Golf 2021

[RexHamilton]

With the PGA tour season under way and the European tour starting next week, as well as a couple of high profile incidents already this year, it seems like a good time to start a 2021 thread.

Anyone have any predictions for the year? Easy to say after winning the Masters in November, I know, but I think we’ll see DJ kick on this year and add another major. He’s been consistently at top 5 golfer over the last decade.Took a while to win his first major and then another long spell before his second, but I really think that’s the monkey off his back. He should have at least one more already.

Golf seems to be cutting ties with Trump, at an official level anyway with the 2022 USPGA being moved from his course in Bedminster and the R&A ruling out going back to Turnberry for the Open.

Justin Thomas in a spot of bother at the minute too. A homophobic slur (the f word), caught on camera after a missed putt has drawn a lot of criticism his way. I’ve just read that Ralph Lauren are cutting ties with him over it. What are people’s thoughts? A slip of the tongue and an over reaction or is he getting what he deserves?

 

[Man of Leisure]

Justin Thomas in a spot of bother at the minute too. A homophobic slur (the f word), caught on camera after a missed putt has drawn a lot of criticism his way. I’ve just read that Ralph Lauren are cutting ties with him over it. What are people’s thoughts? A slip of the tongue and an over reaction or is he getting what he deserves?

Read about that, what an odd thing to say... disappointing from Justin.

 

[calodo2003]

Read about that, what an odd thing to say... disappointing from Justin.

Very much so. Some will call it ‘cancel culture,’ but Ralph Lauren did the right thing by dropping his sponsorship.

He said all the correct platitudes during his nect press conference, but more needs to be done by him.

 

[calodo2003]

With the PGA tour season under way and the European tour starting next week, as well as a couple of high profile incidents already this year, it seems like a good time to start a 2021 thread.

Anyone have any predictions for the year? Easy to say after winning the Masters in November, I know, but I think we’ll see DJ kick on this year and add another major. He’s been consistently at top 5 golfer over the last decade.Took a while to win his first major and then another long spell before his second, but I really think that’s the monkey off his back. He should have at least one more already.

Golf seems to be cutting ties with Trump, at an official level anyway with the 2022 USPGA being moved from his course in Bedminster and the R&A ruling out going back to Turnberry for the Open.

Justin Thomas in a spot of bother at the minute too. A homophobic slur (the f word), caught on camera after a missed putt has drawn a lot of criticism his way. I’ve just read that Ralph Lauren are cutting ties with him over it. What are people’s thoughts? A slip of the tongue and an over reaction or is he getting what he deserves?

It’s disappointing, but it’s what he deserves. RL left an opening to re-up with JT, but JT needs to atone for his mistake. Ralph Lauren’s image is also at stake here. They did the right thing.

 

[mariachi-19]

With the PGA tour season under way and the European tour starting next week, as well as a couple of high profile incidents already this year, it seems like a good time to start a 2021 thread.

Anyone have any predictions for the year? Easy to say after winning the Masters in November, I know, but I think we’ll see DJ kick on this year and add another major. He’s been consistently at top 5 golfer over the last decade.Took a while to win his first major and then another long spell before his second, but I really think that’s the monkey off his back. He should have at least one more already.

Golf seems to be cutting ties with Trump, at an official level anyway with the 2022 USPGA being moved from his course in Bedminster and the R&A ruling out going back to Turnberry for the Open.

Justin Thomas in a spot of bother at the minute too. A homophobic slur (the f word), caught on camera after a missed putt has drawn a lot of criticism his way. I’ve just read that Ralph Lauren are cutting ties with him over it. What are people’s thoughts? A slip of the tongue and an over reaction or is he getting what he deserves?

He'll need to do more than just a simply apology to get around that.

To gay people it is as bad as the N-word to people of colour.

 

[RexHamilton]

Yeah, I absolutely agree. It's what he deserves.

Decent win for Kevin Na yesterday.

Glad to see the European tour back this week. The next couple of weeks draw some of the best fields of the year for the European Tour.

 

[BluesJr]

I hope Justin sits on it for a little bit and truly learns about why that word is so wrong. So weird he’d go to that word over any others at that moment.

 

[Rams]

Did I see Patrick Reed cheat again last night?

 

[One Night Only]

Did I see Patrick Reed cheat again last night?

