Glaring systematic problems with EtHs tactics

Lentwood

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Not commenting on players here, or trying to debate whether we are objectively playing "good" or "bad" football (that much should be obvious).

My sole concern here is to highlight some of the systematic problems with EtHs setup. Feel free to add your own, there are loads!

1. The gaps between our players are huge. This makes it difficult for the man in possession to find a pass, and it increases the likelihood of turnovers.

1.1 Since the gaps are so big, when we do turn the ball over, the opposition can cut through us with one incisive run or pass because there's huge space to exploit.

1.1.1 When Pep was asked why he prefers short passe, he answered "because we lose the ball less, and when we do, we're well positioned to immediately win it back". In effect, we have achieved the exact opposite. Making the passes harder / higher risk AND putting us in a poor position to recover.

2. Our CMs are asked to push on, so whenever they receive the ball it's generally with back to goal and a defender up their backside, limiting their options and increasing the likelihood of turnovers. When you watch the likes of Mainoo, Mount, Bruno etc...they're almost playing like a CF...receiving the ball with a defender all over them like a rash and facing their own goal.

3. There are no overlaps or underlaps because the full backs tuck inside, to do....I don't know what.

4. Players consistently pop-up in odd positions. We occasionally create overloads, but when we do it's usually Dalot in a pocket or someone equally poorly equipped to pick passes in tight spaces.

5. Where is our defensive line? We don't play a high-line, which contributes to the first problem on the list....but we don't play a low-block either...it's just nothing. It's kind of a "worst of both Worlds" between low block and counter and high-line and press. It's almost like a bizarre middle-block, counter-attack system.

6. The long ball tactics encouraged by EtH create chaos, which causes turnovers...which are exacerbated by problem one.

7. We like to lure the press on, but we're always trying to pass out 4 vs 4 or 5 vs 5 because half our team are standing on the halfway line. This is just asking for trouble, and we usually get it. You want to create a "defensive overload", which is why teams started buying ball-playing GKs...but we don't and are always playing out with equal number defenders vs opposition pressers...and this means passes have to be inch perfect.

8. We play inverted wingers but without overlaps or underlaps, you really want your winger to be attempting to beat the man on the outside...which they're reluctant to do...because that leaves them crossing with their wrong foot. Surely we either need a natural left / right footer running beyond the wide forward OR they need to play on their natural side? The end-result is nearly always players coming back inside into trouble and us losing the ball.
 
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Not commenting on players here, or trying to debate whether we are objectively playing "good" or "bad" football (that much should be obvious).

My sole concern here is to highlight some of the systematic problems with EtHs setup. Feel free to add your own, there are loads!

1. The gaps between our players are huge. This makes it difficult for the man in possession to find a pass, and it increases the likelihood of turnovers.

1.1 Since the gaps are so big, when we do turn the ball over, the opposition can cut through us with one incisive run or pass because there's huge space to exploit.

1.1.1 When Pep was asked why he prefers short passe, he answered "because we lose the ball less, and when we do, we're well positioned to immediately win it back". In effect, we have achieved the exact opposite. Making the passes harder / higher risk AND putting us in a poor position to recover.

2. Our CMs are asked to push on, so whenever they receive the ball it's generally with back to goal and a defender up their backside, limiting their options and increasing the likelihood of turnovers. When you watch the likes of Mainoo, Mount, Bruno etc...they're almost playing like a CF...receiving the ball with a defender all over them like a rash and facing their own goal.

3. There are no overlaps or underlaps because the full backs tuck inside, to do....I don't know what.

4. Players consistently pop-up in odd positions. We occasionally create overloads, but when we do it's usually Dalot in a pocket or someone equally poorly equipped to pick passes in tight spaces.

5. Where is our defensive line? We don't play a high-line, which contributes to the first problem on the list....but we don't play a low-block either...it's just nothing. It's kind of a "worst of both Worlds" between low block and counter and high-line and press. It's almost like a bizarre middle-block, counter-attack system.

6. The long ball tactics encouraged by EtH create chaos, which causes turnovers...which are exacerbated by problem one.

7. We like to lure the press on, but we're always trying to pass out 4 vs 4 or 5 vs 5 because half our team are standing on the halfway line. This is just asking for trouble, and we usually get it.

8. We play inverted wingers but without overlaps or underlaps, you really want your winger to be attempting to beat the man on the outside...which they're reluctant to do...because that leaves them crossing with their wrong foot. Surely we either need a natural left / right footer running beyond the wide forward OR they need to play on their natural side?


1. He's completely clueless on how to coach a structure that's solid in defensive transitions. His Ajax teams had the same problem.

2. We play a sort of JDP style "structured attacking style" when we have the ball in the opposition half where wingers hold extreme width and fullbacks invert, but without any of the coached patterns that other teams execute constantly. It's all "principles" but also very off the cuff and ends up leaving you with Dalot and fecking Martinez getting chances created for them as opposed to your striker and forwards.
 
