Going full defensive to keep the lead

[Andycoleno9]

Jose did it and Ole does it too. Why coaches do that? In last minute or two it is a good call to bring one more defender to have numbers in penalty box just in case but when you did it 10,15 minutes before the end you just invite other team to put pressure on you and you give them more chances to score from some corner or free kick.
Isn't it better to bring on creative players and keep possession? In today's game Ole could have used Mata and Pereira instead McT and James. Just to keep the ball.

I see teams like Chelsea, City, Barca...they don't stop playing in last 10 minutes when they are one goal up. They keep the ball. We allow teams to circle around penalty box.

 

[Red Stone]

Today I think it was fatigue. Players can't run forever and our team, and the midfield in particular, looked completely gassed compared to Southampton.

 

[CM]

Today I think it was fatigue. Players can't run forever and our team, and the midfield in particular, looked completely gassed compared to Southampton.

Agreed. A lot of games in quick succession was always going to catch up with us eventually. Southampton played a high energy game and we weren’t able to compete with that today. If we finished the game with 11 I think we'd have seen it out.

That said, it does highlight the need for adequate depth in the coming transfer window.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Players clearly were tired. Ole tried not to use his subs and keep them on the pitch as long as possible to kill the game and we couldn't kill the game off. After the previous discussion about Maguire & Lindelof, you are now questioning the manager's decision without being aware how exhausted they were and needed to be sub off.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Players clearly were tired. Ole tried not to use his subs and keep them on the pitch as long as possible to kill the game and we couldn't kill the game off. After the previous discussion about Maguire & Lindelof, you are now questioning the manager's decision without being aware how exhausted they were and needed to be sub off.

I am talking in general about that game plan.

 

[DevilRed]

We were knackered. It looked like they only planned 60 mins or so for pogba. He came off like he knew his time was up.

sadly Fred did what he usually does, next to nothing. A lot of free spaces for soton midfield and Fred just always seems to be chasing shadows.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I am talking in general about that game plan.

If anything this is where we were at best to use James to do the counter against the tired legs. It's just unfortunate we can't use it due to Williams being injured and forced to totally sit deep.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I am talking in general about that game plan.

Nothing wrong with trying to kill game off on the counter against a high press, if you don’t have a press-resistant team. Had either of Bruno/Pogba found their man on one of those counters and we were up 3-1, the game would’ve been over.

With that being said, we desperately need a better CB, and ideally two. Someone quick, tough and aggressive who can get out of the box and provide options when teams press our DM and fullbacks.

 

[Based Adnan]

We've calmed down after going ahead post lockdown to conserve energy.

Today we ran out of legs and it was a close game so it was difficult to control the game to see it out. Don't think this is the norm as you're trying to make out.

 

[Mainoldo]

Guess when players don’t get tired.... when they bloody keep the ball.

 

[edcunited1878]

Teams have to be able to see out leads and defend. Nothing new with that, nothing wrong with that. It was on 84 minutes, so seeing a game out for about 10 minutes. Shore up the midfield and keep everything in front of them is what United did once Southampton started pumping the ball into the box and got a corner from a Redmond shin pass. JWP has great delivery and finally put a good one that caused problems, which he's done for years now.

Kind of telling that Bailly didn't even get a look in to come on and it was McTominay and Fred. Williams came on for an injured Shaw. Maybe go three at the back will Bailly and play AWB and James as wing backs, but then not really having an outlet after going down to 10 men hurt them as Rashford had to play deeper. Going down 10 men and a defender allows Southampton to push on further and having to reorganize.

Before Williams got injured, United played 433 with Fred acting as the central pressing trigger flanked by Rashford and Martial as outlets with James tucked behind alongside Matic and McTominay.

 

[Sylar]

End of the day we didn't win due to a fantastic corner / set piece and having one less man.

Saints also deserve credit
Pereira isn't the answer and I reckon this is a good show of how we still need more for our squad (and can't rely on the same players as fatigue can happen)

 

[Andycoleno9]

If anything this is where we were at best to use James to do the counter against the tired legs. It's just unfortunate we can't use it due to Williams being injured and forced to totally sit deep.

But even then it is the same plan. Parking the bus. All in penalty box and try to find James with long ball if you can.
I just think (but what i know, right? ) that throwing in creative midfielders while having already 2 defenders who are good on the ball, would be better solution. Did you watched Palace-Chelsea game? Sure, Palace had that chance in 95th minute but apart from that they could not get a ball. Chelsea hid the ball from them

 

[Red Stone]

Guess when players don’t get tired.... when they bloody keep the ball.

Southampton are one of the best pressing teams on the planet at the moment. It's easier said than done to just keep them chasing the ball. We aren't peak Barcelona.

EDIT: Provided proof of their pressing prowess.

 

[MikeKing]

We was down to 10 men. Ole is one of the most attacking coaches I've seen honestly, and he is trying to keep the winning streak with the same players. Must have been devastating for him to have put faith in this first team 4 times in a row, ignoring plenty of advise to change it up, only to be left disappointed in the end from this game. Looked like he was about to cry honestly, and I was right there with him. However, despite agreeing that dropping deep never seem to work for us, I don't think bringing Mata or Pereira on would have changed anything at all in terms of keeping possession

 

[mancan92]

Our players were dead on their feet too many games in a short period of time with no switches.

