Club Sale | It’s done!

[Giggsyking]

Now lets factor in all the business and political analysis of how things work in Qatar . Even if you're right (I think you're being deliberately misleading), he's pretty shite at getting stuff done. Here he says he spent 2 Trillion to get rid of Assad:

Do you understand Arabic?

He clearly said at the end "they asked Qatar to pay it's share from the 2 trillion, but we refused".

Please be accurate with your statments.

 

[Member 125398]

Do you understand Arabic?

He clearly said at the end "they asked Qatar to pay it's share from the 2 trillion, but we refused".

Please be accurate with your statments.

The point is, he's a self professed bulshitter.

Edit: Perhaps you can explain to me how, if his money does not represent the state of Qatar, he successfully argued in a UK court that all his business dealings were carried out in the function of the State of Qatar?

 

[Rood]

Do you understand Arabic?

He clearly said at the end "they asked Qatar to pay it's share from the 2 trillion, but we refused".

Please be accurate with your statments.

Of course he doesn't understand it, he just read the title !

The main point here is that HBJ is one of the richest guys on the planet so previous suggestions that his son can't afford to buy the club with private funds are total bollocks.

 

[Member 125398]

Of course he doesn't understand it, he just read the title !

The main point here is that HBJ is one of the richest guys on the planet so previous suggestions that his son can't afford to buy the club with private funds are total bollocks.

Care to answer the question above?

 

[Rocksy]

Simon stones opinion should be the least to worry about he won’t ever step away from the club’s official line.

Think that’s about right. Glazers can use the Elliot interest to negotiate higher. They will be tight in negotiations.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

The point is, he's a self professed bulshitter.

Edit: Perhaps you can explain to me how, if his money does not represent the state of Qatar, he successfully argued in a UK court that all his business dealings were carried out in the function of the State of Qatar?

Once again you were caught out with posting stuff that doesn't fit the headline you are creating and once again you shift the goalposts when confronted with it. Why do you keep doing it?

 

[laughtersassassin]

There's a cruel irony in going from having just the Glazers as owners who are the worst in the league to having the Glazers and Elliot which is an even worse combo.

I'd rather Jim make a deal with Elliot than the Glazers if that's our only options!

 

[JagUTD]

Can anyone explain why HBJ, who isn't even the guy apparently wanting to buy us, can't just declare his wealth?

Why the need for secrecy? Is it because the UK has laws around how a person gains their wealth which allow us to confiscate their assets on British soil?

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I've maintained for long this is the likeliest outcome, in my opinion. It stems from my belief all of this was never about investment into the club, but instead a way to resolve the dispute between those Glazers that want to sell and those that don't. Each of the Glazers could sell a part of their stake, how much percentage will vary between each of them. Some might pull out entirely. Elliot in turn get part ownership of the club, alongside the remaining Glazers, likely Joel and Avram. The class shares system could be restructured to allow for this. But Elliot would delegate all running of the club to the Glazers anyway as they aren't in the business of running clubs, and would likely have many contingencies within the contract for every possible scenario.

That way everyone gets what they want, more or less. It's ultimately a game of compromise. Those Glazers that want out compromise by getting somewhat less money, as I imagine Elliot would offer less than Qatar for their shares, but resolve the impasse and get money now, particularly if it's true some of their other businesses are struggling. Though, you shouldn't count out some sort of an in-family deal between the Outers and the Inners to make up the difference in cash as well. Joel and Avram on the other hand compromise by taking on an increased risk and ceding some power, but they remain part owners and in charge of the club. Elliot always win the end. If the Glazers succeed, club value increases. If they fail horribly, Elliot could likely oust them and strip the club, or just sell it on. Of course, they could also agree mutually to strip the club completely in due time and split the money accordingly. The club owns many assets, not the least of which a lot of tasty land.

My point is there are many, many ways for a deal to be reached between Glazers and Elliot, some we can't even think about or be aware of. As it stands, I think this will be the outcome here, unless Qatar come in with an offer that no sane person will reject. And as it happens, the Glazers have made sure to emphasize that point - £6bn.

It's what I believe, at least. But I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

The bottom line, which I don't think anyone sensible would disagree with, is that the Glazers aim is getting the most money out of Manchester United. I think you accept that, yes? Whether that's selling now for a premium fee, getting investment now to sell for more later, or by finding a way to get paid billions by staying long-term (effectively a super league or something similar).

There is very little chance they would get the most money out of Manchester United either short term or long term by getting into bed with Elliott. The Glazer's may not be the brightest businessmen but they will realise that. To make a premium after doing that deal would require Ten Hag to perform miracles with no transfer budget and hoping the buyer in a few years doesn't mind that no capital investment has happened in a quarter of a century.

