GOAT Player and Manager combined

[Oranges038]

Guardiola - not a great player, would have remembered about as fondly as Mendieta or Guti had he not become a top manager.

Zidane great player - but he managed a team full of superstars to a few trophies- he had one of the easiest jobs on football at that time.

They aren't for me.

Great players who also became great managers

Ancellotti
Cruyff
Dalgish

 

[harms]

Fair point. He only moved to Real though at what, 28/29? And tbf they were a joke of a club in terms of what they won with the talent they had in that era.

Well, the Juventus side he was playing in was undoubtedly the strongest side in the world for half a decade, making it into CL finals 3 times in a row (winning once) – and they were very close to making a 4th consecutive appearance if not for Keane's superhuman performance that somehow dragged United into the 1999 final in their place.

Just look at the players he was playing with – pre-injury Del Piero, Davids, Deschamps, Inzaghi, Ferrara, Montero, Peruzzi, with Lippi of all people at the helm. I'd say that that team was even better than the early 00's Madrid – and it's fair to say that they've... slightly underperformed in terms of the trophies.

 

[harms]

Best

If we're nitpicking, I'm not sure that Best is in that category. Talent-wise – sure, but in the he ended up with 5 or so world class seasons before essentially giving up on top level football. He had never hit his 19/20 years old performance level in 1967/68 season again as well. The likes of Platini and van Basten definitely deserve a place above him career-wise, despite how much I obviously adore him.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Not in top rank but Roberto Mancini has done plenty in both roles.

 

[SinNombre]

If we're nitpicking, I'm not sure that Best is in that category. Talent-wise – sure, but in the he ended up with 5 or so world class seasons before essentially giving up on top level football. He had never hit his 19/20 years old performance level in 1967/68 season again as well. The likes of Platini and van Basten definitely deserve a place above him career-wise, despite how much I obviously adore him.

I can't disagree with that.

Best is just my United bias.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Pep just had a huge impact on football. It seems like he's an icon for most of the younger progressive coaches. Tuchel and Nagelsmann seem to worship him, Flick called him the bitw recently, ten Hag followed him to Bayern, from what I remember even Klopp used Barcelona match films to illustrate pressing ideas in his earlier days as a coach and Löw seemed to develop his side in a more dominant direction around the time Guardiola arrived as well. He's had a lasting effect on Spanish and German football at the very least. Zidane doesn't seem to have nearly the same status.

Yeah but that philosophy isn’t even Pep’s. Pep’s style is massively influenced by Michels and Cruyff’s total football, and to an extent Louis Van Gaal. Pep just expanded on that, and the managers that followed expanded on that. Pep might have taken it further which others followed but much of the credit shouldn’t be his.

 

[sun_tzu]

It should be noted that Clough didn't play most of his career in the second tier because he couldn't cut it in the top tier. He was a prime reason why his team got promoted, then suffered a career ending injury almost immediately after starting in the first division. One of the great what-ifs.

Erm thats actually not true
Played for Middlesborough 1955 to 1961 in the second division.... they never won promotion
Moved to Sunderland who were in the 2nd division
1961-1962 he played a full season and they didn't get promoted
1962-1963 played about half the season and got injured and Sunderland didnt get promoted
1963-1964 he played no games and sunderland got promoted so he certainly wasn't a prime reason they got promoted
1964-1965... played 3 games in the top flight and retired as he never really recovered from the injury sustained a season and a half before

So he got his injury in the second division and the only time a club got promoted with him on the books is ironically they only season he didn't kick a ball ... so as I say not a prime reason for promotion

 

[do.ob]

Yeah but that philosophy isn’t even Pep’s. Pep’s style is massively influenced by Michels and Cruyff’s total football, and to an extent Louis Van Gaal. Pep just expanded on that, and the managers that followed expanded on that. Pep might have taken it further which others followed but much of the credit shouldn’t be his.

You can only invent the wheel once. I agree that Cruyff's impact seems to be greater and that he certainly heavily influenced Guardiola, but I don't think it diminishes the status that Pep enjoys among his peers.

 

[TwoSheds]

I like the last part and I know we're both aware enough to righlty rate Guardiola above Smicer. Can't say I ever watched a huge number of Guardiola's performances in his playing days, probably around 10, but that was enough to see he was above average as a footballer.

