This is a good post. Agree 100%
Graeme Souness: Pogba can't be trusted and should be used as impact sub
- Thread starter K2K
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Souness pretty much knows that the only way he can stay relevant in this modern era is by criticising Pogba. The newspapers get the hits they want and he's getting publicity, win-win for everyone. Otherwise this obsession is just getting bizarre.
Then how did Pogba have his best season for Juve once Pirlo and Vidal left? And if it is so easy to shine for Juve why isn't their another midfielder for Juve getting the type of plaudits Pogba did when he was there.
People are complaining as usual with pundits, but he’s not far wrong. I wouldn’t be benching him, but you can’t trust him to put in consistent performances or make the right decisions at the moment, regardless of what happened years ago at Juve.
Pogba is the kind of talent that stands out like a sore thumb so of course he gets the plaudits. However there's a huge difference between standing out and performing consistently fantastically. Scholes and Carrick have never been flashy or gotten tons of plaudits but the former was the best midfielder the PL has seen and the latter was only a level below. Both reached a level Pogba hasnt yet seen despite having more plaudits than both combined.
At Juventus he always had a huge safety net and was resolved of a huge amount of responsibilities that every central midfielder needs to be aware of and master. This lack of mental development has hurt him considerably in my view.
I'd argue with your best season assertion as 14-15 he was scoring at a 1/3 ratio and helping his team to the CL final, but even if you believe 15-16 was his best year he had Khedira and Marchisio doing all the dirty work.
You might not agree but Pogba mentally is still a 21 year old. In my view that's because from leaving Old Trafford he had zero improvement in the mental side of the game. The only other option is that he's mentally a very weak player, but given some of the things I've seen him do I don't believe that.
Yep. A rare occasion, where most Manchester United and Liverpool fans can agree.
He has a point though. United and France needs consistent perfomances from Pogba.
He works for the biggest broadcaster in the UK and has done for over a decade. His relevance isn't dependent on Paul Pogba. He clearly just dislikes the guy in the same way he used to batter the Arsenal players before it was popular to slag them off, or more famously, Francesco Totti. Rightly or wrongly he takes a big judge on personality not just off the field but on it. He would tell you players make tactics work not vice versa.
Even without watching United, you can tell that what Souness says isn't that far off the mark just by the fact that barely anyone disagreed with him, instead going for the ad hominem.
So true. After we beat City at the Etihad, Henry praised Pogba and Sounness looked personally offended.
He also stormed off Sky this season in a non-Pogba related incident.
The man has issues and shouldn't be on television.
We complain about Sounness because he's a bitter old clown with anger issues and vendettas/agendas.
I guess it's not insane to think this could be France's best midfield trio in a scrap of a knockout game or against a slick-passing Peru side:
-Tolisso-Kante-
----N'Zonzi----
Since Tolisso seems a bit more aware and energetic defensively than Pogba, but can also provide a threat on late runs in to the box and Kante is free to go chase and win the ball and N'Zonzi is a proper holding mid who can play a pass and let the CBs carry the ball.
But Pogba is incredibly talented and that midfield 3 above is really lacking in terms of creative and long passing and since Payet is probably the only guy comparable in the squad for France and would be at least as flighty as Pogba, I definitely think the above trio should be plan B if Pogba is in bad form or they can't make it work.
-Tolisso-Kante-
----N'Zonzi----
Since Tolisso seems a bit more aware and energetic defensively than Pogba, but can also provide a threat on late runs in to the box and Kante is free to go chase and win the ball and N'Zonzi is a proper holding mid who can play a pass and let the CBs carry the ball.
But Pogba is incredibly talented and that midfield 3 above is really lacking in terms of creative and long passing and since Payet is probably the only guy comparable in the squad for France and would be at least as flighty as Pogba, I definitely think the above trio should be plan B if Pogba is in bad form or they can't make it work.
The caf complains about Scholes and Neville regularly too, even when they’re right.
Neville can be right on certain topics. Generally alright although is biased towards his old mates and that clouds his judgement.
Scholes can be a grump but generally I don't have too much of a problem with his punditry.
Lampard, Henry, Rio are great. Even Gerrard is tolerable. Carragher used to be ok.
Can't stand Sounness. Bitter old fool. He's way too biased for me to take seriously.
Deschamps disagree
France is a top squad with plenty of depth so Pogba isn't necessarily a first choice player for them when you think of how the team will function against particular opposition. Do you want your midfield to be a balanced unit or have two holding mids with a wild card like Pogba who will float and say ahead of the other two mids?
With United, Jose approaches each match differently and will change the team and tactics accordingly. Pogba has shown he can be very flexible in how he needs to play for the team (and not himself or his instincts), but his discipline over 90 minutes frustrates many. Pogba has the capacity to be disciplined in a midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 type setup. But then his role for the team has changed and he's able to influence the match further away from goal. Then people will have a go at Jose about formation, etc. And same is true if Pogba is further up the pitch (i.e. his output of goals and assists should be higher).