 

[sglowrider]

Can anyone explain why HBJ, who isn't even the guy apparently wanting to buy us, can't just declare his wealth?

Why the need for secrecy? Is it because the UK has laws around how a person gains their wealth which allow us to confiscate their assets on British soil?

Surely you cant be that naive about how the world works? Feckin Ratcliffe moved to Monaco for shits & giggles?

 

[LawCharltonBest]

What time are the Q2 results today?

 

[Licha-Vidic]

The European Club Association met there over the last few days, so that may be where he has spoken to people.

If he had any concrete breaking news, he would have scooped it long ago, in front of BBC website and anywhere else he would.

This just shows it just a chitchat, which he also knows it's not authentic but just people's opinion.

When genuine authentic news about United sale will be scooped you will know immediately. Whoever will get such a news, he will milk it to the end.

So for now sit back and relax.

 

[JagUTD]

Surely you cant be that naive about how the world works? Feckin Ratcliffe moved to Monaco for shits & giggles?

Is Ratcliffe hiding his wealth?

Because what you're talking about isn't relevant to what I am talking about.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Can anyone explain why HBJ, who isn't even the guy apparently wanting to buy us, can't just declare his wealth?

Why the need for secrecy? Is it because the UK has laws around how a person gains their wealth which allow us to confiscate their assets on British soil?

It's more that it's common practice in ME. The reasoning behind is hard to pinpoint but don't think it necessarily have to be with UK laws in mind. But I'm pretty sure he would have to disclose proof of funds to Raine anyway and maybe that would go public later on.

 

[HarryP]

Simon Stone gets way more credit than he deserves just because who his employer is. His history as a United correspondent for the BBC shows that he pretty much only comes out with club's own info. The BBC is known for triple-checking everything before publishing, but Stone doesn't seem to be bothered to do any serious journalistic work at all.

This is nonsense.

Stone is an ultra professional journalist. He is extremely careful with his words and places a high value on accuracy. He only writes stories when he's extremely confident about something and that does often include getting info direct from high level club sources. If you listen to the podcast, Van der Saar sought Stone out directly to ask him what's going on with the sale process. That in itself is telling - people know Simon Stone is very well connected.

If he says he's hearing from high up people that the Glazers are likely to stay and partner with Elliott, then that is very significant.

 

[Member 125398]

Once again you were caught out with posting stuff that doesn't fit the headline you are creating and once again you shift the goalposts when confronted with it. Why do you keep doing it?

You make a fair point and I'm happy to be called on it. It demonstrates how, even in a short bit of information, it is possible to pay attention to one part and omit others to present a premise. The same standard should apply to @Rood and his 'research', where he chooses to omit enormous amounts of government, financial, business and academic analysis into the nature of the structure of Qatari society etc...

On the whole, it's a tiring and fairly pointless debate that boils down to the equivalent of wondering whether we're about sto step on a Russian or Ukrainian land mine.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, say that Rood is correct (and the British judicial system is incorrect) and HBJ's wealth and business dealings are not in any way connected to the Qatari state. Lets examine the consequences of that and if we are comfortable with this man, who if Rood is correct would be a convicted criminal, being connected with Manchester United

 

[TheReligion]

This is nonsense.

Stone is an ultra professional journalist. He is extremely careful with his words and places a high value on accuracy. He only writes stories when he's extremely confident about something and that does often include getting info direct from high level club sources. If you listen to the podcast, Van der Saar sought Stone out directly to ask him what's going on with the sale process. That in itself is telling - people know Simon Stone is very well connected.

If he says he's hearing from high up people that the Glazers are likely to stay and partner with Elliott, then that is very significant.

He hasn’t wrote a story, he’s briefly mentioned something in a podcast.

Stone tows the clubs line which as we know is the narrative being driven by the Glazers.

To my knowledge he’s not been at the forefront of anything, in terms of the sale, so please stop with the meltdown.

None of what he’s mentioned has been reported anywhere else at this point and even if it was he’s simply feeding back third hand opinion.

 

[Bosws87]

This is nonsense.

Stone is an ultra professional journalist. He is extremely careful with his words and places a high value on accuracy. He only writes stories when he's extremely confident about something and that does often include getting info direct from high level club sources. If you listen to the podcast, Van der Saar sought Stone out directly to ask him what's going on with the sale process. That in itself is telling - people know Simon Stone is very well connected.

If he says he's hearing from high up people that the Glazers are likely to stay and partner with Elliott, then that is very significant.