I also get what you're saying about not judging players on trophy hauls and I would agree but only to an extent. Once it goes past a certain point I think you actually can. Winning multiple league titles in one of the biggest leagues in the world for one of the most famous clubs in the world while being an important part of said team which can be gleamed from looking at appearance stats while having longevity at such a club absolutely does say something about your ability to me. Throw in international appearances for a good standard of team (although Spain were somewhat disappointing in those days) and the cup competitions won and it gets to a point where I think you can begin to make assumptions like those.

I wouldn't call league wins as random trophies to list, winning many of them show that you were playing for top dog in said country, and if that's a country with a strong league then that says more about the standard of team you were good enough to get into than if you just won many cups or the odd cup. It doesn't mean that anyone who didn't win loads of leagues isn't any good but to win lots of them while playing a lot of the time for a big club in a big league pretty much does.

Perhaps it wouldn't be a safe to make such an assumption 100% of the time but you're not going to be wrong often at all. Remember, we only need 'above average' for it to be true.

John O'Shea has 5 PL titles and almost 500 appearances for Man Utd. I love Jonno but he's not much above average.

 

[Chipper]

John O'Shea has 5 PL titles and almost 500 appearances for Man Utd. I love Jonno but he's not much above average.

Not much above average is still above average.

Even if we were to say he was one of those who was actually average or below, do you not think he'd be a rarity? We take all the players with 5 league titles or more for a big club in a big league and make two lists. One list has above average players on it, one list average or below average players. I think the first list is going to be much longer.

Again, I wouldn't say that such a trophy haul 100% guarantees the player was above average but it's going to be true a lot more often than not, and as a percentage you won't find many in the average/below average list.

I think that's true of a lot of things in life, certain things are generally true so you can begin to expect things based off of them. It's a reasonable assumption, and thing to say in general conversation but it doesn't mean that it will be true in every single example. The richest teams win the league - (but what about Leicester when they did it?) for example. I'd be in the camp that says it's ok to say the richest teams win the league even if Leicester did it while not.

I don't really know why I'm going off on this tangent anyway when the main point is that Guardiola was above average and we both agree on that from having seen him play. Well I know I have, I'm assuming you have too.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

I'd go with;

1 Cruyff
2 Zidane
3 Pep

Pep was not a GOAT as a player

 

[Tarrou]

Pep was not a GOAT as a player

if you have to be a GOAT in each it's a very small list

maybe just Cruyff?

but the question is which is the best combined

 

[TommiHelm]

Mostly just agree with the ones mentioned. Cruyff would probably be my pick of the "big" ones.

I'd mention del Bosque, Muñoz, and Michels of the less mentioned to.

And I feel like someone like Lobanovskyi would have ended up in some much bigger teams both as a player and manager if football was like it is today when he was at his best.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Cruyff by some distance.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

SAF - 5 as a player, 15 as a coach. If Messi/whoever = 1 GOAT, SAF must be 1,5 GOAT at least, he is a light year ahead

 

[led_scholes]

It has to be Cruyff. Zidane is a top 100 as a player. Pep? Between 500 and 1000.

Puskas seemed to have a bright start as a manager reaching the Champions League final with Panathinaikos in 1970 (losing from Cruyff's Ajax) and winning a few leagues there, but failed everywhere else.

 

[bosnian_red]

Can only be between Cruyff and Zidane.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Zidane is a top 100 as a player

100? Really? That is harsh mate

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Big John Terry:
Player (9/10)
Manager (TBC)
Playa (10/10)

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Ancelotti

 

[Oranges038]

Kevin Keegan

 

[SilentStrike]

Kevin Keegan

I thought about him. Excellent player but didn't know how to rate him as a coach.

 

[GameOn]

Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Zidane

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Rijkaard?

 

[led_scholes]

100? Really? That is harsh mate

Well he probably ranks somewhere around 65 for me, but didn't want to say top 65. It sounds awkward.

 

[GMok]

Controversial- but I think both Zidane (less so) and Pep have been overrated as players.
Pep was in his own works (something like) a 3rd division player with a first division mentality.
Zidane has some great moments sure, but I feel often overrated as a player from a careers perspective. Again, I recognise this is controversial.

This comment is actually from Klopp, not Pep.
As for the OP, it has to be Cruijff. However, the complete dismissal of Guardiola seems bit over the top. Cruijff himself picked Pep to play as a deep-lying playmaker. And he was an integral part of their dream team in 1990. Not the best player in the world, but quite good nonetheless.

