Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

VAR - Love or Hate?


  • Total voters
    1,022

Flytan

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
2,592
Location
United States
Maybe it’s just you have never seen an NFL game without instant replay? That’s understandable. But it’s not only replays that kill the broadcast. It’s the constant calls of the refs every other play calling some kind of penalty for the littlest of infractions. Combine the two and it becomes unwatchable. You just accept this while I cannot. Therefore I just can’t watch it and enjoy it like I used to. VAR is not at that point yet but it will be.
Dude there's nearly the same amount of fouls+offsides in football as there is penalties in NFL games. That's not killing anything. Not to mention it's entirely on the teams to play by the rules. VAR is needed. In a world where the everyday fan can see a replay and see a blown call, it's a necessity.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
38,395
Location
Munich
Whilst I agree that VAR isn't good/accurate enough to call offsides, I also think that if we had Offside Line Technology we'd still have the issue of goals being ruled out because someone is a millimeter offside - which isn't what the point of the rule is or was when it was introduced.

For me the rule needs to be you're offside if your whole foot is ahead of the defenders trailing foot (or some other distance that actually equates to gaining an advantage)... and forget about whether your arm/head whatever is ahead
What if your whole foot is just one-millimeter ahead of the defenders trailing foot? It would be the same complain, the only difference is the reference point is changing.
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
35,759
Location
W.Yorks
What if your whole foot is just one-millimeter ahead of the defenders trailing foot? It would be the same complain, the only difference is the reference point is changing.
Then its less of an issue because a large portion of his foot is ahead anyway. But as I said in a later post, when its that tight it should come down to the linesman's original onfield decision.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
38,395
Location
Munich
Question to all those who are pro-VAR?

1) do you think that the number of checks/reviews would increase/decrease over the years

2) do you think it should still be limited to game changing decisions like penalties/red cards. Or for every decision like a foul/throw in.
1) It won't increase IMO.

2) I would add also the fouls in the last 25m of the pitch, and bad fouls which deserve a yellow card. In both cases (and offsides too), the decision to be made from VAR referee, while the big decisions (penalties, goals and red cards) to be made from the main referee (who watched the incident in the replay).
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
38,395
Location
Munich
Then its less of an issue because a large portion of his foot is ahead anyway. But as I said in a later post, when its that tight it should come down to the linesman's original onfield decision.
Dunno, to me it looks like just changing the offside rule (which can be done), but it doesn't solve the problem. It will still be a binary decision, and when it is a corner case, people will complain anyway.

I also don't see why it has to stand to linesman's original decision, when obviously the easiest thing for him to do is to allow the game continue, and then raise the flag in order for VAR to decide. I think that offsides is one of the easiest thing to do right in VAR, cause it is either offside, or not offside. Pens are more problematic cause it is still subjectivity, though now refs have more time to make the correct decisions.
 

Sir Red Devil

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
189
As I stated in my previous posts I am not against VAR being used to make the decisions in the situations where the resolution of the situation always based on a be subjective decision. (penalty decisions, diving, deliberate handball, yellow and red cards etc.). In situations where you need to determine whether the ball crossed the line or whether the play was offside you need 100% objective decisions. So we came with Goal Line Technology and hopefully in the future we will come up with a solution for an offside problem.

One common criticism of VAR is that "beacause of it you can't instantly celebrate a goal because you think that the VAR will reverse the decision". I can't agree with that one. I always celebrate the scored goal if I think that the player who scored the goal was onside. For example when Rashford scored United's 3rd goal vs Chelsea I instantly celebrated it because by watching that moment in real time I thought that Rashford was onside. If he head been in offside position the goal wouldn't have been count but does it matter whether the goal would be called of by the linesman rising his flag or by VAR. No difference for me.
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
35,759
Location
W.Yorks
Dunno, to me it looks like just changing the offside rule (which can be done), but it doesn't solve the problem. It will still be a binary decision, and when it is a corner case, people will complain anyway.