No it’s just straight from the horses mouth what the owners would like you to hear.

But you can spin your wind up merchant crap go for it, wumminator has your number on that one to.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

No it’s just straight from the horses mouth what the owners would like you to hear.

But you can spin your wind up merchant crap go for it, wumminator has your number on that one to.

He said it's from high up people, but people from "the outside looking in" (so people from other clubs etc I assume)

 

[HarryP]

He hasn’t wrote a story, he’s briefly mentioned something in a podcast.

Stone tows the clubs line which as we know is the narrative being driven by the Glazers.

To my knowledge he’s not been at the forefront of anything, in terms of the sale, so please stop with the meltdown.

None of what he’s mentioned has been reported anywhere else at this point and even if it was he’s simply feeding back third hand opinion.

He hasn't written a story on it yet, it doesn't mean he won't soon (or that somebody else won't)

Combine it with all the noise from other sources like Keegan and it's clear that it's looking quite likely that the Glazers will stay.

 

[Rood]

You make a fair point and I'm happy to be called on it. It demonstrates how, even in a short bit of information, it is possible to pay attention to one part and omit others to present a premise. The same standard should apply to @Rood and his 'research', where he chooses to omit enormous amounts of government, financial, business and academic analysis into the nature of the structure of Qatari society etc...

On the whole, it's a tiring and fairly pointless debate that boils down to the equivalent of wondering whether we're about sto step on a Russian or Ukrainian land mine.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, say that Rood is correct (and the British judicial system is incorrect) and HBJ's wealth and business dealings are not in any way connected to the Qatari state. Lets examine the consequences of that and if we are comfortable with this man, who if Rood is correct would be a convicted criminal, being connected with Manchester United

Don't put words in my mouth please - I haven't said anything like that

feel free to back through my posts and quote where you get this from

The only point of discussion here is whether Sheikh Jassim (via his family office founded by his father ) has the funds to buy our club privately - once we can all agree on this specific point then perhaps we can move on to discuss the other tangents you have diverted to

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Q2 results are at 12pm UK time, to answer my own question

 

[HarryP]

No it’s just straight from the horses mouth what the owners would like you to hear.

But you can spin your wind up merchant crap go for it, wumminator has your number on that one to.

Conveying an opinion that the Glazers are likely to stay and backing up Simon Stone as a credible source is being a WUM now is it?

FFS. You wouldn't see it this bad on RAWK or Bluemoon.

 

[Member 125398]

Don't out words in my mouth please - I haven't said anything like that

feel free to back through my posts and quote where you get this from

My apologies if I've misinterpreted you. For clarity, could you confirm whether you are suggesting that the wealth of HBJ is independant of the Qatari state or not?

 

[sglowrider]

Is Ratcliffe hiding his wealth?

Because what you're talking about isn't relevant to what I am talking about.

Of course he is. Why live in a tax free locale?

 

[Mr. Robot]

He hasn't written a story on it yet, it doesn't mean he won't soon (or that somebody else won't)

Combine it with all the noise from other sources like Keegan and it's clear that it's looking quite likely that the Glazers will stay.

You’re a strange chap. I actually think you’re just on a wind up at this point.

 

[Cloud7]

I'm kind of glad that Elliot are buying the club as it's the option that enables us to moan the most

I know this is meant as a joke but I'm sure I saw a fair few posts in here somewhere where people said that they preferred the Glazers to stay on, as at least the fanbase was United against them, whereas we may be divided with different owners

 

[JPRouve]

Surely you cant be that naive about how the world works? Feckin Ratcliffe moved to Monaco for shits & giggles?

Beyond that wealthy people routinely cheat and lie about their worth and the location of their money. This week BNP, la Société Générale, HSBC, Exane and Natixis have been suspected of aiding massive fraud, specifically for foreign clients. Half of these banks have already been accused of money laundering and were in the middle of separate investigations.

 

[arthurka]

Man City's £300m splurge to get Etihad on par with rivals: Champions plan to up capacity to 61,000, with North Stand revamp to take Abu Dhabi owners' infrastructure spend to £1bn

• Redevelopment plans will see Etihad's capacity increase to around 61,000
• The work is set for a November start in the hope of being ready for 2025-26

More seats for give away tickets.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

You make a fair point and I'm happy to be called on it. It demonstrates how, even in a short bit of information, it is possible to pay attention to one part and omit others to present a premise. The same standard should apply to @Rood and his 'research', where he chooses to omit enormous amounts of government, financial, business and acedemic analysis into the nature of the structure of Qatari society etc...