Overall, Pogba gets far to much criticism. His flexibility to play in a midfield 2 or 3 and still have a very positive influence on the match is unappreciated. He's also the main player opposing teams have to center their tactics around. If you don't contain Pogba, like other top class midfielders, you're going to have a long day.
With United, Jose approaches each match differently and will change the team and tactics accordingly. Pogba has shown he can be very flexible in how he needs to play for the team (and not himself or his instincts), but his discipline over 90 minutes frustrates many. Pogba has the capacity to be disciplined in a midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 type setup. But then his role for the team has changed and he's able to influence the match further away from goal. Then people will have a go at Jose about formation, etc. And same is true if Pogba is further up the pitch (i.e. his output of goals and assists should be higher).
Overall, Pogba gets far to much criticism. His flexibility to play in a midfield 2 or 3 and still have a very positive influence on the match is unappreciated. He's also the main player opposing teams have to center their tactics around. If you don't contain Pogba, like other top class midfielders, you're going to have a long day.
The problem isn't that he can't do it. The problem is that he doesn't want to.
I'm not a fan of Souness but I share his frustration when it comes to Pogba. In any role in any team sport, a player has a responsibility to do the basics of his role. Pogba can't be trusted to do that. It's a selfish egotistical attitude that helps nobody.
He has the talent to be one of the best central midfield players of all time in a midfield 2 or 3. He started the season brilliantly in a 2 but then just decided he didn't want to do it any more.
Now, at United, instead of 4 more attacking players than Pogba it is only 3 and the team struggles to score.
He's not productive enough to be the creative fulcrum of the team and not disciplined enough to play a deeper role. He is an incredibly talented player but not a very effective one. The frustration is that it would be so easy for him to be far more effective but he doesn't want to do what is required.
Yeah, well after two seasons of somewhat underperforming Souness may just be on to something.
He is obsessed with Pogba, but to be fair he is usually right in some points about him.
He can't carry a midfield as he's too erratic, too inconsistent and in midfield you need reliance, someone you can trust.
You look at the best CM's over the years, Keane, Scholes, Gerrard, Modric, Kroos, Pirlo, etc, they all do the basics correct first and then bring their world class attributes out to influence games secondly.
Pogba does it the wrong way round, he tries to win games with a gambling style of play and often games pass him by and he looks confused that someones managed to tackled him when he's tried to audaciously turn someone on the edge of our box.
Sometimes he gets man of the matches because he is incredibly talented and can play people off the park, and sometimes he's annonymous. A bit like constantly putting money on black and red at Roulette.
Hopefully with a more solid midfield around him in Fred + one more possibly he can have license to be the player he tries to be. Hopefully he also learns when to play it simple and when to play Hollywood football.
He can't carry a midfield as he's too erratic, too inconsistent and in midfield you need reliance, someone you can trust.
You look at the best CM's over the years, Keane, Scholes, Gerrard, Modric, Kroos, Pirlo, etc, they all do the basics correct first and then bring their world class attributes out to influence games secondly.
Pogba does it the wrong way round, he tries to win games with a gambling style of play and often games pass him by and he looks confused that someones managed to tackled him when he's tried to audaciously turn someone on the edge of our box.
Sometimes he gets man of the matches because he is incredibly talented and can play people off the park, and sometimes he's annonymous. A bit like constantly putting money on black and red at Roulette.
Hopefully with a more solid midfield around him in Fred + one more possibly he can have license to be the player he tries to be. Hopefully he also learns when to play it simple and when to play Hollywood football.
Henderson can't be trusted and should be used as an impact sub.
This is very well put and the key part for me about Souness and many pundits from his school of thinking. They come from a culture where the tactics were more straight forward and the game came down to the individual's quality and mentality. There was a famous story about one of those Liverpool players (could be Souness himself) and how when he was first transferred, he asked the manager about his role, the manager responded with something along the lines of "we spent a fortune on you, you figure it out". Obviously this does not mean that in Souness's time, there was no tactics but the balance and responsibility was much more tilted to the players' side. To be fair to him, many in the English game share that fundamental view which is why it does not sit with them when it is suggested that the team needs to help x player or that the system needs to be suited to them.
I personally think that stopping individuals from performing through tactical discipline has gotten so much better over the years. The difference is especially felt when comparing mid table and lower sides who now can be much more tactically disciplined in their movement and positioning rendering individual quality on its own less significant. This is why the importance of setup and coaching has increased to counter that. This does not mean however that some players are simply lacking in certain aspects, the problem is unless you are an expert, it really is difficult, if not impossible to tell. It is such fine details and we have seen so many times players looking better or worse under different circumstances. In the case of Pogba, I used to feel that he, like many top players, simply needs more help but I am not sure anymore. The fact that Mourinho and Deschamps seem to have serious reservations about him suggests deeper issues, most likely mentally and match-intelligence since technically, he is quite obviously superb.