I also don't see why it has to stand to linesman's original decision, when obviously the easiest thing for him to do is to allow the game continue, and then raise the flag in order for VAR to decide. I think that offsides is one of the easiest thing to do right in VAR, cause it is either offside, or not offside. Pens are more problematic cause it is still subjectivity, though now refs have more time to make the correct decisions.
But it's not easy to do right whilst the technology isn't up to scratch for the incredibly tight calls.

That's why I reckon the play carries on, the goal is scored and if the linesman thinks its offside he raises his flag (and if he doesn't he keeps it down) and then in the VAR check, if its too tight to call (maybe a 5cm margin for error or something) then the decision reverts back to the original linesman decisions. That way you're not altering a "clear and obvious error" as if it's offside/not offside by 5cm then that isn't clear or obvious.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
4,510
Goal line technology has been. That’s because the response is instantaneous and not open to any kind of interpretation.

That should be the minimum standard which all subsequent tech in football must meet. Goes without saying that VAR falls woefully short of this.
I don’t even think that goal line tech has added to the game. It’s improved accuracy and is acceptable as a decision point.

But it’s also not as accurate as it pretends to be, and the ‘did it or didn’t it cross the line’ is still an objectively better spectacle than ‘let’s look at this faux cartoon representation and check.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
15,420
Location
Scotland
Supports
Everton
I'd like them to make an announcement as to why the VAR decision has been made so there is complete clarity. Just putting GOAL or NO GOAL etc. still creates a bit of controversy. If you're doing this to cut out that then completely cut it out, don't just half arse it.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
38,395
Location
Munich
I'd like them to make an announcement as to why the VAR decision has been made so there is complete clarity. Just putting GOAL or NO GOAL etc. still creates a bit of controversy. If you're doing this to cut out that then completely cut it out, don't just half arse it.
They should do it, completely agree.
 

ForestRGoinUp

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
1,370
They should do it, completely agree.
They will definitely do it. The referee will be mic’d up to the stadium and take a moment to explain the decision. Don’t watch enough to be sure, but isn’t Germany doing this or working towards this?
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
20,186
I'd like them to make an announcement as to why the VAR decision has been made so there is complete clarity. Just putting GOAL or NO GOAL etc. still creates a bit of controversy. If you're doing this to cut out that then completely cut it out, don't just half arse it.
Agree. One of the unquestionably bad things about VAR from the very start has been how badly they explain their decisions. During the WC I would have been at a loss with many decisions if I wasn't tuned in to various journalists online and even then you had to do some guesswork.

For example, the idea that a foul on a attacker doesn't count if the attacking team has commited a foul at the same time or before. Unless you explain that the foul wasn't given for that reason people will be perplexed as they might not even notice the attacking team's foul. They'll just see a blatant penalty not given.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
15,420
Location
Scotland
Supports
Everton
Agree. One of the unquestionably bad things about VAR from the very start has been how badly they explain their decisions. During the WC I would have been at a loss with many decisions if I wasn't tuned in to various journalists online and even then you had to do some guesswork.

For example, the idea that a foul on a attacker doesn't count if the attacking team has commited a foul at the same time or before. Unless you explain that the foul wasn't given for that reason people will be perplexed as they might not even notice the attacking team's foul. They'll just see a blatant penalty not given.
That's one of the reasons, yeah. I was listening to Sunday Supplement and there was a journo on there basically saying how you'd go into a pub after a game 20 years ago and everyone would be asking you for info about the game. Nowadays you know less about the game by watching it live than you do watching it on TV or in the pub.
 

Vato

Watches other men wank.Supports Real.Coincidence?
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
33,117
Location
None of your fecking business
Supports
Real Madrid
That’s what it’ll be used for I’m afraid & for more & more things in the future- The response will be- ( technology is there? Why not use it? Are you a caveman?)

It’s a Pandora’s box that never should’ve been opened
Your posts should come with a dramatic Hans Zimmer tune.
 

Rafaeldagold

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
1,244
Your posts should come with a dramatic Hans Zimmer tune.
Funny quip..well done.

