Getting rid of the negative influences

Bastian

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I've seen this line trotted out so many times when it comes to the supposed "cultural reset" Ole is overseeing. Here's one instance:

I felt the team towards the end of last season didn't have the desire, didn't have the heart, didn't have the belief that this is going to turn around. This group is a different mentality.
And of course, after the Sheffield game where Ole backed up the players saying there was no question about their desire or attitude, just after saying Sheffield looked like they wanted it more. He also said his team believed less in its game plan than Sheffield did theirs (pretty damning of both players and manager). Adding that last season we would have imploded.

Now, my question is, is shipping out Lukaku and Sanchez (both of whom I wanted out) and buying those three players he did, the equivalent of ridding the club of negative influences? I can't help thinking Lukaku and Sanchez are here being blamed for the whole team being utter shite in the last 3 months of last season.

Our two most talented players aren't exactly immune from criticism of negative influence surely? Martial has rarely looked even mildly content (same with Cole, but Cole delivered consistently and worked hard for the team) and Pogba who openly declared he wanted to leave looked quite a few times last season like he couldn't care less. Both under Ole and Mourinho.

The point is not to bash those two players, but to question this cultural reset, this ridding the team of negative influences - is it just a soundbite, a vacuous party trick during press conferences? It seems most of the positive things that are being done "in the background" are of that nature.
 

Greck

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In a team lacking ambition players with standards can easily come across as being negative influences. Lukaku, Sanchez and Pogba showed more fight in losing positions than what Ole is currently praising as having desire.

Even Jose and his toxicity had us showing more desire and giving better comebacks when he was on his sack campaign.
 

Tel074

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In a team lacking ambition players with standards can easily come across as being negative influences. Lukaku, Sanchez and Pogba showed more fight in losing positions than what Ole is currently praising as having desire.

Even Jose and his toxicity had us giving better comebacks when he was on his sack campaign.
Sanchez showed nothing whatsoever if we are going to be honest
 

Giggsyking

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If you want to get rid of the negative influence, start with the owners "leeches", the board and clueless ED, then the clueless novice manager.
 

Greck

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Sanchez showed nothing whatsoever if we are going to be honest
Maybe but that's not really the point. I'm saying that team with all its negativity showed better fighting spirit in moments of adversity than the shiteshow that is the present team. I should know because they kept foiling the hope to get Jose sacked with those comebacks. The mentality hasn't actually improved.
 

mariachi-19

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I've seen this line trotted out so many times when it comes to the supposed "cultural reset" Ole is overseeing. Here's one instance:



And of course, after the Sheffield game where Ole backed up the players saying there was no question about their desire or attitude, just after saying Sheffield looked like they wanted it more. He also said his team believed less in its game plan than Sheffield did theirs (pretty damning of both players and manager). Adding that last season we would have imploded.

Now, my question is, is shipping out Lukaku and Sanchez (both of whom I wanted out) and buying those three players he did, the equivalent of ridding the club of negative influences? I can't help thinking Lukaku and Sanchez are here being blamed for the whole team being utter shite in the last 3 months of last season.

Our two most talented players aren't exactly immune from criticism of negative influence surely? Martial has rarely looked even mildly content (same with Cole, but Cole delivered consistently and worked hard for the team) and Pogba who openly declared he wanted to leave looked quite a few times last season like he couldn't care less. Both under Ole and Mourinho.

The point is not to bash those two players, but to question this cultural reset, this ridding the team of negative influences - is it just a soundbite, a vacuous party trick during press conferences? It seems most of the positive things that are being done "in the background" are of that nature.
I have not seen Pogba under Ole look like he didn't give a feck. Even the last two games of last season, Pogba was the driving force trying to create something in those games.

What I have seen since certain players have left is that the club is attempting to re-ignite a youthful and passioante culture. The problem is that this only comes from playing young and inexperienced players which due to the near utter failure of Ole's senior players this season to even fecking show up to play, has lead to mistakes being made in games that we should have won.