Another shout-out will be Antonio Conte. Captain of a great Juventus side, and a very good coach. Although his value has diminished a bit since the Chelsea sacking. Doing good with Inter, but should have won the league last year.

 

[Ramos]

Only 7 players won EC as a player and as a coach: Munoz, Trapp, Cruyff, Ancelotti, Rijkaard, Pep and Zidane.

Only 3 won WC as both: Zagallo, Beckenbauer and Deschamps.

Ony 1 won the Euro's as both: Vogts.

It has to be between one of those. Zidane needs to take a crack at the NT, then we'll know.

 

[Ajax Forever]

Cruyff.

 

[Tottenhamguy]

Not in top rank but Roberto Mancini has done plenty in both roles.

You could say he was practically the manager when he was at Sampdoria with the influence he had on the team.. half the player's they signed were scouted through him.

 

[simplyared]

Cruyff for me is the obvious choice. However an interesting one is Sir Bobby Robson. One of footballs true ambassadors. His managerial achievments go without saying. His playing caree probably less likely known on here. However, playing in the old inside forward position he represented his country on 20 occasions.

 

[Infordin]

Best player and worst manager? Henry?

Worst player and best manager? Mourinho?

Maradona wins that by a mile

 

[Needham]

Given that cruyff is the obvious answer, I’ll ask a question about a player/manager a few others are mentioning?

does anyone else think Zidane was a little overrated as a player? Someone said he’s the main reason France won in 98 and that’s patently untrue, the defence was the cornerstone of that side for me. I’ll give him his dues in Euro 2000. I’m not saying he was Jesse Lingard or anything, he was excellent, but I don’t think he was quite the player some would have you believe, I think his highlight real suggests he was brilliant more often than he was.

Also, to be somewhat on topic, he hasn’t really revolutionised or shaped the game in any way at Madrid as a manager, despite his success, unlike Pep or Cruyff who’ve had Far greater impacts. I think RM is a bit of a perfect storm for zidane really, but that’s tough to prove, just a hunch

As a player he's 2nd or 3rd tier in the world's greatest ranks. But as a manager he's barely 50 and just getting going. If he ends up with say 6 CLs and 4 or 5 La Ligas he wins this thread.

 

[antohan]

Cruyff

Beckenbauer and Zidane batlle for a distant 2nd place.

Beckenbauer edges it IMO as a GOAT player while, frankly, I don't see Zidane anywhere near GOAT status for either, but firmly in the next tier.

 

[Adamsk7]

It will end up being Zidane before long because I think he’s a shoe in as a future France boss and with their conveyor belt of talent, you wouldn’t bet against him winning a World Cup or Euros.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Not even a contest. Cruyff.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Given that cruyff is the obvious answer, I’ll ask a question about a player/manager a few others are mentioning?

does anyone else think Zidane was a little overrated as a player? Someone said he’s the main reason France won in 98 and that’s patently untrue, the defence was the cornerstone of that side for me. I’ll give him his dues in Euro 2000. I’m not saying he was Jesse Lingard or anything, he was excellent, but I don’t think he was quite the player some would have you believe, I think his highlight real suggests he was brilliant more often than he was.

Also, to be somewhat on topic, he hasn’t really revolutionised or shaped the game in any way at Madrid as a manager, despite his success, unlike Pep or Cruyff who’ve had Far greater impacts. I think RM is a bit of a perfect storm for zidane really, but that’s tough to prove, just a hunch

No, i don't think he is overrated, if you have watched him play throughout his career. It may look this way nowadays because of the out-of-this-world numbers both Ronaldo and Messi have been tallying up season after season. Some of his contemporaries, like Beckham and Roberto Carlos, have said that he's the best player they've ever watched kick a ball. Xavi claimed that he was the best player in the world from the early 90s to the early 00s. I agree with them and i'll just say that back then, it was a joy to watch him on the football pitch. His vision and his ability to find pockets of space was superb. And you always got the feeling that the ball was stuck to his feet, you just couldn't get it away from him. On top of that, he possessed a tremendous ability to dictate the pace of a game but his dribbling skills allowed him to do it further up the pitch where the spaces were more congested instead of dropping deeper. Finally, you have sheer elegance and finesse added to the mix. What he didn't possess was consistency but, as i mentioned earlier, it's a bit unfair to compare not only Zidane's but anyone's (lack of) consistency to Messi/Ronaldo's. The latter two have set standards that (i believe) will only drop again after their retirement.

