I'll also add that writing off whole seasons is rank cowardice and terrible management of the club. The club must sack the underperforming manager and replace them with a manager that will improve results and get us to finish as high as possible.
Going against the grain
- Thread starter NicolaSacco
- Start date
I agree, that's the mentality we should be after.
I wonder if the board is cowardly hiding behind Amorim's so called rebuild, because they do not have any ambition, nor they know what to do at this point. Or we are as poor as a church mouse and they are afraid that a new manager might demand new players.
Just like how we could have sacked ETH despite the takeover process, when Murtough etc were still there. And later when we had the initial staff from INEOS. Just what were they thinking? Even when it was mathematically impossible to get champions league, ETH still got to the FA Cup final.
INEOS are terrified of getting hammered for their disastrous start as owners and think it'll get even worse if they make the decision to sack Amorim this summer rather than doing what they did with Ten Hag and letting him limp into next season as a dead man walking until they sack him in October when the pressure and criticism is all aimed at him. Then we'll be writing off the season for the 3rd year running so that they can protect their reputation.
This idea that we can do things on a budget both on and off the pitch and buy a bunch of kids on the cheap or budget players and try to be a better version of Brighton or resurrect the Busby Babes/Class of 92 is stupid and will never work. This has never been done in the history of football. The only way we get out if this is by money. Lots of it. And by get out of this I mean challenging for the Prem/Champions League and not 5th-15th with a FA cup every now and again and tugging on our wieners because we beat Man City but are still sht.
Protect their reputation? I think their are worse than the Glazers.
I consider them at fault for not sacking ETH in the summer and I believe it to be a disaster letting Amorim break all negative records possible this season and the next.
We are going from bad to a complete mess under them, debt or no debt, budget cutting or not.
Both the glazers and INEOS are at fault for not sacking ETH. He should have been sacked long before the takeover was in process in early 2024. He should have been sacked before christmas when we still had Arnold and Murtough in charge. Instead they just sat there and let him ruin the entire season. INEOS coming in and then keeping him was just as bad, if not worse, because they got carried away with the FA Cup fever when they should have been cooler heads.
Their reputation is shit now for the way they handled ETH and the Ashworth debacle, it gets even worse if they now sack the guy they basically booted Ashworth to get. Instead they'll take the cowardly option of keeping him into next season and letting him hang himself with bad results by October, so the story is as much about Amorim failing after being backed as it is about them being a shambles.
Yeah we should spend big money on players instead. I reckon we should buy Pogba, Maguire, Lukaku, Di Maria, Sancho, Antony, AWB, Hojlund, and Mount. We be guaranteed to win the league then. None of this "trying to buy smart" nonsense.
Yeah we should buy Van Der Beek, Dan James, Bailly, Rojo, Weghorst, Pellistri, Malacia, Zirkzee, Mjebri, Blind, Darmian, Ighalo instead. None of this 'Buying the league' nonsense like literally every club has done. We'll do it for a bag of crisps and show those high spenders
Ruben Amorim's tactics are very much NOT rigid and micromanaged. The formation stays essentially the same, in and out of possession, the tactics within that set up fluctuate greatly depending on opponents and team sheet and anyone that can't see that is as thick as a mattress croissant.
There's a bit more to it than that, the Glazers were already buying shares in United before this even happened, all this did was accelerate the timeframe of them gaining control, ultimately the real reason the club is in this position was the decision to become a public company
I know the results have been terrible and we are still succumbing to brain fart moments at the back and desperately poor finishing upfront. However - I can see the team beginning to develop a better way of playing in sequences and some players seem to be getting better / more consistent in how they are playing.
We are by no means all the way there yet, and Ineos keeping the cupboard bare doesn't help us deal with injuries and suspensions that again add to the chaos at times.
Looking past all that I can see green shoots of recovery but they are very fragile. INEOS can still grasp failure from the jaws of progress and if we start to get briefs about "developing academy players" rather than investing in better players that Amorim needs then I can see those green shoots getting trampled in the mud.
We are by no means all the way there yet, and Ineos keeping the cupboard bare doesn't help us deal with injuries and suspensions that again add to the chaos at times.
Looking past all that I can see green shoots of recovery but they are very fragile. INEOS can still grasp failure from the jaws of progress and if we start to get briefs about "developing academy players" rather than investing in better players that Amorim needs then I can see those green shoots getting trampled in the mud.
My point was that we stopped hiring world class managers after Mourinho. We had Ole, Ten Hag and Amorim. Out of 6 main managers we had only Van Gaal and Mourinho who were serial winners. I like Amorim and hope he has success but he's definitely not proven at the top level.
That was very similar to Ten Hag as well. I see a lot of people commenting about us "recycling" managers but we have taken a lot of risk with not hiring proven managers.