This squad lacks leadership because the experienced players (aside from De Gea and Maguire) are absolute shit. Seriously, every single one of them apart from those two players over the age of 27 have been horrendous. At somepoint the blame cannot go on the manager and those players need to put up their hand and say, I havent been good enough and actually take responsibility for this shit performances.

Further on youth, as it has been repeatedly said by the likes of Neville, the class of 92 walked into a team full of experienced talent. You cant do what Ole has done this season and expect to be successful. Especially with a Manager who is learning his trade alongside players of the same ilk. It was clear as day from early this season that we would struggle but it would be a mixture of flashes of brilliance amongst alot of shit which is exactly what we have seen.


Irrespective of the above, I seem to remember a certain Scott going through the same growing pains 30 odd years ago. Guess what, results were kinda shit then too, but if you want to change the entire culture of a club to promote a positive style of football, it doesn't happen over night. And lets not pretend like we weren't one of the bigger clubs in the league back then too.

As an example: the 88/89 and 89/90 season FYI. 13 wins in a single league season on two occasions under SAF...

27 August 1988Queens Park RangersH0–046,37710th
3 September 1988LiverpoolA0–142,02614th
10 September 1988MiddlesbroughH1–0Robson 70'40,42210th
17 September 1988Luton TownA2–0Davenport 19', Robson 84'11,0108th
24 September 1988West Ham UnitedH2–0Davenport 37', Hughes 67'39,9415th
1 October 1988Tottenham HotspurA2–2Hughes 43', McClair 72'29,3185th
22 October 1988WimbledonA1–1Hughes 23'12,1437th
26 October 1988Norwich CityH1–2Hughes 59'36,9988th
30 October 1988EvertonA1–1Hughes 69'27,00510th
5 November 1988Aston VillaH1–1Bruce 42'44,80411th
12 November 1988Derby CountyA2–2Hughes 42', McClair 64'24,08011th
19 November 1988SouthamptonH2–2Robson 16', Hughes 53'37,27711th
23 November 1988Sheffield WednesdayH1–1Hughes 83'30,8499th
27 November 1988Newcastle UnitedA0–020,35011th
3 December 1988Charlton AthleticH3–0Milne 22', McClair 55', Hughes 78'31,1739th
10 December 1988Coventry CityA0–119,93610th
17 December 1988ArsenalA1–2Hughes 81'37,42210th
26 December 1988Nottingham ForestH2–0Milne 23', Hughes 53'39,5829th
1 January 1989LiverpoolH3–1McClair 71', Hughes 75', Beardsmore 77'44,7456th
2 January 1989MiddlesbroughA0–124,4119th
14 January 1989MillwallH3–0Blackmore 12', Gill 23', Hughes 73'40,9316th
21 January 1989West Ham UnitedA3–1Strachan 28', Martin 55', McClair 60'29,8226th
5 February 1989Tottenham HotspurH1–0McClair 57'41,4235th
11 February 1989Sheffield WednesdayA2–0McClair (2) 37', 61'34,8203rd
25 February 1989Norwich CityA1–2McGrath 82'23,1555th
12 March 1989Aston VillaA0–028,3327th
25 March 1989Luton TownH2–0Milne 3', Blackmore 25'36,3356th
27 March 1989Nottingham ForestA0–230,0927th
2 April 1989ArsenalH1–1Adams 85' (o.g.)37,97710th
8 April 1989MillwallA0–017,52310th
15 April 1989Derby CountyH0–234,14510th
22 April 1989Charlton AthleticA0–112,05510th
29 April 1989Coventry CityH0–129,79911th
2 May 1989WimbledonH1–0McClair 89'23,36810th
6 May 1989SouthamptonA1–2Beardsmore 54'17,02110th
8 May 1989Queens Park RangersA2–3Bruce 15', Blackmore 22'10,01711th
10 May 1989EvertonH1–2Hughes 32'26,72211th
13 May 1989Newcastle UnitedH2–0McClair 75', Robson 82'30,37910th
 

Sterling Archer

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They're easy to sell phrases that make ya feel like good things are just a snap of the finger away.