How about discussing the post though? It’s obviously the road we’re going down, with more incidents being reviewed & VAR CANNOT get quicker- it’s another bloke looking at a replay. You can’t speed that up.

But of course you can’t discuss the actual point of the post as you’re so pro VAR & entrenched in your view you’ll defend it to the end now regardless
 

Vato

Watches other men wank.Supports Real.Coincidence?
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
33,117
Location
None of your fecking business
Supports
Real Madrid
They should give each team 3 VAR calls instead of reviewing all goals and offsides. That would maybe stop these guys from crying.
 

ForestRGoinUp

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
1,370
They should give each team 3 VAR calls instead of reviewing all goals and offsides. That would maybe stop these guys from crying.
3 is overkill, but several of us have suggested something along these lines anyway. Far from crying innit, dope.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
20,186
They should give each team 3 VAR calls instead of reviewing all goals and offsides. That would maybe stop these guys from crying.
Would be interesting to see how a challenge system works in comparison, alright.

Though the obvious problem with that would be the tactical use of challenges to waste time. You could imagine a lot of 1-0 games ending with a flood VAR challenges on the winning team's part to go along with the usual substitutions and general time wasting.

Plus while there would be fewer VAR incidents the VAR incidents that do happen would take longer as it would presumably have to be looked at first by the team who may want to challenge it (to decide if it's worthwhile) and then by VAR (to decide if it stands).
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
35,759
Location
W.Yorks
Would be interesting to see how a challenge system works in comparison, alright.

Though the obvious problem with that would be the tactical use of challenges to waste time. You could imagine a lot of 1-0 games ending with a flood VAR challenges on the winning team's part to go along with the usual substitutions and general time wasting.

Plus while there would be fewer VAR incidents the VAR incidents that do happen would take longer as it would presumably have to be looked at first by the team who may want to challenge it (to decide if it's worthwhile) and then by VAR (to decide if it stands).
Well you'd say they can only be for certain things (Penalties / Red Cards / Goals / Free kicks within 30 yards of your goal) so they can't just try challenge a corner or random foul or something like that.
 

Vato

Watches other men wank.Supports Real.Coincidence?
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
33,117
Location
None of your fecking business
Supports
Real Madrid
Though the obvious problem with that would be the tactical use of challenges to waste time. You could imagine a lot of 1-0 games ending with a flood VAR challenges on the winning team's part to go along with the usual substitutions and general time wasting.
True, but now they throw themselves to the floor instead. Maybe they need to be stricter on time wasting and penalise players faster for it.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
20,186
Well you'd say they can only be for certain things (Penalties / Red Cards / Goals / Free kicks within 30 yards of your goal) so they can't just try challenge a corner or random foul or something like that.
How do you stop a team from claiming that any challenge is a potential red card challenge in that scenario though?

Even if it is quickly dismissed out of hand it's still another break in momentum. Imagine three of them in injury time along with a substitution or whatever.....
 

Vato

Watches other men wank.Supports Real.Coincidence?
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
33,117
Location
None of your fecking business
Supports
Real Madrid
Well you'd say they can only be for certain things (Penalties / Red Cards / Goals / Free kicks within 30 yards of your goal) so they can't just try challenge a corner or random foul or something like that.
This aswell.

Anyway, I'm sure they'll iron the issues out of it in time, to try and keep everyone happy.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
20,186
This aswell.

Anyway, I'm sure they'll iron the issues out of it in time, to try and keep everyone happy.
It would certainly be worth trying out in some random cup competition to see how it works. I wonder if they ever said what their thinking was in opting against a challenge system? There presumably must be some reason nobody has tried it.
 

Mrs Smoker

Full Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
24,186
Location
In garden with Maurice
Supports
Panthère du Ndé
Probably talked about in these 20+ pages, but is it weird to not completely trust the VAR with these minuscule offsides? Tech is not that good yet to determine when the pass was made and to calculate distances of attackers and defenders from that exact moment?
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
35,759
Location
W.Yorks
Probably talked about in these 20+ pages, but is it weird to not completely trust the VAR with these minuscule offsides? Tech is not that good yet to determine when the pass was made and to calculate distances of attackers and defenders from that exact moment?
No it's perfectly valid and fair criticism. When you account for frame rate and human error, the technology isn't yet good enough
 

limerickcitykid

There once was a kid from Toronto...
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
11,912
Location
East end / Oot and aboot
Yep.