I tend to agree with your assessment of his managerial skills. I feel that he's over reliant on the wings to create chances and that the distances between his midfielders and his attackers leave a lot to be desired. But, contrary to popular belief (on the Caf), you don't become that successful by simply working with very good players. His biggest strength has been his in-game management. There were numerous times, if you follow La Liga a bit, when a substitution here, a little tweak in the tactics there etc. did the trick for Real Madrid and turned 0 or 1 point to 3. This is one of his biggest strengths. Plus, if we are to consider only the managers who revolutionized the game as the truly greats, we'd be left with just a handful of names.

Overall, Cruyff is indeed the obvious answer. All you have to do is look at the status of Ajax in the footballing world before and after his time there as a player and also at how successful Barcelona became after he transformed the club from top to bottom (16 of their 26 La Liga titles and all 5 of their CL trophies won since 1990)

 

[KirkDuyt]

Cruijff, rather obvious.

One of the best players of all time and a hugely influential trainer.

Boring answer aside, I always thought Mark van Bommel had all the making of a great trainer. Granted he wasn't that amazing a player, but so far he's an even worse coach. Guess you can be too much of a cnut for your own good

 

[Speedy30]

Dalglish needs a mention. He was an actual player-manager when that was still a thing and he was one of the best at both at the same time. He then carried that onto Blackburn and won them the league as well.

 

[Nani Nana]

Even though he was definitely more consistently influential in the 2006 World Cup rather than the 1998 World Cup, I wouldn't say that he literally dragged France past Spain for example — Ribéry and Vieira were both exceptional in that match as well. Furthermore, for the tournament as a whole, the likes of Thuram and Makelélé (who returned from retirement at almost the same time to collectively propel France) were instrumental too.

That being said, while I do think that Zinédine Zidane is retroactively considered greater than he actually was...week-in and week-out, mostly because of hyperbolic narratives, the purpose of the post wasn't to microscopically dissect his performances and accomplishments in an effort to denigrate him (as he was clearly a fabulous leader and player at his pomp), but to shine light on the abstract qualities that put Cruyff on a tier of his own...

• No singe player is as synonymous with a distinct aesthetic and ideology as Cruyff with totaalvoetbal, perhaps not even Pelé with joga bonito as he has to share some of the limelight with Garrincha and Ronaldo and Ronaldinho, particularly in the modern sense of the term.
• First player to win 3 consecutive Ballon D'Or titles while guiding Ajax to three consecutive European Cup titles...not just scoring a plethora of goals, but being the on-field director of the team. Mind you, Ajax were mostly a regional and national power before him, and he took them to continental super club status (like Beckenbauer and Müller with Bayern in a similar-ish timeframe).
• You could argue that no one was as influential on the future of a club as Cruyff with Ajax — that includes his coach Michels (himself one of the All-Time greats), and all the illustrious players they produced in the years to come (from van Basten to Bergkamp to Davids to Frenkie) with Cruyff acting as a sort of overarching spiritual/ideological cornerstone. And that influence spread far and wide in Dutch football as a whole:

Gullit: Cruyff put Dutch football on the map.

• You could also argue that he is one of the, if not the, most influential figures in the fortunes of Barcelona — revitalized them as a player to win La Liga after a period of 13 years, overhauled what's now a sacred academy in La Masia, coached them to their ever first European Cup title and 4 La Liga titles (double of what they had won in the last 20 years), and provided a lot of principles for Guardiola and Enrique (who went on to win 3 Champions League titles with the club)...

How Cruyff reinvented football at Barca.

• Perfected the now commonplace False 9 role...carrying the torch from in-the-hole forwards like Di Stéfano in the years gone by, and reached a peak that wasn't matched till the emergence of a certain Messi (influenced by one of Cruyff's most ardent disciples).
• Shoot, he even influenced the progression of goalkeeping while at Barcelona!

...and so forth.

So while the likes of Zidane and Beckenbauer were exemplary in their own right and boast fantastic resumés, I just feel that Cruyff's pioneering spirit and influence on different institutions and the network of the game itself via limitless Cruyffisms (like the derivation of Guardiola's juego de posición for example) is so overwhelming that the best his competitors can vie for is the 2nd spot.

Fair enough, great post.

 

[Piratesoup]

He's not up the standard of Cruyff, but I'd like to mention Ernst Happel. One of the great players produced by Austria and among the greatest managers in history.