 

[Mainoldo]

Southampton are one of the best pressing teams on the planet at the moment. It's easier said than done to just keep them chasing the ball. We aren't peak Barcelona.

EDIT: Provided proof of their pressing prowess.

There still Southampton. City overcame there press even though they lost.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

But even then it is the same plan. Parking the bus. All in penalty box and try to find James with long ball if you can.
I just think (but what i know, right? ) that throwing in creative midfielders while having already 2 defenders who are good on the ball, would be better solution. Did you watched Palace-Chelsea game? Sure, Palace had that chance in 95th minute but apart from that they could not get a ball. Chelsea hid the ball from them

You are comparing Crystal Palace with Southampton, whether you really watched Crystal Palace vs Chelsea game or you don't know what you are talking about. You should read what @InfiniteBoredom posted.

 

[Garethw]

fecking cowardly.

 

[VeevaVee]

Unless you’re having an incredibly switched on day (that Liverpool game under Jose springs to mind), ‘going defensive’ rarely works. Especially for us. The whole team contributes to defending successfully.

 

[Red Stone]

There still Southampton.

Of course. Even though I provided proof of them forcing more turnovers of possession than all but a handful of the best teams in the world my argument doesn't apply because they're just little old Southampton. Just like Leicester didn't win the league because they're just Leicester.

Also, City are better than us at retaining possession. Much, much better.

 

[TrustInOle]

I agreed with what he done. Players were leggy, down to 10 men and it was fairly evident Southampton were going to bombard our box with Long, Ings and Martins on.

Just an unlucky corner.

 

[paulscholes18]

Cost us 4 points this season by going flat out defensive in the last 10 minutes, Liverpool and tonight, Fred, Matic & McTominay are you having a laugh, who out of those are going to get on the ball and detect the play.
Felt Ighalo could have came on to help hold the ball up, even though Martial is probably fed up of not completing the full 90.

 

[ivaldo]

Fergie also did it. Hell, Pep once took off his only centre forward after 70 minutes to see a game out against us. Managers do it because most of the time it works.

 

[Yagami]

It's a problem we've had for years. As soon as a team starts applying pressure, we fold and go defensive.

I want us to play like other top teams. When they start applying pressure, we play through them/keep the ball and pin them in their half. This isn't a fitness issue as it's happened for years, and I'm starting to think we'll never have that mentality Pep brings to teams where - regardless of the score and time - we will go out to dominate a game. The managers we hire just don't seem to be capable of coaching a team to play this way.

 

[Mr Smith]

This is what cost us the win I feel. We surrendered the ball to them and lost control of the match as a result. This hasn't happened in previous matches because we've remained on the front foot and scored the goals to close out the match.

 

[Zoo]

Mata had no business being out their tonight against such a high energy team and we saw in his one appearance post-lockdown how off the pace he was. Pereira may have added energy but so can Fred and McTominay along with greater physicality and defensive nous. We simply needed that third goal.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I am not sure if people were watching a different game. Our players looked too tired. Bruno was making mistakes and Southampton were relentless in their pressure. Trying to shore up the defense seemed like a decent thing to do. To call it full on defensive or Jose style is just overreacting.

You take decisions as per the game. That's what even SAF used to do. We never went into mad attack all the time every game for full 90 mins.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

We was down to 10 men. Ole is one of the most attacking coaches I've seen honestly, and he is trying to keep the winning streak with the same players. Must have been devastating for him to have put faith in this first team 4 times in a row, ignoring plenty of advise to change it up, only to be left disappointed in the end from this game. Looked like he was about to cry honestly, and I was right there with him. However, despite agreeing that dropping deep never seem to work for us, I don't think bringing Mata or Pereira on would have changed anything at all in terms of keeping possession

Agreed, and if we'd have got away with it we could look to rotate versus Palace from a stronger position in the league. As it is we came up short this evening and look as if we'll need to make changes anyway as we looked tired and both our left backs got injured. Keeping going at full intensity with players looking to keep the ball is easier said than done when Southampton are well-organised and up for it.

We got dealt some bad cards tonight with the injuries and a last minute goal but that can happen, we're still in better form than Chelsea and Leicester and have the chance to beat the latter ourselves, so while I'm frustrated and a little worried about this strange block we have when the top four is at our mercy I'm still optimistic for a good finish.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Did we?

Only once Bruno <-> McT.

 

[Adnan]

Bruno and Pogba had to come off due to fatigue and with half a eye on up coming games. And with the drop off in quality it was the correct decision to see the game out like we did IMO. No complaints at all from me.

 

[MikeKing]

Agreed, and if we'd have got away with it we could look to rotate versus Palace from a stronger position in the league. As it is we came up short this evening and look as if we'll need to make changes anyway as we looked tired and both our left backs got injured. Keeping going at full intensity with players looking to keep the ball is easier said than done when Southampton are well-organised and up for it.