He is just clueless. Some of his analysis on Pogba (especially the one where he went off injured after 19 mins in CL) is just pathetic and makes him look like a tool, which he already is.
Spot on
He is the most talented, yes. But he is not the best. He has the potential to be the best, but he isn't. What Pogba is the best at is marketing. He has convinced everybody that he is the real deal without actually doing a whole lot. But he is close. My only concern is that the missing ingredients with Pogba can only be supplied by the big guy in Oz and unfortunately those attributes were already taken up by the scarecrow and the Tinman...
He's an ex Liverpool player and their legend. Enuff said. I'd take any scouser and Liverpool players/ex-players words of our players with a pinch of salt.
He also won 5 league titles and 3 European cups and played at 3 world cups as a central midfielder.
He's got a point about Pogba, last season he didn't deliver what he should for a so called world class midfielder
When Pirlo, Vidal and Pogba were in the midfield, Juventus walked the league
When Pirlo and Vidal left, they walked the league
When Pogba left, they walked the league.
It's easy for a player like Pogba to look world class in a team built over many years to dominate a poor league.
Different task altogether Pogba attempting to be the main man to spearhead a squad in obvious transition to glory. He needs a well drilled, world class squad around him. Hopefully signing the likes of Fred will help him.
I'd like to see him do the basics right, his decision making to improve dramatically, knowing when to turn his man and when to play a simple pass, when to play a hollywood ball, when to go forward - these are all things he does sometimes brilliantly, sometimes awfully. Hence he will get man of the match one week, and look foolish the next.
When Pogba joined Juve they had just one their first title in 9 years. And all World Class players tend to need a World Class squad around but, it only becomes a criticism for Pogba.
Too many myths busted, not good for the narrative that few on CAF trying to set.
Bitterness and deep rooted jealousy I'm thinking
and since Pogba has left they have gone on to continue winning successive titles. They have won titles with and without him.
It becomes a criticism for Pogba because his decision making is incredibly poor. He's in my opinion our most talented player alongside DDG, but his decision making lets him down.
The ability to know when to try take 4 players on, when to hit 60 yard passes, when to slow the pace down, where to position yourself when the opponents have the ball, when to make forward runs, these are all areas that make him need world class players around him more than other players do. This is why it's hard to trust him in big games.
Luckily at Juventus they had a world class defence, goalkeeper, midfield and attack, which allowed Pogba to be able to make his gambling decisions, which would result in lots of good moments, and a lot of bad moments, and his mistakes wouldn't get punished because of how good the other 10 players were.
At United, he makes the same gambling choices and at times drops his team in danger, and at times puts in man of the match performances, difference is, here, he doesn't have a well oiled world class team to bail him out when he makes the same mistakes.
I'm looking forward to our squad getting better around him which will allow him to play with his freedom at Juve, and also hopefully with a more mature approach at decision making. He's a class player.
Deschamp's biggest problem is I don't think he can get the best out of both Pogba and Griezmann, unless he switches to a back three and potentially drops the wingers.
If he decides to build the team around Griezmann, then deciding Pogba isn't disciplined enough in a deeper role and dropping him wouldn't be out of the question, given he's got the option to bring the more disciplined N'Zonzi or the more tactically aware Matuidi in for him.
If he decides to build the team around Griezmann, then deciding Pogba isn't disciplined enough in a deeper role and dropping him wouldn't be out of the question, given he's got the option to bring the more disciplined N'Zonzi or the more tactically aware Matuidi in for him.
He will start for France for now because his creaivity is unique but his position has never been more in doubt than now.
Soueness is just following the grain, many media are pushing hard for him to be dropped
Soueness is just following the grain, many media are pushing hard for him to be dropped
This guy is just a mess..
Can't stand all this overdone Pogba criticism. Yes, sometimes he's driving me crazy as well but on other days he's comfortably 1-2 levels above most other players on the pitch. Needs to bring consistency to his game though. However, selling/benching him would be just stupid!
Can't stand all this overdone Pogba criticism. Yes, sometimes he's driving me crazy as well but on other days he's comfortably 1-2 levels above most other players on the pitch. Needs to bring consistency to his game though. However, selling/benching him would be just stupid!
Bump
More of the Pogba we saw tonight in a Utd shirt please. Hopefully if we stay in the title race a bit longer, he'll have the motivation to be the player most of us know he can be.
It makes sense that Souness was an absolute joke of a manager.
Great bump 
I know this is nothing more than your opinion but if it were in fact the case that Pogba required us to be in a title race in order to be fully motivated then I'd find myself agreeing with Graeme Souness which is a sad thought.
I think it’s true of Pogba. Though it appeared to be an attitude shared by many of the players last season. Sadly.