Yes, more than once too.

 

[calodo2003]

The HBO two part documentary on Tiger was very good - didn’t whitewash his father & showed how much of a twat he really was & didn’t pull any punches on Tiger either, spent ample time on the different phases of his life. Quality watch.

 

[RexHamilton]

The HBO two part documentary on Tiger was very good - didn’t whitewash his father & showed how much of a twat he really was & didn’t pull any punches on Tiger either, spent ample time on the different phases of his life. Quality watch.

I’ve just got around to watching both episodes tonight. I thought it was really good. The focus on the affairs probably got a little more time that I felt they needed, but sex sells I suppose. And it was a huge story at the time.

That Masters win in 2019 along with the 2018 Tour Championship were box office golf. It was a different Tiger to the one we grew up watching, but when you get to the back 9 on Sunday, he was the same old killer. They also only serve to prove, for me, that if his career hadn’t fallen off a cliff for numerous reasons, he’d have beaten Nicklaus’ 18 majors at his ease.

For me, it’s not even a debate that he’s the greatest player in history. Golf was a different game, an elitist sport with a much smaller playing pool in Nicklaus’ time. But while Nicklaus has more majors, it’ll always be up for discussion.

 

[calodo2003]

I’ve just got around to watching both episodes tonight. I thought it was really good. The focus on the affairs probably got a little more time that I felt they needed, but sex sells I suppose. And it was a huge story at the time.

That Masters win in 2019 along with the 2018 Tour Championship were box office golf. It was a different Tiger to the one we grew up watching, but when you get to the back 9 on Sunday, he was the same old killer. They also only serve to prove, for me, that if his career hadn’t fallen off a cliff for numerous reasons, he’d have beaten Nicklaus’ 18 majors at his ease.

For me, it’s not even a debate that he’s the greatest player in history. Golf was a different game, an elitist sport with a much smaller playing pool in Nicklaus’ time. But while Nicklaus has more majors, it’ll always be up for discussion.

I agree with almost everything except who’s is better. I don’t think there’s any daylight between the two. I think it’s proper to say Tiger is the best modern era golfer, Jack is the best ______ era golfer (whatever term is the most applicable). While you are absolutely correct that the sport was smaller, there was a larger percentage of elite golfers Jack had to contend with for longer periods of time than Tiger (I’ll try to find the article that used golf ranking coefficients to prove this - the elite players that Jack had to play against were impressive - Watson, Palmer, Player, Trevino, Floyd, Irwin, Miller, & to a lesser extent Casper, Jacklin, Thompson, & Green plus a few more - all multiple time major winners & double digit tournament winners during a smaller yearly schedule with significant overlap; there also is the matter, as you stated, of 17% less majors; Jack also has twenty or more seconds in majors; Jack also severely curtailed his career during large stretches of his time, not always due to injury / flip side is Tiger’s overall tourney victories, Vardon trophies, & amateur career / Jack was far better in the Ryder Cup & on & on back and forth). Course conditions & equipment play a part as does modernity in travel & rehab

It’s a fun debate, no doubt, just don’t think there’s daylight between the two. There’s numerous websites out there that showcase the debate. It’s breathtaking how good each of these two golfers are & probably best we didn’t see a Messi / Ronaldo scenario with them. It was fitting the torch was symbolically passed from Jack to Tiger at St. Andrews in 2000.

If Tiger hadn’t have self-sabotaged the middle of his career, he probably would have won 23 / 24 majors, maybe 25? Then there’s debate, but that didn’t happen. The actuality of events was different. I would like to see Tiger close the 17% major deficit with Jack from here, but he really could only do it at Augusta or some select courses on the Open rota & time’s against him.

Jack was the best ‘older era’ golfer, Tiger the best modern golfer, Nelson was perhaps the best of the rest (but that race is probably even tighter than Nicklaus v Tiger, who the third best golfer of all time is potentially has fifteen, twenty possibilities, many listed above).

That’s one of the beauties of golf, that it does allow somewhat for different era player quality debates.