We got dealt some bad cards tonight with the injuries and a last minute goal but that can happen, we're still in better form than Chelsea and Leicester and have the chance to beat the latter ourselves, so while I'm frustrated and a little worried about this strange block we have when the top four is at our mercy I'm still optimistic for a good finish.

Good points. I'm optimistic of a good finish too, and honestly for some of these players it's really good experience, and for others it's the time to step up, foreal.

 

[mav_9me]

I agreed with what he done. Players were leggy, down to 10 men and it was fairly evident Southampton were going to bombard our box with Long, Ings and Martins on.

Just an unlucky corner.

I think it's fairly obvious that's what it was.

Can't win every game.

 

[automaticflare]

Down to 10 men not sure what else you do in this case

 

[peridigm]

Just looked at our PL draws this season. All of our score draws excluding the two 1-1's with Everton, and the Spurs draw, we either scored first or came back into a winning position only to concede to a draw late in the match. The two Everton draws and the Spurs draws were come from behind to get the draw and we had the 0-0 against Wolves.

Our defense fell asleep and was unable to protect a lead 7 out of 11 times.

 

[noodlehair]

Players clearly were tired. Ole tried not to use his subs and keep them on the pitch as long as possible to kill the game and we couldn't kill the game off. After the previous discussion about Maguire & Lindelof, you are now questioning the manager's decision without being aware how exhausted they were and needed to be sub off.

If they were exhausted he shouldn't have played the same team 5 games in a row to be fair. Fred and McTominay have proven to be good players and were sat on the bench while Matic could barely run.

I understand not changing a winning team but our midfield didn't turn up for the last game either until our forwards had already won it for us. Matic has looked leggy for three games now.

And I keep saying this but if the midfield was tired, leaving Pogba there on his own instead of using Fred or McTominay was just plain stupid.

 

[noodlehair]

Just looked at our PL draws this season. All of our score draws excluding the two 1-1's with Everton, and the Spurs draw, we either scored first or came back into a winning position only to concede to a draw late in the match. The two Everton draws and the Spurs draws were come from behind to get the draw and we had the 0-0 against Wolves.

Our defense fell asleep and was unable to protect a lead 7 out of 11 times.

There's been a few games we've won like Chelsea away and Watford at home where they've conceded idiotic goals from set pieces when a goal up as well, only for VAR to bail us out.

We can't defend under pressure and tonight we set ourselves up to be put under pressure. Bonkers.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

If they were exhausted he shouldn't have played the same team 5 games in a row to be fair. Fred and McTominay have proven to be good players and were sat on the bench while Matic could barely run.

I understand not changing a winning team but our midfield didn't turn up for the last game either until our forwards had already won it for us. Matic has looked leggy for three games now.

And I keep saying this but if the midfield was tired, leaving Pogba there on his own instead of using Fred or McTominay was just plain stupid.

As what I mentioned in the post, the point was to kill the game off as early as possible and it's been working effectively in our previous games. Today we wasted the chances & couldn't finish them off. We often trying to go 2 or 3 lead goals difference before we're making change. I think it's the right choice. Shaw got injured, Williams got injured and down to 10 men and poor mentality to conceded easy goal.

 

[noodlehair]

As what I mentioned in the post, the point was to kill the game off as early as possible and it's been working effectively in our previous games. Today we wasted the chances & couldn't finish them off. We often trying to go 2 or 3 lead goals difference before we're making change. I think it's the right choice. Shaw got injured, Williams went injured and down to 10 men and poor mentality to conceded easy goal.

Not really. Tonight's game was nothing like the previous few where we were playing poorer teams who basically gave up as soon as they went behind.

We were under pressure almost the entire game and our "midfield" set up clearly wasn't working from the very first minute.

Matic, Pogba and Fernandes have imposed themselves on previous games until the Villa one. Tonight one of them was at centreback and the other was often further forward than our front three, whie Pogba was fighting three players on his own.

The set up was very obviously wrong and we didn't change it at any point. We were quite lucky to end up a goal up in the first place as we were second best in the first half. Second half we had a few chances on the break but it was all quite desperate. The chances were down to Rashford and Martial creating things all of their own accord rather than being given anything resembling decent service or us having any platform in the game.

The Fred/Pogba change was just plain dumb. We needed more control on the game and instead we did the opposite. If we didn't have the players to do anything about it fair enough, but we did. I'd expect Ole to use his players effectively. Not have midfielders sitting on the bench and playing in defence/up front, while there is a big gaping hole in our midfield and Pogba is trying to plug it on his own. It's not really rocket science to be honest which is why it's so annyoing. Use players to their strengths and manage the game based on what is happening in it, not on what happened in the game 2 weeks ago against a completely different opponent.

 

[MikeKing]

Matic, Pogba and Fernandes have imposed themselves on previous games until the Villa one. Tonight one of them was at centreback and the other was often further forward than our front three, whie Pogba was fighting three players on his own.

That's kind of an elaborate way of excusing Pogba for not showing up in midfield, isn't it