Always felt having someone like Fellaini in the squad was a good thing. Imagine being a player more technically gifted and entitled seeing him get the starting spot because he gave more for the badge. Would be easy to root out the real rotten egg or motivate the one that's needing a kick up the butt.
 

Bastian

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@mariachi-19

We've seen Pogba differently then, but that's not really my point here. The SAF comparison is pointless as he already had proven himself and he's an absolute master that you can't fail to see. Given the distance between the two, I'd say posters on here are nearer to Ole's managerial ability than Ole is to SAF. That's my take anyway.

The youth. OK, so he's bigged up Greenwood massively and he's promoted Tuanzebe to third in the pecking order. Williams got a chance when there were no other options and he forced himself into the team. All credit to Brandon Williams. Other than that, there's not been a great deal of trusting youth. Last game was a prime example of that. Going with Pereira in midfield, a two man midfield at that, is a much repeated and 100% failed experiment. I know they played a full game in the Europa on Thursday, but both Garner and Levitt would have been more worthy of starting against Villa. Ole could also have shown some tactical flexibility and gone with a midfield three to compensate for missing the two key players out. So this youth thing is more talked about then it is actually manifested.

Igniting the club with passion. I've not seen that since he was made permanent manager. He is passionate. Sure. But our football is anything but. It is the same slow predictable attacking build up that we've come accustomed to. Nothing has changed there. And when Daniel James beats his man to provide a cross, there is no one (Martial) busting a gut to get on the end of things, and definitely no one from midfield.

Turns out, football today isn't just about telling players to play with freedom and a smile on their face. It takes a lot more and I've seen nothing of it. But I hear a lot about how things are being done behind the scenes.
 

SteveW

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This team looks a lot more honest and determined to me. They are just left down by a lack of quality in the centre of the park.
 

Tel074

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Maybe but that's not really the point. I'm saying that team with all its negativity showed better fighting spirit in moments of adversity than the shiteshow that is the present team. I should know because they kept foiling the hope to get Jose sacked with those comebacks. The mentality hasn't actually improved.
I honestly think the mentality has changed its just the playing staff is still as poor. At games I feel the team believes in Ole and that's a big reason why match going fans are massively behind him . The January window can't come quick enough
 

hobbers

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Ole is a woeful manager and belongs somewhere in the depths of League 1 in terms of his own tactical acumen, but dont worry he'll suddenly become good at some point in the next few years because SAF did it once.
 

mariachi-19

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Ole is a woeful manager and belongs somewhere in the depths of League 1 in terms of his own tactical acumen, but dont worry he'll suddenly become good at some point in the next few years because SAF did it once.
And your qualifications to make that call are?
 

amolbhatia50k

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It's just a convenient way to create a narrative that Ole has achieved something (intagiable and most likely non existent), and at the same time deflect from the real issues.

We have grit and fighting spirit under LVG and Mourinho although at times when belief sapped away as with all teams in such circumstances, we didn't. This is nothing new.
 

kambinks

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This team looks a lot more honest and determined to me. They are just left down by a lack of quality in the centre of the park.
Agreed. I think if we had an arsed and non injured Pogba we would have changed the draws to wins and a decent DM better than Fred or Matic could've helped screened and helped with defense better. I really cant be too pessimistic of our squad and Ole given how young our squad is, the injuries and Mc Tom, Williams, James have been great for the club.
 

Red_toad

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I thought you were talking about the caf.
Or Youtube, I cannot believe a bunch of miserable moaners are making a living from United's woes. There opinions are rife on there, they have so much influence on the fans (but not the club)
 

Bobcat

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It has gotten slightly better (maybe?) but complacency is still a massive problem. The fact that we have drawn 6 games from winning positions this season is just unforgivable. Its not even that we park the bus either necessarily, we just shut off and let the opponent get back into the game and then they score?