I think it's quite likely that the offside rule will be changed over the coming years but it will likely be less about shifting where the offside line is and more about changing it from an entirely objective call to one that allows some subjective discretion. Perhaps by incorporating the question of whether an advantage was gained.
That will never happen. The whole concept of offside relies on drawing a line. You can't just allow the referee to decide what offside is and isn't on a whim as they feel fit. All that would do is bring the game into disrepute. If you think complaints about offside are bad now, the whole place would be a complete shit show if refs just chose what is offside whenever they feel like. Thankfully that will never be voted into use.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
93,927
Location
Dublin, Ireland
It’s all becoming a bit too sanitized for my liking. Nothing wrong with “play to the whistle” in my opinion.
 

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,122
This is really the key phrase.

The whole point of VAR should be to eliminate really bad decisions from the game. Everyone is in favour of that. You'd have to be very hardline against VAR not to be in favour of that.

It shouldn't be to delay the game as often as possible, in order to attempt to identify microscopic indiscretions that absolutely no-one could see with the naked eye, and which, in some cases, wouldn't even have been deemed against the rules just a few years ago.

I want to see football matches decided by skill. I don't want to see them decided by...oh, look at that incident in slow motion, is that an 'unnatural silhouette'? Well, we simply have to give a penalty. Look at that striker dragging his foot...look! There's contact with the defender! That has to be a penalty. Well, that seems like a good goal, but actually Sterling's fingernail is 1mm offside for 0.01 seconds, so we need to chalk that one off immediately.

It's quite possible now that you could have a game in which a brilliant goal is disallowed for being unbelievably marginally offside, to such a degree that it depends which frame you look at as to whether it's offside or not (this has already happened), while at the other end someone boots the ball straight at someone's hand from close range, and they get a penalty because the defender had an 'unnatural silhouette' at the time (I appreciate the rules for handball are slightly different in the Premier League, but this has already happened as well).

This would represent games being decided by technology rather than good play. Which is not what VAR should be about. VAR should be about ensuring that massive mistakes cannot decide a game.
I have to say, until you get bogged down in the tedious, wanting everything to be right, detail all of the time. This seems like quite a good post to me.

I almost dread to say - being like, really opposed - but it's amost getting into the 'challenge' territory - where you leave it like it is, but the absolute rubbish is scrubbed out. OK, I don't actually believe that, but it was the original aim, I think.
 

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,122
Probably talked about in these 20+ pages, but is it weird to not completely trust the VAR with these minuscule offsides? Tech is not that good yet to determine when the pass was made and to calculate distances of attackers and defenders from that exact moment?
I don't see that there is an argument that says OLD is better than NEW here, really. If you use it for anything, offside is first choice for me. Same for both sides etc etc.
 

KB3D

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Messages
2
Question to all those who are pro-VAR?

1) do you think that the number of checks/reviews would increase/decrease over the years

2) do you think it should still be limited to game changing decisions like penalties/red cards. Or for every decision like a foul/throw in.
1)Decrease because refs will get used to it. Future players will grow up with VAR. Because of that defending will change, strikers also will change because they can't play the way Inzaghi for instance played. He was offside allot and would get away with it sometimes, so it was worth the risk. There will be less diving because it will not be rewarded.
VAR itself will also be fine-tuned over time.

People focus allot on how refs and players deal with VAR in the transition period, and are not taking into account how it will influence refereeing, coaching and young players development in the game with VAR present.

2) Only game changing decisions.
 

bleedred

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2011
Messages
5,267
Location
404
It would make far too much sense.
And that's the point me and many are trying to make. If you pick and choose on what to use technology for and leave gaps, then this whole point about making the game fairer makes no sense.