 

[RexHamilton]

I agree with almost everything except who’s is better. I don’t think there’s any daylight between the two. I think it’s proper to say Tiger is the best modern era golfer, Jack is the best ______ era golfer (whatever term is the most applicable). While you are absolutely correct that the sport was smaller, there was a larger percentage of elite golfers Jack had to contend with for longer periods of time than Tiger (I’ll try to find the article that used golf ranking coefficients to prove this - the elite players that Jack had to play against were impressive - Watson, Palmer, Player, Trevino, Floyd, Irwin, Miller, & to a lesser extent Casper, Jacklin, Thompson, & Green plus a few more - all multiple time major winners & double digit tournament winners during a smaller yearly schedule with significant overlap; there also is the matter, as you stated, of 17% less majors; Jack also has twenty or more seconds in majors; Jack also severely curtailed his career during large stretches of his time, not always due to injury / flip side is Tiger’s overall tourney victories, Vardon trophies, & amateur career / Jack was far better in the Ryder Cup & on & on back and forth). Course conditions & equipment play a part as does modernity in travel & rehab

It’s a fun debate, no doubt, just don’t think there’s daylight between the two. There’s numerous websites out there that showcase the debate. It’s breathtaking how good each of these two golfers are & probably best we didn’t see a Messi / Ronaldo scenario with them. It was fitting the torch was symbolically passed from Jack to Tiger at St. Andrews in 2000.

If Tiger hadn’t have self-sabotaged the middle of his career, he probably would have won 23 / 24 majors, maybe 25? Then there’s debate, but that didn’t happen. The actuality of events was different. I would like to see Tiger close the 17% major deficit with Jack from here, but he really could only do it at Augusta or some select courses on the Open rota & time’s against him.

Jack was the best ‘older era’ golfer, Tiger the best modern golfer, Nelson was perhaps the best of the rest (but that race is probably even tighter than Nicklaus v Tiger, who the third best golfer of all time is potentially has fifteen, twenty possibilities, many listed above).

That’s one of the beauties of golf, that it does allow somewhat for different era player quality debates.

Oh absolutely, as I said, while he’s behind in the numbers, it’s always up for debate. And, as I said, it was just in my view.

I don’t think Ryder cup should be mentioned, though. Jack played in an area where it was the US vs UK & Ireland and the US were utterly dominant. The move to a US v Europe made it a lot more competitive, but I think Jack played in only one of those.

As regards to your point about a larger percentage being "elite golfers" and multiple major winners, for me (And I stress, this is just my opinion, I haven't looked into these coefficients) that only backs up my point. The game was more niche and elite, so less players were really at the top level, so more players at the time had multiple majors. There were, undoubtedly some terrific players in Jack's era, but for me, the pool of terrific golfers was far, far smaller than today.

I suppose, you could argue that Jack beat better players and won 18 majors at the tail end of Arnie's career while Gary player won 9, Tom Watson won 8, Lee Trevino won 6, Seve won 5, Ray Floyd with 4, And Billy Casper, Hale Irwin and Larry Nelson won 3 each.

While in Tiger's era, he had to compete with Phil winning 5 and Ernie winning 4 and maybe adding in Vijay and Harrington's 3 each.

So looking at that you could argue that Jack was competing against better players (With more majors) and beat them, still winning 18. But I'd argue that that only enhances, my point. The top players of Tiger's era only managed 5, 4 and 3. In my opinion, that's for two reasons, Tiger's dominance and stronger fields.

I just think that since 2000 onwards, the standard is so good that there are so many really top players that Majors are even harder to win.

 

[calodo2003]

Oh absolutely, as I said, while he’s behind in the numbers, it’s always up for debate. And, as I said, it was just in my view.

I don’t think Ryder cup should be mentioned, though. Jack played in an area where it was the US vs UK & Ireland and the US were utterly dominant. The move to a US v Europe made it a lot more competitive, but I think Jack played in only one of those.

As regards to your point about a larger percentage being "elite golfers" and multiple major winners, for me (And I stress, this is just my opinion, I haven't looked into these coefficients) that only backs up my point. The game was more niche and elite, so less players were really at the top level, so more players at the time had multiple majors. There were, undoubtedly some terrific players in Jack's era, but for me, the pool of terrific golfers was far, far smaller than today.

I suppose, you could argue that Jack beat better players and won 18 majors at the tail end of Arnie's career while Gary player won 9, Tom Watson won 8, Lee Trevino won 6, Seve won 5, Ray Floyd with 4, And Billy Casper, Hale Irwin and Larry Nelson won 3 each.

