Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by RedFish, Aug 10, 2019.

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VAR - Love or Hate?

  1. Love it

    49.5%
  2. Hate it

    33.6%
  3. Hate it but will say I love it so I’m not on the same side as ForestRGoinUp

    3.9%
  4. Don’t care

    13.0%
  1. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    No its like saying, I can't use the new iPhone because I am shit with technology, so the iPhone must be shite for everyone.

    Which is flawed. VAR is fine. The referees here are just incompetent at following it's protocall.
  2. Nov 4, 2019

    krautrøck New Member

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    One of the main issues with VAR everywhere seems to be that the technical side of things, aka handling the actual input via mouse and keyboard, should be handled by digital natives and not by the equivalent of my dad who somehow manages to inadvertently leave every single url he visits as a clickable shortcut on the desktop.
  3. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    but you said you want the right result & don’t care about stoppages? So what if a linesman missed a ball going out of play 5 mins before a goal is scored? Or an incorrect foul is given or missed in the build up to a goal?
  4. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    I meant in the context of a goal scoring opportunity. That should have been obvious given that's what VAR is brought in for. Your examples aren't directly linked to a goal scoring opportunity.
  5. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    VAR is not fine. You can’t look at what’s happening all season and say it’s fine.
  6. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    They result in a goal though? Isn’t it all about fairness though? If you’re willing to break up the game & review goal scoring opportunities then surely you’d want all areas to look at if it’s about fairness?
  7. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    VAR is fine. The referees here aren't following it's protocall properly, which makes it a problem with them rather than the infrastructure of VAR itself.

    They're meant to use it for clear and obvious errors, not any shit. They're meant to go to the touchline and review for themselves, it's there to inform the ref to take a better look on the video. It's an assistant, not an override. And yet the refs here just hear something they haven't seen and award or take away penalties, red cards etc.

    Var is not as big an issue elsewhere. Yeah it has teething problems everywhere but it has more right outcomes than wrong. Maybe less here, but that's because our refs fail to follow its protocall.
  8. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    It has to be in relation to a direct goal scoring opportunity. This isn't hard to understand, it's a compromise between fairness and keeping in the spirit of the game and reducing too many stoppages. VAR wasn't made to stop every play like its chess. It was made for specific reasons. You're getting muddled up.
  9. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    If VAR can be used so badly then don’t you have to ask if the system is as good as you think it is? Why does VAR get a let off but when refs make mistakes on the field they get slaughtered?
  10. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    You're literally talking like a guy who can't use a new phone, and then extrapolate that to every user and says the phone is shit for everything.

    VAR works a lot better in other leagues, and international games. It works worst here. The problem is therefore with the people using it here, not with the technology itself.
  11. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    I think you see what I’m getting at. You might be fine with that. Others may not & over time the cry will be ‘ We have the technology so why not use it in everything? Every decision? We’re living in the dark ages!’
  12. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    That’s also a lie when pro VAR people say it works great everywhere else. It doesn’t, there’s been many complaints about it in other countries. But of course it suits your agenda to say it’s perfect everywhere else. Which doesn’t even matter as it’s ruining the game here
  13. Nov 4, 2019

    RK Full Member

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    Have to laugh at the comments saying that VAR isn't the problem, it's the officials using it.

    Even if we all agreed on that (I don't), it just takes back to square one where the fix is "get better officials".

    Critical decisions will always be subjective. So given that there will always be debate and uproar over these decisions, it was a mistake to ruin the game somewhat by trying to appease the loudest shouters, who will always shout.
  14. Nov 4, 2019

    Stick Full Member

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    Any interesting links left by your Da?
  15. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    I never said it works great, so why are you saying I have an agenda?

    I said it has teething problems everywhere but it's getting more right than wrong. It's better in other leagues than here.

    There's no agenda driven nature in my post. I can clearly see one in yours though.
  16. Nov 4, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    I'm not sure what to think anymore. There are some positives. I definitely think players are messing about much less because they know they are being watched. So when there aren't actually any contentious incidents, VAR is working quite well, :D.

    But all these marginal calls - including the time consuming offsides. And by marginal I also & particularly mean on the threshold of being obvious enough to overturn - the Alli handball yesterday being a good example. I think it was probably a penalty. But I understand someone saying maybe he was fouled.

    Challenges are not going to reduce disrupting the game - will probably increase it.

    And the offsides won't improve how long they take.

    I'm also back to thinking that it just doesn't suit football because key incidents occur anywhere & at anytime - even rugby isn't like this, most of their middle field stuff hardly matters score-wise so is never relevant. Rugby is either much stodgier or in blocks of action. Cricket is blocks of action, tennis is blocks of action & entirely line calls.