I'm not sure we've ever hired anyone people saw as currently amongst the best in the game. What I do think is telling/no coincidence is the managers who came with trophy winning pedigree and decent CL experience all won trophies. Amorim will win the EL and we'll continue this trend.
Van Gaal was sacked immediately after winning the FA Cup and he finished 5th(same points as City, if I recall, if not very close to 4th). At least back then, we had some standards, CL football, or were out. Now we have no standards, no objectives, nothing. We just, are.
I'd also add we regressed under LVG in regards to playing style. We could control the midfield even in his first season (after he switched formations a few times) but that second season had no cutting edge and it was his own fault for selling RVP and then panic buying Martial (which did prove to work out initially).
It was that obsession with keeping the ball all the time and doing nothing with it. We conceded few goals but we barely scored and we were terrible to watch.
Even so, we were still hard to play against and we were there, top4, top5, not like now.
Nah RVP was cooked by then - LVG's issue was both his and the clubs in terms of recruitment. Had we signed decent attacking players the future would have looked different because we've never had so much control as then. Instead we signed Depay, Di Maria, Falcao, Martial. Two of them were kids, Falcao was injured and Di Maria, probably the last world class player we had, obviously hated Manchester/England.
The season we signed Di Maria/Falco, Sanchez moved to Arsenal, Diego Costa moved to Chelsea, Lukaku went to Everton, Mane + Tadic moved to Soton, the players were there we just never looked at them.
1) An acceptance that whilst we should not have started from here, here is where we are and where we start.
2) Our past is our history, our future is in front of us and we have to "shake the dust etc..." and start looking forward.
3) Ruben is one of the best young manager/coaches around, give him the tools and let him get on with the job.
2) Our past is our history, our future is in front of us and we have to "shake the dust etc..." and start looking forward.
3) Ruben is one of the best young manager/coaches around, give him the tools and let him get on with the job.
It is very hard to judge Mainoo given his stop start season and injuries, he is young still and as such inconsistent performances should be expected, has he been pushed too far too soon, are expectations too high?
What I have seen from him this season makes me start to wonder about his attitude and application, could he be the latest victim of poor advice from his entourage, is there a hangover from players like Sancho who he would have been around as he was breaking through?
My contentious point is that I think the jury is still way out on Mainoo and that he has (to a certain extent) been over hyped, right now I think his career is in the balance, can he crack on now and become one of the best players of his generation? or does he tank it all like so many have done for us in recent years?
If we were offered £100m+ for him in the summer I would be very tempted (but that ain't happening)
What I have seen from him this season makes me start to wonder about his attitude and application, could he be the latest victim of poor advice from his entourage, is there a hangover from players like Sancho who he would have been around as he was breaking through?
My contentious point is that I think the jury is still way out on Mainoo and that he has (to a certain extent) been over hyped, right now I think his career is in the balance, can he crack on now and become one of the best players of his generation? or does he tank it all like so many have done for us in recent years?
If we were offered £100m+ for him in the summer I would be very tempted (but that ain't happening)
That's a good one and I agree with it.
However I also feel that "anyone that can't see that" includes at least half the squad
Man Utd has had terrible transfer policies since 2008. As much as I like Fergie, the last couple of transfer windows were awful. We sold Ronaldo and Tevez in 2009 and we never got the proper replacements for them. We bought the washed Owen and Antonio Valencia. We also bought the likes of Obertan, Bebe, Smalling and Cleverly.
In 2012, we were supposed to get Lewandowski and Evra said that Sir Alex planned to get Ronaldo and Bale as well. All of these transfers failed, and in 2013 our target was Fabregas and we had a panic buy of Fellaini instead. Aside from Bruno and RVP I can't think of any signing that has had a big impact on our team.
Every so called "rebuild" since 2006 has been bad and atrocious. Hopefully, Amorim will get the right players to fit his system and I hope he'll become a long term manager for us.
In 2012, we were supposed to get Lewandowski and Evra said that Sir Alex planned to get Ronaldo and Bale as well. All of these transfers failed, and in 2013 our target was Fabregas and we had a panic buy of Fellaini instead. Aside from Bruno and RVP I can't think of any signing that has had a big impact on our team.
Every so called "rebuild" since 2006 has been bad and atrocious. Hopefully, Amorim will get the right players to fit his system and I hope he'll become a long term manager for us.
The transfers have not been great, however:
We didn't buy Cleverley (please spell his name right) he was an academy product. Smalling was a young player brought from the lower leagues for peanuts, and didn't have a bad career with us at all. Also, you can take what Evra said with a pinch of salt. We were linked with Bale and Ronaldo but how does he know Fergie wanted them? He was a player, not a coaching or scouting staff. Just because the moves didn't pan out doesn't mean it was a complete failure. Bale turned us down and went to Madrid, Ronaldo was trying to get new contracts, how can we control that?