While in Tiger's era, he had to compete with Phil winning 5 and Ernie winning 4 and maybe adding in Vijay and Harrington's 3 each.

So looking at that you could argue that Jack was competing against better players (With more majors) and beat them, still winning 18. But I'd argue that that only enhances, my point. The top players of Tiger's era only managed 5, 4 and 3. In my opinion, that's for two reasons, Tiger's dominance and stronger fields.

I just think that since 2000 onwards, the standard is so good that there are so many really top players that Majors are even harder to win.

That’s why the debate is so good. I’ve had this with rabid Tiger fanbois who froth at the mouth when Jack is brought up & it revolves quickly. I very much appreciate your style in this debate, very refreshing. The overall effect on golf by both Jack & Tiger is rather similar from a playing perspective. Both causes quantum changes in course architecture due to their power, both were very impactful in rapid equipment enhancement (Jack actually started playing at the end of the era when golf balls were hit multiple times ahead of being used in tournaments due to their variability; there were balls that were hotter than others. Many pros prior to Jack would X-ray golf balls to see which ones had tighter winding that would translate into power & looser winding for touch. Jack also played a part in the R & A eschewing the smaller ball due to how well he played with it. There’s some talk that Tiger actually ramped up the timeframe Titleist’s ground breaking ‘Professional’ series release was morphing into the ‘Pro V1’ series. I was an assistant pro back in mid 1999 & we had Titleist come to our course for a few days to let both local pros & our members hit what was to become the first gen Pro V1; it was cool, the ball only was stamped with the logo, no other markings gave away what it was. They completely switched out our range balls with them, close to a thousand balls, & left them for us when they left. That’s was quite a haul for a lowly assistant, over a hundred virtually mint Titleist Pro V1s, only hit a dozen times at the most).

For as impactful as both Tiger & Jack was for the game, it’s impressive to realize that Palmer probably eclipsed both in terms of overall impact & raising golf’s stature inside this country. This also sends rabid Tiger followers into a frenzy, but Tiger has stated multiple times that he wouldn’t be where he was without Palmer.

Good chat, hadn’t done this in a while. Thankfully golf allows for as close an ability to accurately & objectively compare players in different eras any professional sport allows.

One thing I did appreciate with the Tiger doc was the frank discussion of Earl Woods & his impact, both positively & negatively, on Tiger. He has tended to get a pass by many in the past regarding his deleterious effects on his son. That speech he gave that starts both episodes is about as embarrassingly cringe as a speech could get. His son just hit a small ball into a small hole at the end of the day.

 

[calodo2003]

Tiger currently in surgery after suffering leg injuries in a single car rollover crash.

 

[calodo2003]

Going to be interesting seeing a ‘typical’ Augusta National this week, especially with the trucked in azaleas & blue dye water.

The course will play somewhat different than November. No overseed to worry about, a faster course, a firmer course, all more traditional for The Masters.

 

[Thunderhead]

yay Masters time, I'm backing Thomas and Reed, think it could be a great tourney this year, loads of players coming into form.


How's everyone's golf going, we've only been allowed to play for a week and I've lost 10-20 years on driving with not having swung a club for 5 months.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

yay Masters time, I'm backing Thomas and Reed, think it could be a great tourney this year, loads of players coming into form.


How's everyone's golf going, we've only been allowed to play for a week and I've lost 10-20 years on driving with not having swung a club for 5 months.

Light-years?

 

[Thunderhead]

Light-years?

haha yeah, yards natch, it's wierd I know I'm getting older but distance has dropped dramatically, hoping it's just swing speed has dipped but will come back up more I play

 

[Tarrou]

Spieth at 10/1 and Morikawa at 30/1

 

[calodo2003]

www.masters.com

Great website.

 

[Deery]

Going for DJ (15/2) again this year when he strings a few birdies together no one can stop him, for an outside chance I’d go for Fitzpatrick (33/1) he seems to have a good head on him for pressure.

 

[BD]

Would love for Rory to win tomorrow, or at least going into Sunday in contention.

 

[Deery]

Would love for Rory to win tomorrow, or at least going into Sunday in contention.

Not like Rory he’s more likely to get off to a stinker then rally with a few world class holes to put himself in contention or avoid the cut.