    I don't belueve everything is great everywhere else. But yes, they are making ours particularly dreadful.
  17. Nov 4, 2019

    SteveCoppellFan New Member

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    Rugby has nailed the use of VAR.

    Does that mean rugby just has better referees that understands the game better and know how to work in harmony with the guy upstairs seeing it on a screen ?

    They virtually never fail to make to right decision and you even hear them explaining how they got to that decision.

    That is almost light years ahead of the system that gets used in the Premiership.

    So what does that mean ? it means they have better officials than football.

    How that has been allowed to happen is beyond me and speaks volumes to how badly the Premiership referees are run.

    Something as fairly simple to implement as VAR is completely beyond them.
  18. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    Exactly
  19. Nov 4, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    Rugby is more stop start & suits it better with easier decisions to make.

    Football is more flowing & subjective & doesn’t fit as well
  20. Nov 4, 2019

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    Some critical decisions are subjective, some aren't.

    Of those that are subjective, allowing the referee to have a second look at close calls would inevitably result in a better subjective decisions. At which point VAR would have done its job.

    At the the moment we have one subjective opinion possibly overruling another subjective opinion by way of a back and forth between the ref and VAR in which one must decide if enough of a mistake was made by the other, or whether the mistake wasn't quite enough for them to correct. Unsurprisingly, that system is less than ideal.
  21. Nov 4, 2019

    Camilo Full Member

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    VAR isn't anything without the referees. It's just some cameras. There's zero new tech. They're not even using high frame rates. The tech is shite, the implementation is shite, the people are shite, and it's all completely unnecessary in the first place. VAR isn't fine. If it was a new, goal-line style automatic system which monitored offsides, then fine. But it's not. It's about as high-tech as me shouting at a TV in my bed.

    Just get rid of it.
  22. Nov 4, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    That's such a shit argument. It records incidents and allows a ref to replay and rewatch from an angle where he's better informed. That immediately makes it an upgrade on what he has already, which is nothing.

    The implementation is shit. They never jog on to the side and take a look, and they don't have a clue what clear and obvious means. The actual system itself is fine, it's the referees failure to follow it.
  23. Nov 4, 2019

    RK Full Member

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    It was never a valid argument that VAR would result in worse decisions, it was that it wouldn't be worth reducing the number controversial decisions slightly while massively impacting the flow of the game and celebrations.

    One argument is that the main ref should look at a pitch-side monitor to improve consistency. But another argument is that VAR should comprise many independent referees (hundreds?) to rule by majority and "wisdom of the crowd". It doesn't end. There will always be ways of improving accuracy but we have to draw the line somewhere and I think we've gone beyond it now.
  24. Nov 4, 2019

    Wumminator The Special One!

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    I have to admit the links of Brexit and VAR are really obvious now.

    Ever increasingly it becomes obvious that some people swallowed a like hook, line and sinker, but just keep pushing their mantra. “Get VAR done.”

    Meanwhile the same ones watch in incredulity as it all turns to shit.
  25. Nov 4, 2019

    awop New Member

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    You got a new one @VP89 , good luck !
  26. Nov 5, 2019

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    The difference in the relationship between the crowd and those implementing the decisions is important too.

    One of the key differences with the system in rugby is that the fans can see the incident and hear the referee even as the decision is being made, which obviously leads to a lot more clarity as to what the hell is going on.

    Whereas in football there is an extreme reluctance to show any contentious incidents to fans in the stadium for fear of how they would react. Meanwhile even those of us at home don't hear the conversation between the ref and VAR, specifically in order to protect the referee from extra pressure and scrutiny.
  27. Nov 5, 2019

    Superden New Member

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    if i was minded to fix a game of cricket, its not the players or the umpires id nobble, its the people running DRS (crickets VAR) at any one game, some of the recent predictions from ball tracking to judge LBWs as well as some of the sound detecting (snicko) for edges has looked odd at best. same sooner or later applies to football and VAR. lets not forget theres been floodlight failures in the past at the behest of gambling / bookmaking groups..
  28. Nov 5, 2019

    cyberman Full Member

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    Whats wrong with the technology? If anything, the crying on here is thst its too accurate.
    Name one thing VAR as a technical kit has missed. What makes it shit?

    All im seeing is crying about an offside in the Villa game that was offside and given by tbe linesman anyway and a Spurs handball which, again, was missed by the ref.
    The fact we can nitpick decisions instead of categorising a large amount of decisions as levelling out in the long run shows its working.
    Both instances would not have changed without VAR so this sudden outrage over the last few days is misguided.
    Its crying just to cry.
  29. Nov 5, 2019

    krautrøck New Member

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    Depends, are you into gardening?

