager that has the same tenure as Pep Guardiola, yet achieved a grand total of big zero, but somehow if being given time he could suddenly become SAF.
We are the laughing stock of Europe, we started to resort to imaginary greatness (xG, APLT, Foundation, Bleeds reds, etc etc) the same shit we used to laugh at RAWK in our fergie days.
It's sad that some of you are so awed by Ole the scorer of our great 1999 goal that you can't see a simple reality that he's a poor manager.
I actually never think of Ole and his goal in the CL, trust me. But there are multiple things that you see in his game principles and for me, it's very good. I disagree with most of your points about Ole being clueless, I can try to emit some thoughts around why, but I think maybe it's just your thought, you've made up your mind and that's it.
Anyway, Bruno is not the only one helping. Because in order for Bruno to be able to help, you need to create the team to function well around him. The reason why it clicked right away was because the team was shaped to work with that role, and we just had players who couldn't fulfill the role. Do it, and it works best. However, if you look at the timeline, the team started going back on track before Bruno came on end of January almost. Which means that issues were getting fixed. That's not a clueless manager.
James has played well on the left. He had to play on the right when it didn't work out with Lingard, and that has create some issues for his confidence. This year, it seems that we want to put him back on the left to give him a chance to find back his natural form. Greenwood has been developed and slotted in on the right. He's not perfect there, but he can play the game. And Mata is now back on the right, albeit drifting a bit more inside, because of Bruno drifting lower, which is a recent issue we are facing and probably due to the fact that Pogba is not on absolute form right now. It goes back to the point of the thread I provided above, but we are too reliant on the form of some players because we have tried but we don't have all our players at our disposal, and as a result, we keep adapting. While Ole has addressed some of the issues by adapting the team, it doesn't solve all of them and the bigger issue is going to be consistency of the system for the players to execute, which can lead to confusion.
Now systems are not all at all. Look at the game vs Arsenal, the only game where we are completely lost in the 1st half. We played a system in a sort of 4/4/2 with a bit of a diamond, but the full backs didn't provide enough support. However, the biggest issue in that first half was not the system. Why? Because we changed the system to a more "stable" 4/2/3/1 and the good spell for us only lasted 15mn. What were those 15mn about? Intensity and energy level. In most of the games, that's what determine success. Now fitness is part of it, but mental strength is also included in that, because without those, your motivation level is not high enough to continuously create that energy. But you could see the energy level went up for 15mn. It tells us that during the half time talk, Ole probably broke something in the locker room. It also tells us that if that is not there, no system matters ultimately. And we come back to how to make sure our players can perform with that energy level consistently.
I know people focus so much on tactics, and on all kind of stats in a game. It's interesting, but we keep forgetting that these are players and human beings. What happens if Fred argue with his wife on the phone the morning of the match day, and it wasn't resolved? Or the day before, but because of the "lockdown" for the game, it wasn't resolved? Is he going to be able to deliver, whatever the staff tells him? Is there a stat in the world, or a tactic in the world, that can foresee that? There is none. And just like I don't go into my job and tell my boss that today, I've argued with my wife so I am not in condition, I don't think players share that much. They might, but they probably don't. So in that case, the mood, the confidence, this is why it all matters. We want players to be able to perform on a high energy level even when not everything is clicking, but they are not robots. It requires physical and mental training. And hopefully we are getting there but right now, that's not the case. For me, this is never captured by any tactics. But it doesn't mean there are no tactics, or that the tactics are not good. Even Messi doesn't perform well if his wife tells him something "mean".
The good thing with Ole, and I am sorry for digressing here, is that he sees that this energy level is key. Because system wise, the 4/2/3/1 he set up is structurally quite good. In fact, it's well organized enough and you can see the principles of the game quite easily. We want to play fast, we want to combine fast, and we want to be direct, to give ourselves a chance to unbalance the opposition. Also simple principles of overloading and switching over to the other side. The principles are there, but the energy level and the motivation to do so, or the lack of, sometimes hinder the goods. And then we have some weird issues, like AWB is making the calls but players can't pass to him. Matic, Pogba, Bruno are the players who can pass to him but:
- Matic is up and down, so when he's on low form, he doesn't see AWB or his pass doesn't work out
- Pogba is the guy to do that but he's overall form is low right now so we can't use him
- Bruno can do it, but if Bruno drifts low like that, we need a Mata to drift inside to give us options, but it creates a weird balance, so the best for us is to keep Bruno high up there for him to deliver in the box, and let someone else do those passes
Recently, we have tried to improve Scott passes. There were some elements, but most of the time, Scott drifts right and find Rashford on the opposite side (meaning it's a diagonal pass). It's ok, it's understandable, but then, in this setup, it means that it's either Maguire (on the left side of a back 3 in that phase) or Lindelof to find AWB who is often able to push high, especially when Bruno drifts all around the pitch and the full back goes after him. We need to reiterate the need for our players to pay attention to what's happening on the field, but that's another story.
Finally, one last comment: " My guess is that once teams finds out how to nullify Bruno we're back to being shit again.". Yep, and this is why we are working hard to create a team that allows us to create multiple threats.
Our ideal team right now under Ole is a front 3 of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, all goal threats, so you can't "forget" them. To score, they often need the ball, so Bruno is the main provider but if you mark him, the idea is:
- To have Pogba provide the long options, to open up the game
- Have Shaw/Telles and AWB push up to cross, to provide other options
For that setup to work, we need a top form Matic to cover the field, or a good Fred or Scott in a sort of DM role. The 2nd best option, that we use right now, is the Fred/Scott combination with Scott drifting right and Fred playing as a 8, counter pressing high on the field to give us the opportunity to break opposition teams. But we lose Pogba in that setup.
That's really all. Anyway, that's OK in my mind. Even if Barcelona marked Messi during their prime, they had Xavi and Iniesta and the others to provide threats. So being "nullified" when they mark Bruno itself is not a nonsense, it's football. Our response as a club is to provide other threats so that if they double mark Bruno, we exploit it.
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I guess that stems from how successful we were under Fergie for a very long time and so it's hard for fans to comprehend so many managers failing here. Some have already concluded we can never win the league again with this board. You'd think we've gone though over 10 iworld class coaches instead of the 4 that includes two underqualfied coaches and one that was past it.
We've been completely lost in almost every first half this season. Including 3 of our league wins.
That's actually the one thing I really did not expect us to become under Ole, to become so poor at starting games with any purpose or drive. Especially thinking back to the way we blitzed PSG in Ole's first few months. This season we've basically had to wait until the other team score and shock us, or sleepwalk into the second half and have a VAR penalty scare/win a penalty in order for the team to actually kick into life.
And when the only plan is counter attack sluggish starts become an even bigger problem. Because if you can't score early the counter attack isn't viable.
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Finish 2nd/3rd and then meltdown next season. Can't wait!
Nonsense.
I was Moyes out the moment we're out of top 4.
I was LVG out since I realized how many matches I've missed through sleep.
I was Mourinho out when he said "Football heritage".
Ole had done positive things so far, our team is younger and we're relying on them. The chemistry and determination of the players is likeable in Ole's tenure. I'd back this team, even when chips are down.
Well said, but boy are the moaners going to come after you.
Apart from Sir Matt and SAF, Manchester United, for all their status, have historically been one of the most average teams in the top league(s).
All this crap about how we're Manchester United, the biggest team, etc., needs to stop. It's not true historically except for the two blips already mentioned.
You don'y 'know' that, it's your belief that's true.
If I recall, we had a worse start last year and got 66 points, so I am not sure why we would get less points this season?
Logic isn't part of the narrative