He’s the most tactically inept manager we’ve had since Fergie and probably one of the worst in the league.

The fact that so many managers, pundits and fans have been able to completely pick apart his tactical set up over and over again over the past two years, and he’s done nothing to change it, is staggering.

Can’t argue that the man hasn’t died on his sword.
 
Tactically he's easily one of the worst in the league.

Team look disjointed, in each season he's deployed a totally different approach which has yielded no fruit.

He fits the analogy managerially of urinating in the wind, awful manager and he can only blame himself has been given resources and even a hierarchical structural change to support his position and he's still rubbish.
 
It's all "principles" but also very off the cuff and ends up leaving you with Dalot and fecking Martinez getting chances created for them as opposed to your striker and forwards.
This was what I was saying in Pt.4...we do occasionally create space for players, but never the players you want to be in space, always players completely ill-equipped to do anything with it
 
Absolute fraud. He’s won us a couple of cups which you have to give him credit for but considering what we all thought we were getting from watching his Ajax teams he’s been a massive let down. Complete charlatan!
 
This was what I was saying in Pt.4...we do occasionally create space for players, but never the players you want to be in space, always players completely ill-equipped to do anything with it

Which is why it was fecking maddening that so many were hand waving away last season just because we had bad injury luck to our backline. Injuries have fecking nothing to do with the coaching/tactics/principles on display.
 
Which is why it was fecking maddening that so many were hand waving away last season just because we had bad injury luck to our backline. Injuries have fecking nothing to do with the coaching/tactics/principles on display.
Again, this was always my point.

Two things can be simultaneously true-.

1) Injuries impact performances / ability to pick up points

2) You shouldn't descend into total, abject chaos when two or three players are missing against vastly inferior opposition
 
Watch Dalot on the 1st goal. In the 2nd minute. That is just a shambles. Switched of or can't be arsed. A manager needs to have his team ready. It should be the end so we can do something this season.
 
Slot talked about this pretty clearly in post-match after the pasting we got. But he still doesn’t change it.

The press is so horribly coordinated and Bruno is constantly upfield, leaving our midfield massively exposed.

I absolutely hate the lack of full back’s overlapping more than anything though. Our wingers have traditionally been so successful because we have overlapping fullbacks who create overloads and so many attacking opportunities come out of it. ten Hag’s tactics basically demand wingers beat 2 players and create opportunities, which is really a big ask.
 
I don't understand why we are not set up like we finished last season.
I am honestly starting to think ETH is deranged, he lives in a bubble where he is the main character and he is always right
 
The frustrating thing for me is that we now have one hell of an infrastructure above him yet the same ridiculous set ups occur game after game. Are they not having discussions with him on how they see United playing? Just a total mess
 
Buy Ugarte, they said. Things will get better, they said. Well, they haven’t! As I’ve mentioned countless times, we desperately need someone who can actually pass the ball. We're Manchester United—we should be controlling the game, especially at home!

Now, this isn’t a dig at Ugarte, by the way. He has his strengths and can be effective in certain situations, but we should be dictating the tempo and dominating possession. And to be fair, as you pointed out, a lot of this comes down to how we're setting up tactically. That’s why we’re looking so disjointed.
 
Its psychology. The players have given up on him. Lombardi used say the top managers get inside players heads - but the players have given up on Ten Hag now. So it doesnt matter what he says or what tactics he employs, if the players arent fired up, which they arent, it all looks like shit. Its 70% psychology and 30 percent tactics.
 
Again, this was always my point.

Two things can be simultaneously true-.

1) Injuries impact performances / ability to pick up points

2) You shouldn't descend into total, abject chaos when two or three players are missing against vastly inferior opposition

Yep. And the truth is our midfield/forward line was pretty fit for most of the year last season apart from Mount. I'd absolutely have some sympathy if we were playing good stuff and just had Evans getting rinsed individually which was costing us results or something, but that's not the case at all.
 
I absolutely hate the lack of full back’s overlapping more than anything though. Our wingers have traditionally been so successful because we have overlapping fullbacks who create overloads and so many attacking opportunities come out of it. ten Hag’s tactics basically demand wingers beat 2 players and create opportunities, which is really a big ask.
On their wrong foot as well
 
Buy Ugarte, they said. Things will get better, they said. Well, they haven’t! As I’ve mentioned countless times, we desperately need someone who can actually pass the ball. We're Manchester United—we should be controlling the game, especially at home!