 

[Buchan]

Based on the statistics and trends over the last ten Masters, I’ve got a shortlist of five what I think are decent value bets at the minute: Schauffele (20/1), Cantlay (18/1), Berger (33/1), Simpson (35/1) and Oosthuizen (55/1). Fancy one (or a couple ) of those to go close come Sunday evening.

Looking forward to a great weekend ahead.

 

[diarm]

I fancy Casey and Morikawa this week. Rahm and Cantlay as well, but the first are the two I've had a dabble on.

 

[thebelfastboy]

Backed fleetwood and Morikawa

 

[RexHamilton]

I’ve gone for Brooks. His knee is broken, but he’s there. If he’s able to get around the course, 25/1 is a good price. If not, well it won’t be the first bet I’ve lost. Have Lowry backed too.

 

[calodo2003]

Number four is playing difficult today. I’ve played it twice, worst score was a bogey.

 

[Zen]

Number four is playing difficult today. I’ve played it twice, worst score was a bogey.

Wait - you've played Augusta twice? That's pretty goddamn sweet, how'd you get in?


Also, whens Bryson teeing off already? Should of been 1836 no? But Sky not showing him at all... got him in the Birdies for a £1 on SkyBet. Also what are these Jordan Shoes Watsons wearing. Holy hell.

 

[cyberman]

On

Wait - you've played Augusta twice? That's pretty goddamn sweet, how'd you get in?


Also, whens Bryson teeing off already? Should of been 1836 no? But Sky not showing him at all... got him in the Birdies for a £1 on SkyBet. Also what are these Jordan Shoes Watsons wearing. Holy hell.

Only featured group allowed to be broadcast before half 7. Its such a shit way of working

 

[calodo2003]

Wait - you've played Augusta twice? That's pretty goddamn sweet, how'd you get in?


Also, whens Bryson teeing off already? Should of been 1836 no? But Sky not showing him at all... got him in the Birdies for a £1 on SkyBet. Also what are these Jordan Shoes Watsons wearing. Holy hell.

I worked the 1997 tournament (Tiger’s first win) as the floor manager in the pro shop behind the fifth green. I fell back asswards into the yearly press corps’ shotgun tournament on Monday. There were many frost delays that week, there was a bad one on Monday AM, so the press tourney start was delayed until 100P. There were many drop outs due to flights, so for pacing issues & to give a perk to a bunch of employees who worked three weeks, they told us to grab our sticks & get to a specific tee. I actually started on this hole. Had to play off the member’s tees, but the course was set up in the same method as every tournament day, the pins were still in the same locations. Got around in 83 with an amazing caddie.

The second time was in 2003 due to a connection from where I worked at the time (played with a scion of the Firestone family who was a member). It was in early May, the course was in member condition, but still amazing, a tad damp, though. I was able to play the Par 3 course twice that day, before & after the round as well as properly warm up, yet gave up keeping score as it was a challenge off of the tips. Probably shot around 88.

 

[calodo2003]

Brooks currently imploding.

 

[RORY65]

Brooks currently imploding.

Him playing this event only 3 weeks after knee surgery is bizarre, the chances were and probably still are higher that he would pull out than be seriously competitive.

 

[calodo2003]

Him playing this event only 3 weeks after knee surgery is bizarre, the chances were and probably still are higher that he would pull out than be seriously competitive.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he pulls out after today’s round.

 

[Deery]

Brooks currently imploding.

McIlroy currently 5 over and just hit the sink..

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Have a 20/1 bet on a bogey free round for Morikawa . Seems unlikely on a day like this but hopefully it keeps me engaged till the back 9.

 

[calodo2003]

McIlroy currently 5 over and just hit the sink..

I obviously motivated Brooks, back to back birdies.

And Rory hit his father on an approach.

 

[RORY65]

McIlroy currently 5 over and just hit the sink..

His game is a mess, he's finally decided that he wants to fix his flaws so has got a new coach in but that probably has made things worse in the short-term as they break it down to build it back up again.

 

[calodo2003]

His game is a mess, he's finally decided that he wants to fix his flaws so has got a new coach in but that probably has made things worse in the short-term as they break it down to build it back up again.

In the quest for more distance, his tempo & connectivity is all fecked.

It’s a similar path that many greats have gone down.