On the whole, it's a tiring and fairly pointless debate that boils down to the equivalent of wondering whether we're about sto step on a Russian or Ukrainian land mine.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, say that Rood is correct (and the British judicial system is incorrect) and HBJ's wealth and business dealings are not in any way connected to the Qatari state. Lets examine the consequences of that and if we are comfortable with this man, who if Rood is correct would be a convicted criminal, being connected with Manchester United

I think it is way easier to discuss the subject with you when you argue like this. I think the basis of this discussion is the Forbes valuation of his wealth, highlighting both the flaws in Forbes' criteria (not a critique against Forbes per se, just shows that you can't take their estimates at face value) but also the cultural differences when it comes to the world of finance. The debate is also founded the diffuseness of 'state bid' or state-backed bid'.

Forgive me for being sceptical, but which court rulings (only found something from a case from right after he stepped down from his PM role) and "government, financial and academic analysis" are you referring to? Not saying you are incorrect just hard to deduct which information you are basing this on. There's a lot of misinformation on the region in general from Western media.

As for connection to the state, there's no point denying that he built the foundation for his wealth via his government roles but since then has "gone private" in that he is doing investments on his own. Could HBJ fund his sons' (HBJ himself said several of his sons were involved, not just Jassim) purchase solely through his family business? It's increasingly looking likely, (didn't think so at first) but at the same time it would also be of importance to the State due to their visions for the country. Am I being comfortable with him owning us? I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that whoever owns us would have done shady dealings when amassing their fortune and prefer not to be state-owned. At the same time I struggle to distance myself from wanting the best for the club sporting-wise and I've yet to be convinced by SJR and INEOS (which I hopefully will be if they are successful).

 

[SolskjaerHasDoneIt]

Man City's £300m splurge to get Etihad on par with rivals: Champions plan to up capacity to 61,000, with North Stand revamp to take Abu Dhabi owners' infrastructure spend to £1bn

• Redevelopment plans will see Etihad's capacity increase to around 61,000
• The work is set for a November start in the hope of being ready for 2025-26

Why are City expanding a stadium that they don't own and can't fill?

 

[Telsim]

The bottom line, which I don't think anyone sensible would disagree with, is that the Glazers aim is getting the most money out of Manchester United. I think you accept that, yes? Whether that's selling now for a premium fee, getting investment now to sell for more later, or by finding a way to get paid billions by staying long-term (effectively a super league or something similar).

There is very little chance they would get the most money out of Manchester United either short term or long term by getting into bed with Elliott. The Glazer's may not be the brightest businessmen but they will realise that. To make a premium after doing that deal would require Ten Hag to perform miracles with no transfer budget and hoping the buyer in a few years doesn't mind that no capital investment has happened in a quarter of a century.

So then why have Elliot stuck around for so long? They are smart enough to know when they are simply being used as leverage against the other bidders. However, Elliot haven't just stuck around, have they? For one, it was reported they had actually sent representatives to watch a game, which was a strange little thing that was never really explained. But let's say those reps just fancied a game while in town. Maybe initially Elliot were just giving it a punt, fishing for a fool to take their financing in a rather large deal. But now this doesn't seem very likely. But then Elliot went ahead and actually changed their bid from just offering financing to actually bidding for a stake in the club, knowing they are going head-to-head with Ratcliffe and Qatar. They've made it to the late stages of the process. Say what you will about that scum, but they are masters of their craft, opportunists of the highest order. They must sense something here. Reliable journos have consistently reiterated the position of the Glazers isn't exactly unanimous and clear, and that there's reluctance on their part to go through with a full sale, and instead opt for a different option. And we know for a fact Joel and Avram are open to such an approach, because they sought out Apollo in the summer, but Apollo denied them. Coincidentally, they decided to "evaluate opportunities" mere months later. Perhaps they have something in mind. Or perhaps they really are this stupid and narcissistic to make deal with the devil. And the devil knows this, so he has showed up. Then it becomes a game of who is smarter? And I'm placing my bets on the guys that have taken on entire countries.

No, I believe there's something afoot with Elliot. God, how I hope I'm wrong.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Why are City expanding a stadium that they don't own and can't fill?

So they can claim they fill it and add extra revenue on the accounts.

 

[sglowrider]

Why are City expanding a stadium that they don't own and can't fill?

That's what I asked earlier? Some scam to bypass ffp? Players salaries hidden under contractors?

 

[sglowrider]

Beyond that wealthy people routinely cheat and lie about their worth and the location of their money. This week BNP, la Société Générale, HSBC, Exane and Natixis have been suspected of aiding massive fraud, specifically for foreign clients. Half of these banks have already accused of money laundering and were in the middle of separate investigations.