I was actually looking at Evra's statement and he said it on the official Man Utd podcast back in 2020. Sir Alex demanded from the Glazers to allocate 200 million pounds for Bale and Ronaldo but they refused apparently. I really doubt that Evra would lie about this.
Yes, Smalling was a solid player but he was never a proper replacement for Rio and Vidic. Obertan and Bebe were huge flops, and Cleverley was a good player in that winning season. Only Fergie could turn these average players to be world class but Moyes certainly couldn't. The squad needed to be better for Moyes to truly challenge for the title.
I`d well believe Sir Alex was trying to get Bale and wanted Ronaldo back. That would have been a great double buy. The idea he had nothing to do recruiting or scouting is just wrong. He was talking about Figo, for example, well before that player was known in the UK, he wanted Veron and got him - sad that didn`t work out, Veron had a lovely touch and great passing but he couldn`t tune into the English game and was caught out too much by the pace at which it moves.
Many people think we've actually improved on and off the pitch since the Fergie days. I can't say I agree.
The imagined trio was supposed to be Ronaldo (LW), Bale (RW), and Lewandowski (CF). And Lewa is arguably a better player than Benzema, so our front three line was supposed to better than BBC that Real had. Man Utd at that time was arguably a better team than Real 3 UCL finals in 4 years and multiple league titles vs Madrid who didn't wim UCL in a over a decade.
I believe that we had a UCL title winning squad in 2013 as well even without them, were it not for that unjust Nani red card. Add Fabregas in the mix and a couple of signings and imagine the kind of squad we would have. Fergie was still a legend where he won comfortably league with those average players like Smalling, Jones, Wellbeck and Cleverely. No other coach will ever be able to win EPL with that kind of a squad...
I would sell Amad before I sold Mainoo
A full pre season means nothing if you don't have quality.
A big disagree there, I think we would have been dismantled by that Dortmund side at the time. The year previously we had been knocked out of the Champions League at the group stage and then absolutely outplayed by Bilbao in the Europa League. That 2012-2013 team had a lot of cracks that were papered over by Sir Alex's genius.
We should sell Dalot, promote Kamason and sign Quenda.
We should sell Garnacho and sign Cherki.
We should sell Garnacho and sign Cherki.
You are exaggarating a bit. That Dortmund side was great but Man Utd won the EPL that year with ease. 2011/12 was kind of weird but there were still very fresh wounds from that Barca final. Man City was out of group too and 6th placed Chelsea won the title.
In 12/13 we had Van Persie in our team and a huge motive to win UCL as well because of Sir Alex's retirement. The only side that could truly beat us was that star studded Bayern side. The only true side that demolished us was that Barca 2011 team, but we played the wrong formation. We shouldn't have played 4-4-2 and we should have had Park in the starting lineup for Messi.
Good one. I think he will just fade into 'another winger' - Aaron Lennon, Andros Townsend, Stewart Downing etc level
Also it wrong of us to give him that new contract with those huge wages, only an extra 20/30k would've been correct. Now we are stuck with another average player on high wages.
Let's give INEOS some time and space to operate.
The club is in a bad way. We might think the janitorial staff isn't a big deal but maybe there is 4x compared to Aston Villa.
The club is in a bad way. We might think the janitorial staff isn't a big deal but maybe there is 4x compared to Aston Villa.
People need to calm down about Mainoo, the lad doesn`t appear to have an attitude problem - I doubt he`s learnt anything from Sancho about wrong priorities as somebody thinks, he might be want away because he needs stability to produce more but with the right support and coaching he is likely to become very good for us.
Amad would be a great squad player in any decent United side.
He's not world class by any means but to compare him to Stewart Downing ffs.
Hojlund in a better team would be a 20 goal per PL season striker.
Wow - Amad's taking a pasting in this thread for reasons I'm unsure of. He's showing a lot more promise in a dysfunctional side than most would be able to, and has shown himself to be adept at keeping possession, pressing effectively, creating opportunities for others, and being a goal threat himself.
So while you all have a right to an opinion, especially in a going against the grain thread, I'm intrigued as to what you're basing it on.
So while you all have a right to an opinion, especially in a going against the grain thread, I'm intrigued as to what you're basing it on.
I think people overlook that this really was his first season as part of our first team due to years of injuries, mismanagement and loans. Also because of his size he took longer than most to be ready for PL football. He's not a teenager but he's very young in football terms due to how few senior games he's played at this level. So if this season is what he looks like when he's new to this level and the team around him is dreadful, he has huge potential.
I think Amad's biggest concern is he seems to pick up a serious injury every season and I suspect he'll end up another of our injury prone players. Each of these injuries may also take a percentage away from him physically such that he never fulfils his potential.