Now, this isn’t a dig at Ugarte, by the way. He has his strengths and can be effective in certain situations, but we should be dictating the tempo and dominating possession. And to be fair, as you pointed out, a lot of this comes down to how we're setting up tactically. That’s why we’re looking so disjointed.
The lads who we do want on the ball and we do want dictating the game are stood 30 yards away from Ugarte with their backs to goal
 
I've said it somewhere to someone in real life. Last season, the problem isn't that the players are not executing the game plan. The problem is that the game plan was well executed but it turned out to be a shite game plan that doesn't fecking work to win football games.
 
Watch Dalot on the 1st goal. In the 2nd minute. That is just a shambles. Switched of or can't be arsed. A manager needs to have his team ready. It should be the end so we can do something this season.
Truly unbelievable that.
 
In the first 30 mins Bruno was ahead of zirkzee most of the time...which meant spurs had a 5 on 2 in midfield. Clueless considering spurs play one way..
 
I don't understand why we are not set up like we finished last season.
I am honestly starting to think ETH is deranged, he lives in a bubble where he is the main character and he is always right
Don't want to stereotype but does sound like you're describing basically every Dutch manager ever there....and none have been successful in the PL
 
Think it is more mental issue than tactical. Why our players so easily to give up and get run by opponents.
Rashford, no word for this guy. No idea what this guy is thinking when he is been put on the field. Does he think he gets played because he is our product? Or it is because he is a British? Offensively, people just let him run cause he definitely will run into a black hole at the end or back pass to others then lose possession as a result. Contribute nothing in the offensive side. Defensively, trash and 0 help. Does not tackle or play foul to stop the ball.
Bruno, keep frustrated himself and result frustrated the whole team. Not to the captaincy level. Fail to up-level the team but keeping the team spirit go down.
The rest of the team. Mentally and physically issue. Easy to give up. No hunger. No sense of urgency. No sense of playing. No improvement after season and seasons.
 
Not commenting on players here, or trying to debate whether we are objectively playing "good" or "bad" football (that much should be obvious).

My sole concern here is to highlight some of the systematic problems with EtHs setup. Feel free to add your own, there are loads!

1. The gaps between our players are huge. This makes it difficult for the man in possession to find a pass, and it increases the likelihood of turnovers.

1.1 Since the gaps are so big, when we do turn the ball over, the opposition can cut through us with one incisive run or pass because there's huge space to exploit.

1.1.1 When Pep was asked why he prefers short passe, he answered "because we lose the ball less, and when we do, we're well positioned to immediately win it back". In effect, we have achieved the exact opposite. Making the passes harder / higher risk AND putting us in a poor position to recover.

2. Our CMs are asked to push on, so whenever they receive the ball it's generally with back to goal and a defender up their backside, limiting their options and increasing the likelihood of turnovers. When you watch the likes of Mainoo, Mount, Bruno etc...they're almost playing like a CF...receiving the ball with a defender all over them like a rash and facing their own goal.

3. There are no overlaps or underlaps because the full backs tuck inside, to do....I don't know what.

4. Players consistently pop-up in odd positions. We occasionally create overloads, but when we do it's usually Dalot in a pocket or someone equally poorly equipped to pick passes in tight spaces.

5. Where is our defensive line? We don't play a high-line, which contributes to the first problem on the list....but we don't play a low-block either...it's just nothing. It's kind of a "worst of both Worlds" between low block and counter and high-line and press. It's almost like a bizarre middle-block, counter-attack system.

6. The long ball tactics encouraged by EtH create chaos, which causes turnovers...which are exacerbated by problem one.

7. We like to lure the press on, but we're always trying to pass out 4 vs 4 or 5 vs 5 because half our team are standing on the halfway line. This is just asking for trouble, and we usually get it. You want to create a "defensive overload", which is why teams started buying ball-playing GKs...but we don't and are always playing out with equal number defenders vs opposition pressers...and this means passes have to be inch perfect.

8. We play inverted wingers but without overlaps or underlaps, you really want your winger to be attempting to beat the man on the outside...which they're reluctant to do...because that leaves them crossing with their wrong foot. Surely we either need a natural left / right footer running beyond the wide forward OR they need to play on their natural side? The end-result is nearly always players coming back inside into trouble and us losing the ball.
Agree with it all, excellent post to me
 
Its clear that his off the ball set up is dutch league level. In Ajax he had the best team in the country by a mile, who could easily regain control by slightly pushing the other teams into making mistakes. Premier League is different animal, and not just there but also in Europe, teams are being coached by progressive managers who know how to press and create turnovers. We dont know how to do it, and so it doesnt matter we might be " okay" on the ball we still create very little because we cant win the ball in advanced positions. Because we play this prehistoric football.

Unfortunately, this is an issue for more than 13 years and I would include SAF in the discussion too but at least, he was a strong personality and could squeeze out maximum out of key players and we could win so many games 1:0 and with some individual quality. We dont have it now. Also the football developed very fast last 20 years.
 