That's the bottomline. Everyone that rich have their hands dirty. Issue of degrees only.

 

[JPRouve]

That's the bottomline. Everyone that rich have their hands dirty. Issue of degrees.

And in the case of HBJ, we know that he is in the Panama Papers. He isn't going to tell anyone where and how much money he has.

 

[JagUTD]

Of course he is. Why live in a tax free locale?

Reducing tax isn't the same as hiding wealth. His wealth is quite well known, he's moved to reduce his tax burden.

I'm talking about people who hide their wealth entirely. Which is usually the domain of criminals, corrupt politicians and war criminals.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

So then why have Elliot stuck around for so long? They are smart enough to know when they are simply being used as leverage against the other bidders. However, Elliot haven't just stuck around, have they? For one, it was reported they had actually sent representatives to watch a game, which was a strange little thing that was never really explained. But let's say those reps just fancied a game while in town. Maybe initially Elliot were just giving it a punt, fishing for a fool to take their financing in a rather large deal. But now this doesn't seem very likely. But then Elliot went ahead and actually changed their bid from just offering financing to actually bidding for a stake in the club, knowing they are going head-to-head with Ratcliffe and Qatar. They've made it to the late stages of the process. Say what you will about that scum, but they are masters of their craft, opportunists of the highest order. They must sense something here. Reliable journos have consistently reiterated the position of the Glazers isn't exactly unanimous and clear, and that there's reluctance on their part to go through with a full sale, and instead opt for a different option. And we know for a fact Joel and Avram are open to such an approach, because they sought out Apollo in the summer, but Apollo denied them. Coincidentally, they decided to "evaluate opportunities" mere months later. Perhaps they have something in mind. Or perhaps they really are this stupid and narcissistic to make deal with the devil. And the devil knows this, so he has showed up. Then it becomes a game of who is smarter? And I'm placing my bets on the guys that have taken on entire countries.

No, I believe there's something afoot with Elliot. God, how I hope I'm wrong.

Well for starters a group of vultures like Elliot aren't going to walk away because they don't fancy their chances. They'll hover around a starving child for as long as it takes them to die before eating them. If the kid lives, they'll fly off to find another starving thing.

And it's not that they don't have a chance. But it would be a very desperate move from the Glazers and there's no way it would be preferable to getting near £6bn from a full buyer with their ultimate goal being to get as much money as possible from the club.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

And in the case of HBJ, we know that he is in the Panama Papers. He isn't going to tell anyone where and how much money he has.

INEOS was also mentioned by association with Mossack Fonseca if I'm not mistaken. Think it comes down to who is better to hide their skeletons than the other.

 

[Member 125398]

I think it is way easier to discuss the subject with you when you argue like this. I think the basis of this discussion is the Forbes valuation of his wealth, highlighting both the flaws in Forbes' criteria (not a critique against Forbes per se, just shows that you can't take their estimates at face value) but also the cultural differences when it comes to the world of finance. The debate is also founded the diffuseness of 'state bid' or state-backed bid'.

Forgive me for being sceptical, but which court rulings (only found something from a case from right after he stepped down from his PM role) and "government, financial and academic analysis" are you referring to? Not saying you are incorrect just hard to deduct which information you are basing this on. There's a lot of misinformation on the region in general from Western media.

As for connection to the state, there's no point denying that he built the foundation for his wealth via his government roles but since then has "gone private" in that he is doing investments on his own. Could HBJ fund his sons' (HBJ himself said several of his sons were involved, not just Jassim) purchase solely through his family business? It's increasingly looking likely, (didn't think so at first) but at the same time it would also be of importance to the State due to their visions for the country. Am I being comfortable with him owning us? I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that whoever owns us would have done shady dealings when amassing their fortune and prefer not to be state-owned. At the same time I struggle to distance myself from wanting the best for the club sporting-wise and I've yet to be convinced by SJR and INEOS (which I hopefully will be if they are successful).

I'll take the opportunity to apologise for being short with you the the other day, having responded to your post without really taking the time to read or digest it properly. I'm genuinely happy to be challenged on anything I say and happy to revise when exposed to new information.

I agree that everything about this is ridiculously complex although I'll hold fire on debating this further at the moment as my understanding was that @Rood was trying to present the case that HBJ's wealth was independant of the Qatari state. I await clarity on that issue. It may be that the answer is both yes and no, therefore it's probably worth examining whether or not it would be wise or ethical for United to get into bed with a character like HBJ and what the potential pitfalls might be.