Is it fitness? Mentality? Who the feck knows.
 

roonster09

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Lukaku the moment he knew he wasn't guaranteed starter and had to fight for his position, his agent gave interview how his dream is to play in Serie A (Lukaku also said back in Oct) and then as soon as the season was done, he said how Conte is the best manager in the world and he has made the decision on his future.

Then he missed whole of preseason because of "injury", that's being unprofessional. Not something that happened for the first time with Lukaku. He talks all big like a war soldier but when the time comes when he had to fight for his position he just runs away.

On the other hand we had Martial who was arguably our best outfield player in his first season, was dropped next season and always won his place back with good performances on the pitch (and then was dropped to accommodate new shiny toys)

But some reason Lukaku is seen as professional player and Martial is someone who lacks professionalism.

I don't know whether they were negative influences but Lukaku acted like a twat missing preseason with his "injury", on the other hand Pogba gave 1 interview and was always available for the matches, didn't miss a single preseason training or games.

Also I don't think any player is immune from any sort of criticism at ManUtd, everyone i criticized for wide variety of reasons.

End of the day it's all just said in press conference, something what fans wants to hear. He got rid of players who didn't want to be here and also forced their moves, on the other hand Pogba even though he said 'It might be time for new challenge' was always professional and available.
 

Hawks2008

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This whole 'cultcha' thing is just a buzzword, the issue is quality whether it's poor coaches or poor players.
 

SteveW

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Agreed. I think if we had an arsed and non injured Pogba we would have changed the draws to wins and a decent DM better than Fred or Matic could've helped screened and helped with defense better. I really cant be too pessimistic of our squad and Ole given how young our squad is, the injuries and Mc Tom, Williams, James have been great for the club.
If we can sort out the midfield over the next couple of windows and get another striker in I think we'll be in good shape.
 

Nickelodeon

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Okay. Quick question to everyone here. What situation would you rather have? A good quality squad (on-paper at least) who are not completely motivated or a lower quality squad with full motivation?

In my opinion, we were the former when Ole took over which is why we were able to go on that winning run. Currently, even in the best case, we are the latter and I don't see any signs of encouragement. So I definitely prefer the former because at least we have hope.
 

fps

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This team looks a lot more honest and determined to me. They are just left down by a lack of quality in the centre of the park.
100% and scoring goals now too
 

Hawks2008

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It’s not, it’s key to get buy-in from every player.
No amount of culture or desire is going to turn an average player into a better one, not everything is down to intangibles like that.
 

Kappa123

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Yeah no, they gave Lingard a new contract even though not only is he a distracting influence he is complete dross. We reward failure and bare-minumum effort; we can start by getting some actual standards then maybe we could put a real squad together without buying and encouraging more shit players. It seems pretty simple tbh but it's been like 6 years of this now...
 

VeevaVee

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I think we've got rid of some negative influences, definitely. Still more to do to create the right 'culture'.

Okay. Quick question to everyone here. What situation would you rather have? A good quality squad (on-paper at least) who are not completely motivated or a lower quality squad with full motivation?

In my opinion, we were the former when Ole took over which is why we were able to go on that winning run. Currently, even in the best case, we are the latter and I don't see any signs of encouragement. So I definitely prefer the former because at least we have hope.
Well hopefully were using the latter as a base to build a better squad with the same qualities.
 

Josep Dowling

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Well everyone called Pogba poison in the dressing room. The guy has been injured for two months and we are in a lot worse situation than before. Its clear the lack of quality is not in the squad and that's why we are losing games. And players like Martial certainly don't have the right mentality.

Watch any game this season and some players can't even make simple passes. It was the same under Mourinho as well.
 

Judas

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Yeah no, they gave Lingard a new contract even though not only is he a distracting influence he is complete dross. We reward failure and bare-minumum effort; we can start by getting some actual standards then maybe we could put a real squad together without buying and encouraging more shit players. It seems pretty simple tbh but it's been like 6 years of this now...
Proof?