    Nah, he doesn't frequent the wondrous realm of the seedy interweb underworld.
  30. Nov 5, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    VAR needs competent refs to use it. So why not just have these competent refs on the field ?
  31. Nov 5, 2019

    Mb194dc Full Member

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    Great article in the telegraph today (paywall):

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...top-treating-match-going-fans-like-dirt-four/

    4 points in it:

    Instruct referees to use pitchside monitors
    Show replays on the big screens
    Appoint former officials as full-time video referees
    Sack Mike Riley and appoint Pierluigi Collina

    Couldn't agree more really.

    VAR in the premier league is an absolute joke. The refereeing was already really poor and it's made it even worse...


  32. Nov 5, 2019

    awop New Member

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    It's been years since the public ask for better refs, we're yet to get them. They must be hiding very well.
  33. Nov 6, 2019

    base615 New Member

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    Not necessarily. Rugby can run for quite some time after an incident as the refs will play significant advantage or let a suspect try go in case they’re wrong about a forward pass for example. You only have to look at how long after the final whistle a game can continue until a penalty is conceded or the ball goes dead.

    It’s a case of the refs being much better and the processes being better refined IMO. There are times when the on field ref disagrees with the TMO but everyone watching understands the process and the conversations going on. There are times when they get it wrong still but people understand that they are fallible and move on.

    I don’t think there’s any fewer stoppages in football. There’s no reason why they can’t play advantage until a throw in or goal kick and then run the tape but the main problem with VAR is three fold in my view:

    1. VAR is being used, or not used, inconsistently

    2. Nobody sees or hears what is being reviewed

    3. The technology is portrayed as being super accurate to the point of being able to have an offside by millimetres, when in reality the frames picked, or not picked, for review could each be ‘right’ but have huge disparity in outcome.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2019
  34. Nov 6, 2019

    Bobski Full Member

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    That sending off in the City game and the subsequent confusion, indecision and frustration should stop the VAR is only a problem in England narrative.

    Timekeeping also a issue in that incident, at least 5 mins wasted in that event alone, only 7 added overall.
  35. Nov 6, 2019

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    You mean Brexit and being anti-VAR? Both are correlated with the personality trait of (low) openness.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  36. Nov 6, 2019

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    Ref on the field should play the game as if VAR didn't exist whilst VAR should be in permanent use from the team off the field. Anything that the ref misses, they can correct in a few seconds assuming they are competent. The whole running over to the VAR box, the signalling of the screen etc is just pointless and takes all the passion/fun/intensity out of a game.
  37. Nov 6, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    no with logic. It’s logical that brexit is shite & logical that VAR is Shite
  38. Nov 7, 2019 at 05:36

    Wumminator The Special One!

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  39. Nov 7, 2019 at 10:43

    blue blue Full Member

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    Just read the first few lines and basically agreed with the premise of the correlation.

    Now we know it doesn't work we should take a step back. I say it doesn't work because there is an erosion of the fun we fans have. We also have linesmen and referees not doing their job because they believe Stockley Park will decide for them, like after a close offside for a goal. The linesman keeps his flag down because he's not sure, the fans celebrate the goal only to be disappointed when VAR rules it out. I had it the other night on a handball. Chelsea 5th goal was disallowed for a hand ball by Abraham. It was a poor decision and many pundits have unfairly compared it to the hand ball that gave Chelsea their second penalty. The Ajax handball prevented the ball from going towards the goal from CHO's shot yet Abrahams handball only prevented the ball from hitting his hip which was 2 inches behind his hand. I would also argue the Ajax handball looked like the player actually tried to deflect the ball with his hand while Abraham didn't move his hand at all.

    Maybe that one can be put down to the new handball rule but the offside rulings are mad. It needs to be changed. I've said before that technology can make offside decisions on its own with Stockley Park and this is where we need to be heading.
  40. Nov 7, 2019 at 10:59

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    1) There are many decisions they can't correct in a few seconds, no matter how competent they are.

    2) I'm not sure having the referee go to the sideline takes any more passion/fun/intensity out of the game than having the ref & players mill around while VAR is making its decision.

    3) As for being pointless, it isn't. It prevents a situation where one person's arguably valid subjective call overrules another person's arguably valid subjective call, it provides more clarity to fans as to where responsibility for overturning an incident lies and adds an additional layer of scrutiny for subjective calls.