Think it is more mental issue than tactical. Why our players so easily to give up and get run by opponents.
Rashford, no word for this guy. No idea what this guy is thinking when he is been put on the field. Does he think he gets played because he is our product? Or it is because he is a British? Offensively, people just let him run cause he definitely will run into a black hole at the end or back pass to others then lose possession as a result. Contribute nothing in the offensive side. Defensively, trash and 0 help. Does not tackle or play foul to stop the ball.
Bruno, keep frustrated himself and result frustrated the whole team. Not to the captaincy level. Fail to up-level the team but keeping the team spirit go down.
The rest of the team. Mentally and physically issue. Easy to give up. No hunger. No sense of urgency. No sense of playing. No improvement after season and seasons.
I don't agree it's down to effort. I love to stick the boot in on Rashford but him losing the ball on the halfway line with 9 teammates behind him has no bearing on the first goal.
 
Think it is more mental issue than tactical. Why our players so easily to give up and get run by opponents.
Rashford, no word for this guy. No idea what this guy is thinking when he is been put on the field. Does he think he gets played because he is our product? Or it is because he is a British? Offensively, people just let him run cause he definitely will run into a black hole at the end or back pass to others then lose possession as a result. Contribute nothing in the offensive side. Defensively, trash and 0 help. Does not tackle or play foul to stop the ball.
Bruno, keep frustrated himself and result frustrated the whole team. Not to the captaincy level. Fail to up-level the team but keeping the team spirit go down.
The rest of the team. Mentally and physically issue. Easy to give up. No hunger. No sense of urgency. No sense of playing. No improvement after season and seasons.
I think it’s both. We lose a ton of 50-50s in critical areas and a lot of that has to do with desire/hunger. Clearly the manager is unable to motivate the players to a degree that they give their 100% in all parts of their game.
 
Buy Ugarte, they said. Things will get better, they said. Well, they haven’t! As I’ve mentioned countless times, we desperately need someone who can actually pass the ball. We're Manchester United—we should be controlling the game, especially at home!

Now, this isn’t a dig at Ugarte, by the way. He has his strengths and can be effective in certain situations, but we should be dictating the tempo and dominating possession. And to be fair, as you pointed out, a lot of this comes down to how we're setting up tactically. That’s why we’re looking so disjointed.
Like I just said in his thread. We just got dominated by a midfield of Bentancur, Kulusevski and Maddison. Just good technical players in a positive system. And yet we were focusing on buying a player whose biggest strength is tackling. Backward thinking.
 
Not just ETH. Seems every manager we've employed has us playing with massive gaps between defence, midfield and attack.

Its been a prevalent issue for a long time now. Yet nobody can fix it.
 
It's true, while the players haven't been perfect, I don't know how anyone could blame the players. We could have peak Barcelona with this set-up and we'd still be overrun. I've never seen a manager sabotage his own players with terrible tactics as much as Ten Hag has. Shocking.
 
I just can't understand what he wants us to do, and we're in the 3rd season under him. He's so stubborn with whatever he's trying to do, it never seems to change.

I expected attack minded, structured possession football when we got him :(
 
I remember when we lost 7-0 to Liverpool a lot of posters claimed it was an anomaly. Fast forward to today and you see exactly why we’ve been on the end of some terrible results. Sure Liverpool had a ridiculous xG conversion that day but we’ve also gotten away with some very generous score lines in other defeats.

You could write a paper on how bad he’s been tactically since joining the PL.
 
Not just ETH. Seems every manager we've employed has us playing with massive gaps between defence, midfield and attack.

Its been a prevalent issue for a long time now. Yet nobody can fix it.
I don't really agree with that.

LvG had us reasonably well set-up. We certainly never got battered like we do on the regular now and actually usually did OK in the big games.

OGS had loads of good results but ultimately couldn't find a way of beating mediocre opposition often enough. It wasn't the case that there were huge gaps everywhere though, we just looked devoid of ideas vs low-blocks.

And Jose...he just lost the dressing room because he was too impatient. It wasn't a tactical issue with him
 
Not just ETH. Seems every manager we've employed has us playing with massive gaps between defence, midfield and attack.

Its been a prevalent issue for a long time now. Yet nobody can fix it.
Bruno's complete lack of positional discipline is a huge issue. We'll look better with Mount or Zirkzee playing at 10.
 
we desperately need someone who can actually pass the ball.
It still pains me that this doesn't seem to have been a requirement at any point in the past decade. We treat passing like a bonus, something that's nice to have.
 
We ask way too much from 2 midfielders. No midfielder in the world can do the job ETH ask them to do.
 
Its psychology. The players have given up on him. Lombardi used say the top managers get inside players heads - but the players have given up on Ten Hag now. So it doesnt matter what he says or what tactics he employs, if the players arent fired up, which they arent, it all looks like shit. Its 70% psychology and 30 percent tactics.
I don't think this explains anything the original poster said at all.