Can people just stick to bashing what we actually see on the pitch instead of creating stuff.
 

Adam-Utd

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This team hasn't got an attitude problem, it's a work ethic and quality problem.

They're a mixture of inconsistency and not good enough. I don't feel like recently I've watched any of the players and thought "you can't be bothered".

The lack of movement though is evident, most of the players play safely and don't want to take risks. The vision and passing ability is very poor, especially when moving. We can't seem to play a 1-2 pass in a tight area without taking a poor touch or getting the weight wrong.

We lack regular match winners, only really Pogba/Martial/Rashford could be classed as those, and they really only turn up in say 1 in 3-4 matches.
 

Kappa123

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Proof?

Can people just stick to bashing what we actually see on the pitch instead of creating stuff.
Proof? There's plenty. We've literally seen the video he took on the team bus acting a fool and embarrassing the entire squad when there was a serious incident going on with the bus being attacked. This isn't a one-off, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence at the very least.
 

bosnian_red

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This team hasn't got an attitude problem, it's a work ethic and quality problem.

They're a mixture of inconsistency and not good enough. I don't feel like recently I've watched any of the players and thought "you can't be bothered".

The lack of movement though is evident, most of the players play safely and don't want to take risks. The vision and passing ability is very poor, especially when moving. We can't seem to play a 1-2 pass in a tight area without taking a poor touch or getting the weight wrong.

We lack regular match winners, only really Pogba/Martial/Rashford could be classed as those, and they really only turn up in say 1 in 3-4 matches.
Wouldn't say its work ethic. Everyone has the occasional game, but in general we've been a hard working team under Ole.
Problem is the coaching is almost definitely subpar, the midfield isn't even premier league standard with Pogba and McTominay out, and we have no depth for anything (and unproven goalscorers). Sums up to just not being good enough for more than a top 6 challenger with the current set up, not work ethic dependent.
 

Chesterlestreet

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So I definitely prefer the former because at least we have hope.
Not much. Unless we suddenly start bringing in actual world beaters (not the likes of Lukaku or washed-up types like Sanchez) who are so exceptionally good that it doesn't matter if they're half-arsed.

Personally, I'll take a squad of dedicated fighters over a squad of half-arsed, overpaid cnuts every time. In fact, I don't think you can dig up a single example of half-arsed, overpaid cnuts winning anything of note in the history of football.

But to be clear - no, I don't think "dedicated fighters" will win anything either if they simply aren't good enough and/or if they're being led by someone who's not cut out for the task.
 

Adam-Utd

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Wouldn't say its work ethic. Everyone has the occasional game, but in general we've been a hard working team under Ole.
Problem is the coaching is almost definitely subpar, the midfield isn't even premier league standard with Pogba and McTominay out, and we have no depth for anything (and unproven goalscorers). Sums up to just not being good enough for more than a top 6 challenger with the current set up, not work ethic dependent.
Do we work hard? i'm not so sure. Our off the ball movement is very basic and we don't exactly press all over the pitch, any teams who run a bit harder than us win the battle easily.

Perhaps work ethic isn't the right word, but "not up for the fight" is perhaps a better term. We're a fair weather team.

But yes, I think we can all agree depth outside the first 11 is pretty shocking.
 

Judas

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Proof? There's plenty. We've literally seen the video he took on the team bus acting a fool and embarrassing the entire squad when there was a serious incident going on with the bus being attacked. This isn't a one-off, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence at the very least.
and that means he's a distracting influence? Just say you don't like him mate, much more honest.
 

Kappa123

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and that means he's a distracting influence? Just say you don't like him mate, much more honest.
Umm no because I don't dislike him, rather I have seen the negative behaviour so I call it as I see it.

One can choose to be naive as well, just as I could say the Earth isn't round because I haven't been in space to see the curvature with my own eyes.